Please help me respond to this argument a/st NIP

[Code Name Mama]

My family and I got into a heated debate about whether "women should be allowed to NIP without a cover." The points they kept bringing up came back to one theme: breasts have been sexualized, and seeing a mother nurse makes people (esp. men) uncomfortable.

I blog, and I want to post an organized, coherent response so that my family (and anyone else) can read and digest the info at their own pace. Can anyone point me to articles/resources that will help me counter their argument?

Basically what I said at the time was: 1) my child's needs come before anyone else's discomfort at seeing a nursing mother; 2) the fact that you are uncomfortable stems from cultural perceptions, and I will count it as a success if I can help normalize bf'ing for just one person; 3) women walk around in clothing that reveals much more skin than a bf'ing mom reveals and that is considered to be ok . . .

There was more, I just can't recall it all now. I know I can write something thoughtful, but I'd love to have some studies/statistics to cite in support.

Can anyone help? TIA!

[annettemarie]

Several things come to mind. Well, more than several, but a few are against the UA.

I don't have stats, but I do have several thoughts.

1. If someone is uncomfortable seeing a woman breastfeed, then by all means, they should feel not to look. Perhaps they should even throw a blanket over their own heads. But an individual's personal kinks/sexual proclivitites should not dictate how women feed their children. It's chauvenistic and patriarchal. If a few men get hot seeing ankles, should we all be forced to cover them up too?

2. If breastfeeding is sexual, then what is bottlefeeding? Using a plastic substitute for the same sexual activity. So shouldn't that be covered up too? It's a ridiculous argument, I know, but it's based on a rdiculous premise.

3. Whose rights are most important here? The person who walks by and insists upon looking, gives in to being offended, and then voices that offense? No. The nursing mother? Again, I would actually say no. One of my favorite phrases is "don't think about it as a woman's right to breastfeed. Think of it as a baby's right to eat." Who wants to eat with a blanket over their head? Who wants to be told that everytime they want to eat, they have to delay gratification until the person in charge of the food can whisk them off to an undisclosed location where no one will be offended by the method of delivery?

Which brings me to
4. The only thing breastfeeding can be compared to is other methods of feeding a baby. It's not public sex or masturbation or passing gas or voiding in public. It's not a peep show or a political statement or a way to flip the proverbial bird to anyone who happens to see it. All it is is a way to feed a baby. If a baby bottlefeeding in that particular circumstance isn't an issue--and there are very few places where it would be--then breastfeeding shouldn't be an issue either. Because at the end of the day, that's really all it's about-- feeding a baby.

Anyway, just a few of my thought.

[dse657]

PP wrote such a great response! I just have one thought to add. Yesterday, I was in the mall for post-holiday sales, and I saw several bottles-on-the-go. One even had chocolate milk (for a toddler). I think it would've been much nicer and in the holiday spirit to see parents and babes cuddling to NIP!

[PatioGardener]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

Which brings me to
4. The only thing breastfeeding can be compared to is other methods of feeding a baby. It's not public sex or masturbation or passing gas or voiding in public. It's not a peep show or a political statement or a way to flip the proverbial bird to anyone who happens to see it. All it is is a way to feed a baby. If a baby bottlefeeding in that particular circumstance isn't an issue--and there are very few places where it would be--then breastfeeding shouldn't be an issue either. Because at the end of the day, that's really all it's about-- feeding a baby.

Thanks for this, Annettemarie! Nicely put!

[HappyMommy2]

I NIP'ed at a mall, and the high school boys came snickering by me. It was a proud moment though, because I want them to know that feeding a baby is normal. The more people see it, the more normalized it will become.

Teenagers can't help themselves, so a giggle and perhaps a conversation about me is worth the price!! I just looked them in the eye and smiled a huge smile!!

[Code Name Mama]

Thank you, annettemarie - all excellent thoughts. I wrote down many of my thoughts yesterday as we drove home, several of ours were right in line with each other.
Another thing I thought of is that my 17 yr old nephew was there and said "well this is OUR culture, and WE don't want to see it."
OUR culture also used to enslave people. OUR culture used to prevent certain groups of people from exercising constitutional rights that white men enjoyed. etc. Just b/c our culture does something doesn't make it right, and I would love to hammer that thought home for the teenager who was telling me what I should and should not do.

It's going to be so hard to write something without getting irate.

[PatioGardener]

Here in Ontario, Canada, your response could be "It's the law". Anywhere, Anytime.

I know that probably doesn't help you wherever you are, but at least there are places in the world where a baby's right to feed is seen as a human right. Something to move forward towards.

[Funny Face]

Normalizing breasts is the cure, not hiding them.

Hiding what is natural and innocent gives power to the perverse and detrimental.

[Code Name Mama]

Originally Posted by Funny Face

Normalizing breasts is the cure, not hiding them.

Hiding what is natural and innocent gives power to the perverse and detrimental.

