Thanks for the advice(giving up on UP/PD)

[unschoolinmom]

Though I'm still going to read Kohn's UP book, I think I am going to give up on trying to do this. I've only been at it for a month, but no one is happy, including me. I am actually to the point now that I'm more miserable with my children than when I was giving punishments.

I guess I'm just not a good enough mom to do this. I usually have patience, but I can't do this anymore. I want to enjoy my children and the lives we have together, not look at them and just want to run away.

Thanks again for the advice.

[xelakann]

Hugs! I hope you find something that works you and your kids!

[prothyraia]

If you're finding UP to be too much, I'd try reading The Secret of Parenting. It's still non-punitive but comes from a much more parent-in-control perspective.

[Kailey's mom]

Help me with the terms lol.. what's UP? I want to try and help, I just don't know what it means hugs!

[unschoolinmom]

Originally Posted by prothyraia

If you're finding UP to be too much, I'd try reading The Secret of Parenting. It's still non-punitive but comes from a much more parent-in-control perspective.

Originally Posted by Kailey's mom

Help me with the terms lol.. what's UP? I want to try and help, I just don't know what it means hugs!

UP= Unconditional Parenting. and PD is positive discipline. I'm not sure if the fact that the kids are getting to me is because I'm sick and tired or not, but I'm beginning to really not like them so much or this advantage taking that they've been doing to me.

I know they're young, but today...was just too much. I live in a top floor apartment and they set up to banging things on the floor constantly. I pulled them aside several times, asked what they needed, explained why it was not nice to do that and they still did it.

Finally my downstairs neighbors complained and the landlord came to get on me about the noise.

I will try to find that book too and see how it works.

[The4OfUs]

I will seriously second the Secret Of Parenting. And honestly, I don't thinik even UP would advocate doign nothing if your kids kept banging on the floor in a top floor apartment. If talking isn't doing anything, then firm but gentle actions are an alternative....such as, taking the objects, telling them they need to find something else to do or giving them something else to do...even having them sit on their butts in the room with you doing nothing if they're unable to control themselves. My kids are your ages and sometimes, if they're getting crazy and will not listen to my initial attempts at discussing it with them, they have to come in the room with me and just sit.

No punishment doesn't mean no boundaries, and no consequences to your actions. It means that the boundaries and consequences are age appropriate and aren't arbitrary, and aren't designed to show them "who's boss". Even in consensual living families, *mutual* solutions are found, which woudl include *not* bothering the people living downstairs. I'm not typign this to upset you, but to let you know that just because you don't do consensual or UP parenting doesn't mean that you can't still do a version of positive discipline. I want to encourage you!

GD doesn't mean your kids do whatever they want and you don't take any action. I'm sorry you're having a tough time right now - please explore the book recommended, it's a great, nonpunitive parent-in-charge positive discipline model!

[Kailey's mom]

Sick and tired plus kids that aren't listening..yeah..not fun. I've had the thought before that my way of parenting was not working at all and was jeolous of the parents who had it "under control". Did you explain that the landlord came up because of the banging? I guess I don't have any good advice, but just know that you are not alone. My hope is that after Christmas; things will calm down. LOL I think I'll look into that book

[unschoolinmom]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

I will seriously second the Secret Of Parenting. And honestly, I don't thinik even UP would advocate doign nothing if your kids kept banging on the floor in a top floor apartment. If talking isn't doing anything, then firm but gentle actions are an alternative....such as, taking the objects, telling them they need to find something else to do or giving them something else to do...even having them sit on their butts in the room with you doing nothing if they're unable to control themselves. My kids are your ages and sometimes, if they're getting crazy and will not listen to my initial attempts at discussing it with them, they have to come in the room with me and just sit.

No punishment doesn't mean no boundaries, and no consequences to your actions. It means that the boundaries and consequences are age appropriate and aren't arbitrary, and aren't designed to show them "who's boss". Even in consensual living families, *mutual* solutions are found, which woudl include *not* bothering the people living downstairs. I'm not typign this to upset you, but to let you know that just because you don't do consensual or UP parenting doesn't mean that you can't still do a version of positive discipline. I want to encourage you!

GD doesn't mean your kids do whatever they want and you don't take any action. I'm sorry you're having a tough time right now - please explore the book recommended, it's a great, nonpunitive parent-in-charge positive discipline model!

I don't see it as upsetting at all. I'm just tired. I've given my all in this and hate giving up on anything, but I'm actually beginning to think they hate me. I know they don't, but as I've said, I'm tired. I'm going to go to sleep soon after I finally eat (i haven't eaten because I'm so stressed out from this yet today) and the try again tomorrow.

[sgmom]

How old are your kids? If they're used to acting to avoid a punishment, a sudden change from you (from being a stern "do it or else" mom, to "how can I help you") could absolutely cause problems, as they aren't likely to take you seriously.

My advice would be to not stop doing whatever you were doing before deciding to try UP, but to read the book anyway (if you're still interested in learning more about UP, that is) and slowly work your way into the type of parent you want to be.

