Non-believers/members asking for blessings/sacraments

[Tradd]

I'll post more later, but for now I'll put this out there:

If you are a non-Christian, have you ever called a congregation to ask for a blessing (say, a house blessing) or a sacrament (baptism or wedding) because you felt it was "the thing to do." By this I mean, you're getting married and even though you're not a Christian (although maybe your family is or you were raised as one), you want to get married in a church because "that's how it's done" or all the kids in your family get baptized even if few practice.

Or related: if you're a believer, but not attached to any particular congregation, do you contact a priest/minister for a sacrament, even when there are clear requirements on congregation's website that you have no intention of meeting, but still demand the priest/minister do it?

I don't mean to be combative, but I'm trying to understand the mindset. I recently had a very frustrating exchange. I'm president and webmaster of a local organization for my faith (I'm an Orthodox Christian), and received an email through our website from someone not of our tradition and most likely not even a Christian (from her word choices in emails) demanding a house blessing (I was told there were restless spirits and the like in their house), who couldn't seem to understand that such blessings are not done unquestioningly, without any discussion with a priest. She demanded I find a priest who would do it and kept asking when it would happen. As I didn't know where she lived, I pointed out the parish locator tool on our website (you enter your zip code and it gives you the nearby parishes), but she wouldn't use it. She wanted *me* to make the arrangements. That was the last email. I spoke with my own priest, who would not do a house blessing under such circumstances. I don't know of anyone locally who *would* do it. I've had discussions with local priests about non-members demanding sacraments (these people ascribe magical properties to baptism, for example), but under no circumstances will they do them. I know a few priests who would do a house blessing for a non-Orthodox, but they would have to ascertain the person's motives are good, respectful, they're a Christian. These priests are out-of-state, however.

It seems that some folks have a mindset from the media (movies, books, and such) that if you have paranormal activity, you need to have a priest in to fling some holy water about. Most seem to think about a Catholic priest for this one, though. Not sure how she hit upon the Orthodox. But if you're not Christian and don't hold to Christian beliefs, what good will it do you? Wouldn't smudging with sage (which I've read about here on MDC) or something similar be more appropriate in such a situation?

[lilyka]

actually smudging with sage wouldn't be any different. that is a religous thing and if you do it just because it is the hip thing to do its no different than having your house blessed. actually it would be like you blessing your own house and skipping the priest I guess. why don't you suggest that to her. direct her to the prayers for a house blessing and tell her to have at it?


i can't say that it has ever occured to me to head to another faith to ask for sacrements or blessings. I wouldn't even ask for a baptism or marriage outside of my church....

[annettemarie]

She sounds pushy and obnoxious and I'm sorry.

DH is a pastor and he gets phone calls all the time from people who want to have weddings in our church because it's pretty or have their babies baptized because it's the thing to do. It's really not uncommon. But her attitude towards you making arrangements for her was really weird.

[SunshineJ]

Well, no, that just seems like a strange thing to do. But on the other hand, I was always under the impression that people of the Christian faith don't feel this world is any place for "bad spirits" and I guess I'd think that a priest would feel obliged to help eradicate them no matter what the motivation of the person asking. I was raised DOC Christian, so we never discussed things like bad spirits, these are just my impressions.

[Bluegoat]

My guess is that she thinks there is some kind of generalized power in the priest's action, for some reason. So in that way, she likely does "believe" something. But, I also wonder from your description if there could have been some other issue - maybe mental illness. Priests do occasionally get such people reaching out to them for one reason or another, even if they are not part of that particular faith.

As far as people looking for other sacraments without being believers. I have been noticing in non-Christians in my own age group, more and more simply forgo these things. But those that get them are very often doing so under pressure from family - I know my two little cousins were probably really baptized because it made the grandparents happy (I don't think they were pushy, but it was made known they thought it was important.) I have a few people I know who married in the Catholic Church at the strong demand of parents.

I actually have some sympathy for them - it's really very unfair of the family to ask this, and I think the priest should probably be the one to talk to the parents in such cases and lay down the law.

[purplepaperclip]

I don't know about the lady who you've had contact with, but for a lot of people it is NOT an all or nothing thing. Many folks are more than happy to take what they like/want/need from religion and leave the rest and many institutions are happy to oblige, especially for a fee.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by suebee79

I don't know about the lady who you've had contact with, but for a lot of people it is NOT an all or nothing thing. Many folks are more than happy to take what they like/want/need from religion and leave the rest and many institutions are happy to oblige, especially for a fee.