That's exactly what I tried telling them. I just hope I made some small change in my 14 yr old niece's thoughts on the subject.

[sweetpeppers]

I'm sorry you had to deal with this with your own family. That must be really frustrating.

[tanyam926]

Most people do not feel uncomfortable when they see breasts. They are uncomfortable when they see NIP bc the breasts are being used in a non sexual way. That is the only explanation I can come up w/as to why our society LOVES breasts everywhere except in a baby's mouth.

So the issue is not breasts at all, it's BF. If the issue is BF then the ONLY way to fix the problem is to normalize BF. The only way to normalize BF is to let people SEE BF, therefore NIP is necessary for the health and well being of future generations.

See? It's simple.

[crunchy_mommy]

Great thoughts already, I will add:

Most people don't sit and stare at a breastfeeding mother. The more uncomfortable someone is with it, the more likely they are to look away or outright walk away (as I discovered at my in-laws over the holidays LOL!) So really the only people "seeing" the breastfeeding mother are the people who are comfortable with it. Those who feel "offended" have already walked away.

As far as nursing specifically with a cover, it's often completely impractical. It worked great for me & DS when we were just getting the hang of things and he was too young to be able to pull it off... now, you'd see way more if I were to use a cover than if I just forgo it altogether... he'd be yanking it off, trying to sit up, playing peekaboo, etc. So what's my alternative? Starve my baby?!?!

[SpiderMum]

I would point out that some people find a women wearing short offensive, so should we not be allowed to wear shorts because it might offend someone? Some people have a foot fetish...so should flip-flops be banned because some stranger MIGHT be turned on by them?

If our goal is to never offend or turn someone on....well, we're going to really have rethink our lifestyles. Women will all have to wear long shapeless dresses that go to the floor, head coverings, and closed shoes. While you're at it, let's cover their faces and eyes too!

[boobs4milk]

i'm of the 'when you have to cover YOUR head to eat, i'll cover my baby's' camp. i DO cover sometimes, especially when latching her at a crowded basketball game, but it is FOR OUR COMFORT! i only do what is comfortable for us. period.

did you ask your family how much boob they actually saw on the NIP mother? generally, the HONEST answer is little to none and in that case the viewers are the ones with the issues because it's all in their dirty minds!

[rere]

Originally Posted by PatioGardener

Here in Ontario, Canada, your response could be "It's the law". Anywhere, Anytime.

I know that probably doesn't help you wherever you are, but at least there are places in the world where a baby's right to feed is seen as a human right. Something to move forward towards.

It's the law in Illinois too!Although it makes me kinda sad that we need that law.

[Bluegoat]

I think much of our issue is that as a society, we have separated sexuality and fertility. And it has been complicated because for several generations breastfeeding was not seen much. So now, breasts are perceived only as sexual tools, and that is seen as a private thing. A better way would be to recognize that breastfeeding, and childbirth, are good and healthy expressions of sexuality that do not need to be hidden in the same way that sexual intercourse is.

But I think to make this argument to your family I would say this. At one time, women, or racial minorities in certain places or jobs were not seen. As a society, we have decided this is wrong. But for some time, and even today, seeing people in these positions can make people very uncomfortable.

Most of us though understand at an intellectual level that this is not right, and so we deal with it. We know that over time, our own discomfort will likely lessen, and also that as a society it will become normalized.

The same is true for breastfeeding. THe discomfort is based on a model of sexuality and understanding of breastfeeding that is simply incorrect, and unhealthy for babies, women, and everyone else. So we act like adults and contain our personal discomfort, our emotions, for the good of all.

[Lilyoftheincas13]

Originally Posted by SpiderMum

I would point out that some people find a women wearing short offensive, so should we not be allowed to wear shorts because it might offend someone? Some people have a foot fetish...so should flip-flops be banned because some stranger MIGHT be turned on by them?

If our goal is to never offend or turn someone on....well, we're going to really have rethink our lifestyles. Women will all have to wear long shapeless dresses that go to the floor, head coverings, and closed shoes. While you're at it, let's cover their faces and eyes too!

I find that of all family members, teenagers are the most likely to be positively influenced by the example older family sets. Especially older family they don't happen to live with!

Breastfeeding is natural and normal, period. It's how nature has designed us to nourish our offspring, whether we be human or beast, and it is up to each woman to decide where, when and how she needs to feed her child--whether that be in private, in public, or a combination of both.

When I read the original post and the quoted post above, my thoughts jumped to an article I read a few weeks ago about the harassment women in the Arab world have to deal with. In short, the article says that women are forced to cover up for their own safety, but men still harass them, call out to them in a sexual way, touch them without permission in an aggressive manner, try to force them to go to a "private place" with them, and in cases where they are covered up literally from head to toe (niqab), men still find a way to pinch their bottoms anyway. My over-riding thoughts at the time I read this article was to wonder how, in any logical manner, it was okay to treat a woman as "less than" simply because she was born a woman? If the body we are given at birth can simply be looked upon by another human being and cause them to feel something sexual, then how does it follow that we can do and say anything we want to that person to the point of harassment no matter what they are wearing? Especially when the only thing the clothes can potentially signal, as in the case of a niqab, is the gender of the person sporting the outfit?