UP (in my experience) is ALL about listening to your kids, and acting towards their needs (rather than punishing the behavior). It can certainly take some time to learn how to do this, but if you're truly interested in UP, don't sell yourself short. There's a big learning curve there, if it doesn't immediately come naturally to you. It will come.

And speaking of books, one of the best books that helped me is called "The Science of Parenting". It doesn't talk about one specific parenting technique, but it compares different techniques and explains (often with pictures of MRI's, or diagrams) how these affect a child's brain development. When certain actions are appropriate (like the use of time out, daycare, sleep training vs co-sleeping), things like that. It might give you a better insight on how you want to handle certain situations, rather than what type of parenting style you want to follow.

With that in mind though, definitely read UP when you're in a better frame of mind. It sounds like the "sick and tired" is getting the better of you. Maybe even take some time to sit down with your kids (think age appropriate and get to their levels!) and flat out talk to them about how they want to be treated (and why).

I'm really sorry to hear that you're feeling so low right now. But hang in there!! Take some deep breaths, and take it all one day at a time.

[sgmom]

PS. I've never read "The Secret of Parenting" so I can't comment. But I wanted to mention that the book I mentioned above was not a typo. LOL!

The Science of Parenting is by Margot Sunderland. I have no idea who wrote the other (but I've heard good things!).

[unschoolinmom]

Thanks. I ended up talking to Dh about it and I think what's really getting me confused is my mother's and MIL's advice, his advice, and then my own wants. He agrees positive works better than negative, but also believes that children need to also learn the hard knocks in life if they are to survive the harsh adult world. Which means, sometimes they need to learn about negativity WITH positivity to understand that life is not always a positive experience.

My mother and MIL believe that if we (their children and themselves) are still good, functioning citizens then obviously a bit of hard love doesn't hurt and are now upset with me because they feel as though I am calling their form of raising wrong. My mother especially thinks that I'm saying that the way she raised me (corporal punishment) made me a bad person and so I don't want that for my kids. I've tried to explain to her that I don't think that at all, but now she's not speaking to me. *sighs*

I on the other hand have always tried very very hard to keep positive with my children. I guess I'm trying to be a perfect mom because I only want them to have the best. So it bummed me out that I was having such a hard time while sick.

[Cheshire]

Another great book - Kids are Worth It. It will help you identify the way you were raised and how you can adjust whatever style you have to raise great kids (without punishment).

I agree with kids learning how to survive life's hard knocks but instead of using punishment I try to use discipline through natural consequences. I don't have to make them feel bad to get them to "behave." The author explains it really well and your DH might get something out of it.

[mamazee]

UP isn't about not stopping something that needs to stop. It just means not using punishment, threats of punishment, or rewards or bribes to get it to stop. So you could take away whatever they're using to make the noise, distract them by getting out something else for them to do, giving them something soft to hit on the ground, or something like that. But you don't have to just talk about it and trust that they'll stop. If it needs to stop, just stop it by taking away the stuff. You don't have to get angry about it or anything. Just say, "I think that noise will bother our neighbors. Here, I'll take thsoe away, and you can do (whatever) instead."

If you live somewhere with bad weather, you're having trouble because kids have a hard time being cooped up indoors, and you can't get them out to a park so they can let off steam. Is there anywhere you can take them where they have have that kind of physical play?

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by unschoolinmom

Thanks. I ended up talking to Dh about it and I think what's really getting me confused is my mother's and MIL's advice, his advice, and then my own wants. He agrees positive works better than negative, but also believes that children need to also learn the hard knocks in life if they are to survive the harsh adult world. Which means, sometimes they need to learn about negativity WITH positivity to understand that life is not always a positive experience.

My mother and MIL believe that if we (their children and themselves) are still good, functioning citizens then obviously a bit of hard love doesn't hurt and are now upset with me because they feel as though I am calling their form of raising wrong. My mother especially thinks that I'm saying that the way she raised me (corporal punishment) made me a bad person and so I don't want that for my kids. I've tried to explain to her that I don't think that at all, but now she's not speaking to me. *sighs*

I on the other hand have always tried very very hard to keep positive with my children. I guess I'm trying to be a perfect mom because I only want them to have the best. So it bummed me out that I was having such a hard time while sick.

We all have days like those Try focusing on everyone getting respected- including you- it will make discipline easier when you have a clear goal in mind for the process.

[Anastasiya]

"Unconditional Parenting" is a very offensive term to me. (I've never heard it before this thread).

How would you (the general YOU here) like to hear that you're not parenting unconditionally just because you choose to discipline (which means teach) in a different way?

[MichelleAnnette]

Something that works really, really well with my son, 2.5 years, is to give him a choice when I need to stop an undesirable behavior.

Example: He is sitting on my lap at dinner and is putting his hands in my food. I say, "Gabe, do you want to sit here and stop putting your hands in my food OR get down and play by yourself? I don't want your hands in my food." He almost always stops the behavior I want stopped, but if I say, "Stop putting your hands in my food," he often does it again and again. I also make sure to say, "I want you to..." or "I don't want you to..." so he knows that I am asking him to respect my wishes and not just telling him to do or not do something for a reason unknown to him. The choice is about empowering him to be responsible for his own behavior while also letting him know that certain behaviors are unacceptable.