That is true, and those people and institutions usually find each other eventually. However, it sometimes happens in my church that people ask for sacraments or other blessings offered exclusively to church members, and are very offended when they are refused. It is seen as rude and discriminatory, like refusing to serve somebody in a restaurant because of their religion.

I think Tradd is right about some people basing their ideas on movies. They think "ritualistic" Christian churches have some kind of random power they can throw around when needed, like Jedi with the Force. They need to understand they are dealing with a real church, not a celluloid one. Any "power" the church has is God's, and that is not something you can or should casually hire by the day.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by suebee79

I don't know about the lady who you've had contact with, but for a lot of people it is NOT an all or nothing thing. Many folks are more than happy to take what they like/want/need from religion and leave the rest and many institutions are happy to oblige, especially for a fee.

I'd have to agree with this one, myself.

[Smokering]

My dad's a Reformed Baptist pastor; we're very low church, non-liturgical and generally unshowy, so don't do any of the more "theatrical" elements of Christianity that appeal to a lot of people for aesthetic reasons. We don't have vestments, choirs, stained-glass windows or a beautiful chapel. So Dad probably gets fewer requests by people wanting a Christian high-church "flavour" to a celebration than someone from, say, high Anglicanism.

Nevertheless, he did get one couple who wanted him to marry them (not believers, but the children of church members) and specifically asked if he'd "wear his robes". Dad kind of spluttered and kindly told them he didn't wear vestments (which they REALLY should have known, our denomination being what it is!). The bride persisted and wanted him to get some for the occasion! He found it funny, but it's kind of offensive really - what exactly did she want him to symbolise by wearing clothes he never wears for religious purposes? Basically she was happy to put her desire for a particular "look" over my father's religious principles (he doesn't wear vestments out of principle, not because he'd never thought of it until the bride brought it up!). Plus, my father would look extremely odd in vestments...

That kind of thing is why Dad prefers just to do Christian weddings. Secular celebrants often seem to like dressing up to play a part (whether it be in a kilt for a Scottish wedding or faux vestments for a non-specific Christianish spiritual "vibe"), but Dad prefers to just be himself - a non-robe-wearing, low-church Christian pastor - and do the ceremony without any fanfare.

[anj_rn]

Our church has very specific requirements prior to performing baptisms, joining the church, dedications, weddings, etc. These are things like pre-marital counseling, religious classes, etc). They are the same for members and non-members, and are in writing, so whomever answers the phone or emails gives the same answers. That being said, I do not believe any member of our pastoral staff would agree to the above for a non-christian.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by anj_rn

Our church has very specific requirements prior to performing baptisms, joining the church, dedications, weddings, etc. These are things like pre-marital counseling, religious classes, etc). They are the same for members and non-members, and are in writing, so whomever answers the phone or emails gives the same answers. That being said, I do not believe any member of our pastoral staff would agree to the above for a non-christian.

My husband always says "That's why we have a policy." That way, it's not his arbitrary whim, but the guidelines speaking.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

I think Tradd is right about some people basing their ideas on movies. They think "ritualistic" Christian churches have some kind of random power they can throw around when needed, like Jedi with the Force. .

Ya know, my priest does kinda look like a Jedi, what with the robe and beard and pony tail...but he is old school. instead of a light saber he just has a really big candle......

use the force Fr. Sava....use the force.

[annettemarie]

OMGosh, that made my night.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Nevertheless, he did get one couple who wanted him to marry them (not believers, but the children of church members) and specifically asked if he'd "wear his robes". Dad kind of spluttered and kindly told them he didn't wear vestments (which they REALLY should have known, our denomination being what it is!). The bride persisted and wanted him to get some for the occasion! He found it funny, but it's kind of offensive really - what exactly did she want him to symbolise by wearing clothes he never wears for religious purposes? Basically she was happy to put her desire for a particular "look" over my father's religious principles (he doesn't wear vestments out of principle, not because he'd never thought of it until the bride brought it up!). Plus, my father would look extremely odd in vestments...

That kind of thing is why Dad prefers just to do Christian weddings. Secular celebrants often seem to like dressing up to play a part (whether it be in a kilt for a Scottish wedding or faux vestments for a non-specific Christianish spiritual "vibe"), but Dad prefers to just be himself - a non-robe-wearing, low-church Christian pastor - and do the ceremony without any fanfare.