I know these thoughts may seem to be for a different and much larger topic, and I really don't intend to start a debate over modest dressing or offend anyone who truly believes in modest dressing, because that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about extremes in societal belief systems, and the way we here in America are socialized to believe that a woman who is breastfeeding her child in public is performing some sort of private, sexual act that should be hidden away in the back room (Cover it up lest we make someone else uncomfortable!) is very similar to the idea that a woman should make sure her body is hidden from head to toe just in case some random person on the street becomes sexually aroused by the mere sight of her arm and decides to attack her in some manner (Cover it up lest we make someone else uncomfortable!). I can't help but wonder when we will begin to address the real issue, which is, (IMO): why are we unable to control ourselves at the mere sight of another person's body part, and why is society making us believe it is okay to act out on that feeling of discomfort? For that matter, why are we associating things with sexuality that should be associated with other biological functions...such as feeding? Whether or not that sight is intended to cause arousal, it would be a good idea for us to begin to learn some sort of control at some point in time, or else more and more of us are going to believe that we have a legitimate reason to harass or harm others who make us..."uncomfortable" in public. Even when you can only see their eyes.

Just sayin'.

It may take years for a teen to come back to you and let you know what your words of advice and clarity mean to them, but if it means something, then they will come back. Regardless, I would make the point, because...someone has to!

Link to article:

ttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_arabs_sexual_harassment

[Pirogi]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

2. If breastfeeding is sexual, then what is bottlefeeding? Using a plastic substitute for the same sexual activity.

I always go even farther with this line of thought (in my head). It has to do with other ... instances ... where a plastic tool is used in a sexual way. Now I don't see breastfeeding as of the same sexual "caliber" as intercourse, but if a person insists on this line of thought, then they would naturally have to equate synthetic nipples with other synthetic tools that are used sexually. Who knows, thinking of it this way might enlighten some people as to how very minimally sexual the act of breastfeeding actually is.

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I think much of our issue is that as a society, we have separated sexuality and fertility. And it has been complicated because for several generations breastfeeding was not seen much. So now, breasts are perceived only as sexual tools, and that is seen as a private thing. A better way would be to recognize that breastfeeding, and childbirth, are good and healthy expressions of sexuality that do not need to be hidden in the same way that sexual intercourse is.

Originally Posted by Lilyoftheincas13

I can't help but wonder when we will begin to address the real issue, which is, (IMO): why are we unable to control ourselves at the mere sight of another person's body part, and why is society making us believe it is okay to act out on that feeling of discomfort? For that matter, why are we associating things with sexuality that should be associated with other biological functions...such as feeding? Whether or not that sight is intended to cause arousal, it would be a good idea for us to begin to learn some sort of control at some point in time, or else more and more of us are going to believe that we have a legitimate reason to harass or harm others who make us..."uncomfortable" in public. Even when you can only see their eyes.

Interesting thoughts ... I wonder how much of the discomfort is because of actual no-kidding arousal of a person, versus feelings of shame/discomfort with the general idea of sex. Strange that in our culture, witnessing a baby withdrawing milk from a woman's nipples triggers a visceral reaction with sexual undertones, but a man using his mouth on a woman's nipples does not cause a visceral reaction in most people reminiscient of infant nutrition.

[mambera]

Originally Posted by Pirogi

Strange that in our culture, witnessing a baby withdrawing milk from a woman's nipples triggers a visceral reaction with sexual undertones, but a man using his mouth on a woman's nipples does not cause a visceral reaction in most people reminiscient of infant nutrition.

It does to me. TMI but I always found it kind of weird that men like to suck on nipples. It *did* remind of me of breastfeeding (long before I had a kid), and therefore seemed infantile and was a turnoff. I grew up in the US btw.

[Smokering]

Perhaps you could ask your family members if they are willing to dress to the extremes of modesty in order to prevent certain people - strict Muslims, perhaps - from being offended. After all, some Muslims may very well be offended by the sight of modern Western dress (certainly some conservative Christians I know feel uncomfortable by seeing women in very low-cut or midriff-baring tops).

Chances are they'll claim that offended parties don't have to look; that their freedom of expression is more important than other people's sensibilities; that ankles "aren't really sexual" or something along those lines. At which point I'd say that if they're willing to make people uncomfortable for as abstract a concept as freedom of expression or whatever, a nursing mother should be allowed to make other people uncomfortable for the concrete good of feeding her baby and the abstract good of normalising breastfeeding.

Or something. Something that points out that offense is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of things. Talk about Rosa Parks.