If we lived in an apt and he was making too much noise, bothering others, I would say something like, "The neighbors don't want you to make this noise. It bothers them. Do you want to keep [insert whatever item is making the noise] and stop banging, OR would you like me to take [insert item] and you can play with something else?" I think that this shows that sometimes you do or don't do things out of respect for other people's wishes/peace/property. In turn, I respect his wants.

I love the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. I also like the UP book.

[lolar2]

1. Whenever my mother starts to get defensive on how she raised me (not corporal punishment or anything, but things like sleeping on the tummy not back when I was a baby), I usually tell her something like, "But none of this research had been done yet! You didn't know about it because NO ONE knew." (Even if it isn't strictly true.)

2. Some of the more-traditional parents on MDC seem to like Love and Logic books. It is definitely more mainstream than a lot of what is usually recommended here, but they don't recommend spanking or anything.

[unschoolinmom]

Originally Posted by mamazee

UP isn't about not stopping something that needs to stop. It just means not using punishment, threats of punishment, or rewards or bribes to get it to stop. So you could take away whatever they're using to make the noise, distract them by getting out something else for them to do, giving them something soft to hit on the ground, or something like that. But you don't have to just talk about it and trust that they'll stop. If it needs to stop, just stop it by taking away the stuff. You don't have to get angry about it or anything. Just say, "I think that noise will bother our neighbors. Here, I'll take thsoe away, and you can do (whatever) instead."

If you live somewhere with bad weather, you're having trouble because kids have a hard time being cooped up indoors, and you can't get them out to a park so they can let off steam. Is there anywhere you can take them where they have have that kind of physical play?

My unschooling group was going to do a park day at the Library, but I've unfortunately been sick since the snow storm, so going out was a no go. I didn't want to get anyone else sick.

Usually though, during these cold months, we meet at the library or someone's house. Hopefully next week I'll be back on my feet and we can get out again. Even I'm getting a bit of cabin fever.

[unschoolinmom]

Originally Posted by MichelleAnnette

Something that works really, really well with my son, 2.5 years, is to give him a choice when I need to stop an undesirable behavior.

Example: He is sitting on my lap at dinner and is putting his hands in my food. I say, "Gabe, do you want to sit here and stop putting your hands in my food OR get down and play by yourself? I don't want your hands in my food." He almost always stops the behavior I want stopped, but if I say, "Stop putting your hands in my food," he often does it again and again. I also make sure to say, "I want you to..." or "I don't want you to..." so he knows that I am asking him to respect my wishes and not just telling him to do or not do something for a reason unknown to him. The choice is about empowering him to be responsible for his own behavior while also letting him know that certain behaviors are unacceptable.

If we lived in an apt and he was making too much noise, bothering others, I would say something like, "The neighbors don't want you to make this noise. It bothers them. Do you want to keep [insert whatever item is making the noise] and stop banging, OR would you like me to take [insert item] and you can play with something else?" I think that this shows that sometimes you do or don't do things out of respect for other people's wishes/peace/property. In turn, I respect his wants.

I love the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. I also like the UP book.

The choice thing works well with my daughter. My son on the other hand...this is how a usual day goes with him.

Me discussing him trying to stand on the glass tv stand and almost having the 42 inch flat screen fall on him....

Me: Lu, that is dangerous. You could get hurt and that would make mommy said. Do you want to use the remote to turn the channel or would you rather go play with your toys in your room?

Lucien: Neither.

Me: Then what would you like to do?

Lucien: Nothing.

Me: Well you can come sit down with me and have private time.

Lucien: *runs off and 10 minutes later is back standing on it and tipping the large tv.

So then I end up taking him away from the situation, sits him down on the floor near me and he screams until he loses his voice.

[Dar]

I think it's really hard to completely change the way you discipline overnight - hard on you and also on your kids. I would try to work more gradually... read the books, think about the ideas, implement a few of them... then come back and ask more questions.

So, in a situation when you previously might have punished your kids, try something goofy... make a big pillow talk and say, "No! Don't hit the floor! Hit me! Pleeeeasssse hit me! My turn!"

Or you could introduce some problem solving with them, if they seem open to it... on a white board or something write (and say) Problem: Too much noise on the floor hurts the neighbors' ears. Then ask for solutions and write them down... any ideas. You might have to get them started first, and it's okay to make them silly solutions... fill the bathtub with pillows and play there... go to the park... move to a new house.... and then talk about them and figure out together which ones to try.

You can always punish... that option won't go away. I think the challenge is to add more tools to your toolkit so that you'll start punishing less, and eventually maybe not at all. Really, your kids are so young... this gets easier as they get older. It's just really helpful to have things more discipline tools than 1. Ask them nicely to stop or 2. Punish.

And FWIW, my lovely almost 17 year old daughter, parented without punishment, has been navigating the real world for years now very effectively... so yes, this does work.