History of Christianity vs. History of Judaism

[TzippityDoulah]

sorry in advance.... this is a long one.
(mods, if this is the wrong section - my apologies!)

I've been gone the last several days visiting and had lost of time to think (between take care of the little ones). I finally let myself question something I've been bugged with for a long time now...

• Is Jesus Messiah?
  
• and what is the Messiah?
  
• and who is He/it/they Messiah of?

I say that I know He is Messiah, but am I guilty of not really putting much thought and prayer into this one? I mean what good is it to know the ins and outs of all other parts of my belief if I can't feel secure in this one? The basis for the entire belief...

I have come to a conclusion - I know A LOT about the history of Christianity. But I don't know enough about the History of Judaism. I know it from Christianity's perspective... but not Jewish perspective. If I'm using the Hebrew Bible as more than half of my Holy Book I need to have a better understanding from the people who wrote it. I need more context, understanding, clarity... I know Judaism from an outsider's view... but not from within. I think I need to know more, and that is no easy feat b/c just like Christianity does - Judaism has a LOT of differing opinions, thoughts, perspectives, ideals... and customs which I don't understand. not to mention that whole entire other language I don't speak a word of thing. so I'm having to rely on other's translations... it's not easy.

so we have gotten a bunch of books from Jewish prospective. NOT about jews from Christian prospective. one is a torah-commentary. another is a book called "bedside torah". I am devouring it. I have to say... I'm ashamed. I thought I knew so much more than I did. Things I have been taught and have taught my children that were just off. totally off! I didn't understand the story and Christianity has developed altering reasons for stories b/c we didn't understand the true context. I know those stories back and forth.... but apparently I know them wrong. they make SO much more sense now!

I am being completely open about this because what good would it do if I wasn't? It would be a waste of time for me.

I konw God is there. I have felt Him near, heard his voice in my heart, had my secret prayers answered... I KNOW He is there. but, He is a God I feel I could spend an eternity trying to fathom. just to be clear, I DO NOT have doubts about Him... I have doubts about my interpretation of Him.

any encouragement or helpful thoughts I would love to hear. I'm feeling incredibly vulnerable and weird even posting this here for some reason. I feel like an outsider that doesn't belong anywhere... but maybe that's ok. I'm hoping in my weakness He can give me strength. I need to post it here because I really can't share this with anyone else aside from my husband. and I'm not doing this for anyone else - just for myself. because I keep feeling a deep pulling towards needing to do this that I can't seem to shake.

[genifer]

Laura, imho, I think its perfectly fine to understand judaism from a christian perspective. From a perspective that is God led and not man led. If you speak to jews on the subject you are obviously, MOST likely going to get that Jesus is NOT the Messiah, unless they ARE Messianics. And when I say 'understanding judaism from a ''christian'' perspective', I mean from the perspective of knowing Christ. Trying to understand Jesus/christianity from a jewish perspect, imho, well, when I went there, I got nowhere bc they obviously dont believe the same prophecies christians believe about the messiah. Now, my understanding is that the first chrisitans were Jewish. They were Jews who were looking for the Messiah and recognised Jesus Christ as Him. Other Jews found him offensive and called Him a blasphemer and ultimately he was crucified, or sentenced to death for blasphemy by the jewish council of His day. This is the Christian perspective, to ask a jew the same question, well Jesus doesnt even come up on the radar. I am curious about what they consider prophesies about the Messiah from their perspective, but I never wanted to ask here fearing Id be misunderstood or worse, I just didnt want to go there here ykwim.

Now, forgive me if I sound patronising and like *I* might think you dont know what you're talking about. I dont think anything like that at all. I just wanted to throw that out there. I said it as an 'in general' sort of statement.

I will say that for me its an important point to remember the fact that the first christians/believers were jewish. They understood the scriptures and knew what they were looking for in the Messiah. There were somethings about Jesus that did surprise them, tho, but upon reflection and years of further study and 'working' in Christ's service, preaching, planting churches, seeing God at work, the epistles were written (this is simplied version) as God revealed more and more about Himself, Christ, etc (how we are to live in the world as believers in Jesus Christ)... and the fact that the gospel was opened by the grace of God to the gentiles, this is how, as I understand it, Christianity, the religion, was born, or how it diverged from judaism.

have you checked out that other site I suggested?