If you think about it though weddings do have all kinds of weird dress up rules. Why is that the bride and groom and often the wedding party wear formal attire when everyone else is in casual clothes? and now it is becoming oddly customary for the bride to wear silly shoes or something odd such as that. Not so long agp the only brides wearing formal attire were the ones who were throwing black tie events, or at least one where people really dressed nicely. girls who were throwing sunday best events wore dresses that qualified as Sunday best. fancy but not over the top designer formal wear. but every wedding I have ever been to has had the bride in groom in extreme formal attire along with the wedding party and everyone else in something along the lines of business casual down to jeans and tshirts. Suddly the wedding parties attire has become a costume they are expected to wear for the event. In light of that it doesn't really seem odd that they would ask the pastor to put on his costume to play his part in this weird social drama.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

Ya know, my priest does kinda look like a Jedi, what with the robe and beard and pony tail...but he is old school. instead of a light saber he just has a really big candle......

use the force Fr. Sava....use the force.

There's a priest-monk who teaches at a university several hours away (I've heard him speak), who spends summers on Mt. Athos. My choir directors call him "Obi Wan Kenobi." He even wears sandals with socks under his cassock!

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by lilyka

If you think about it though weddings do have all kinds of weird dress up rules. Why is that the bride and groom and often the wedding party wear formal attire when everyone else is in casual clothes? and now it is becoming oddly customary for the bride to wear silly shoes or something odd such as that. Not so long agp the only brides wearing formal attire were the ones who were throwing black tie events, or at least one where people really dressed nicely. girls who were throwing sunday best events wore dresses that qualified as Sunday best. fancy but not over the top designer formal wear. but every wedding I have ever been to has had the bride in groom in extreme formal attire along with the wedding party and everyone else in something along the lines of business casual down to jeans and tshirts. Suddly the wedding parties attire has become a costume they are expected to wear for the event. In light of that it doesn't really seem odd that they would ask the pastor to put on his costume to play his part in this weird social drama.

Strictly speaking, this is an etiquette issue. I think it has been caused by wedding magazines, and dressmakers who want to sell expensive formal gowns.

The wedding party and the guests are actually supposed to be at the same level of formality. If it is a black-tie evening thing, the men, including guests, should be in tuxes. If the wedding party is wearing a suit, that is also about right for the guests. The brides dress, while the most grand, should be similar in formality to what the guests wear.

They have, I think, become different because people want a very fancy wedding that is really outside what their friends and family can manage. Think of all the men in morning dress in 4 Weddings and a Funeral? How many people own such a thing, or would be willing to rent it for a friend's wedding?

It's a bit like serving expensive champagne to the head table and plonk to the guests.

[lilyka]

Well exactly. What was once appropriate dress has become costume. And in many weddings it is a costume (such as themed weddings) which it only makes sense that since everything else is so orchestrated for the dramatic why wouldn't guy at the front of the church be part of the setting the bride is looking for as well. As the pp mentioned these people were not looking for a man of God to participate in a sacrament or holy rite. They were looking for an actor to fulfil his part in this play. and they were dressed up why shouldn't he be? When you take the wedding gown and tuxes out of their proper formality they become costumes. props in a play. mah, anyway....the whole wedding drama is so weird to me.....

[Moonprysm]

Not so much about our specific situation, but my husband is a pagan and has had blessings from priesthood holders of my church (LDS). He is a universalist and basically believes that if someone believes the acting with the power of God and have followed the rules that *their faith* says they have to follow, then they ARE acting with that power. Kinda hard to explain I guess. Priesthood blessings are forms of energy work in his opinion, it's just a different name for it. (And I agree - I have training in energy work myself and the energy that comes from a good priesthood holder during a blessing is amazing). So yeah, you don't have to be a Christian to believe that certain things that ARE Christian work.

[Smokering]

In light of that it doesn't really seem odd that they would ask the pastor to put on his costume to play his part in this weird social drama.

Well yes, except that in this case it wasn't the pastor's costume, and the pastor had a theological objection to wearing that costume. So it was an etiquette glitch - it demonstrated a lack of understanding about our denomination, and an expectation that the pastor would happily adopt the practices of a VERY different denomination in order to look cool. Which is a bit off, really. Just as hiring a Catholic priest to do the wedding but require he not wear vestments (or worse, wear the garb of an orthodox Jewish rabbi or a Buddhist monk or something) in order to "fit the theme", would be off.

Plus, the larger concept of weddings as showy affairs is a bit antithetical to my dad's way of thinking anyway. I think he was bullied into getting a new shirt for my wedding, but that was about the extent of it.

[PoppyMama]

There are A LOT of paranormal shows being made right now so maybe she got scared.