[TzippityDoulah]

yeah, I checked it out... it was interesting. thanks

so yeah. I was afraid it might come across this way... it's so hard to convey things over the internet!!! *arg* take two...

yes yes it's ok to undersand CHRIST from a Christian prospective. of course! He is the CHRIST in CHRISTian lol

again, I'm not asking anybodies permission about Christ. Goodness, no! I'm not asking Jewish people to let me know what they think of Christ - or CHristians to tell me it's ok to question. I think that would end in a rather obvious answer from both sides. I'm looking to better understand the context of the Bible so that I can better understand who the Messiah is and what His purpose is. and what mine is, if any heh.. I'm just doing a lot of reading about the Messiah and what it means and countering it to what I do about Jesus etc.

I REALLY hope that's clear. b/c like I said... it's nothing more, nothing less. I just need to know. this is MY journey. it doesn't matter if every other person I know doesn't need to make this journey... I do. some may not feel it nessecary for their journey, and so be it.

It would just be so much easier if I kept my nose in my own religion, huh? heh... and yet, I can't seem to. nosy me.

[TzippityDoulah]

p.s. he was sentences to death my roman counsel

p.s.s. why would you be afraid to ask them? just b/c people don't agree with you doesn't mean their opinion or view is worthless? sometimes understanding other people helps us better understand ourselves. asking their view isn't the same as asking their permisson (even if they don't know it haha!)

[merpk]

If you want to know what Jews think about the Christian misinterpretations of the Torah and mistranslations that were used to get to their idea of Jesus being the messiah ... here you go.



As far as most Jews I know, Jesus was just another guy. Another Jewish guy. Like (as I said in the other thread) Einstein was a Jewish guy, Jerry Seinfeld is a Jewish guy, my-obnoxious-neighbor-Tzvi is a Jewish guy, and my DH's great grandfather was a Jewish guy.

Yes, he was a rabbi, but you know what? There are whole neighborhoods where I live where virtually every male in the neighborhood is a rabbi. All a "rabbi" means is someone well-versed in Jewish law. Which most graduates of yeshivas are qualified to be, just by dint of their intensive education. Which means, like I said, whole neighborhoods of rabbis. Take that as you will.



As far as the first Christians having been Jews, well, that doesn't mean they were right, in the Jewish view. Just because they were Jewish, does that mean they were intelligent? (Not meaning to dis anyone; just kind of in awe at the idea that just because a few Jews get some idea in their heads that means it must be the correct and true idea. You know the old joke: Two Jews, at least five opinions.) And the number of sects of Jews that have come and gone over the millennia, well, it's a lot. The other sects obviously didn't appeal to the nonJewish world and catch on like Christianity did, right?




As far as "is Jesus the Jewish messiah," the answer is No. Period. N. O. He is not. The Jews have their own definition for who will be the Mashiakh, and he doesn't fit it. Period.



As one example, the Mashiakh is supposed to get it right the first time ... no "second coming" required.

And as another, the arrival of the Mashiakh is supposed to usher in world peace. Have any of you seen world peace lately? No, neither have I.




In answer to your question, "who is he the messiah of," well, obviously he's the messiah of the Christians. He's certainly not the messiah of the Jews.

[TzippityDoulah]

Mperk -

as always I admire your passion

but really, I'm well aware of what YOUR (and the jewish stance) is on Christ. how he was nobody special. just another dude...

trust me, though I appreciate you laying it out ONCE AGAIN for me, there is no misunderstanding there. nada. believe me, I get it. again and again and.... well pretty much everytime you post

but no really... I do get it. and I understand what you are saying. I'm not asking what Jews think of Jesus b/c it's been said said and said again on this board.

But what I want is to look myself. I have enough opinions in my life. yours is small compared to the million Christian opinions I'm bucking right now in my life. but opinions - well, everyone's got em. I'm not terribly interested....
what I am looking for is some help finding this on my own. if you'd like to, that'd be awesome. (if you feel it's worth your time... if not, that's cool.) I'd like to know from a "jewish prospective" the requirements for Messiah are. I already know why Christians think he *is* the Messiah and now I'd like to know why Jews think He *isn't*...

I'm off to read the link you gave me. (though I think I may have already... anyhow I'll give it another read)

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by merpk

In answer to your question, "who is he the messiah of," well, obviously he's the messiah of the Christians. He's certainly not the messiah of the Jews.

no, I meant who is the Jewish Messiah the messiah of... is in is He messiah of Jews or of mankind.

(but I realize this one differs from person to person... even though I am quite sure you have YOUR opinion ready for me )

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by merpk

As far as "is Jesus the Jewish messiah," the answer is No. Period. N. O. He is not. The Jews have their own definition for who will be the Mashiakh, and he doesn't fit it. Period.

sorry, I'm terrible as this quote this so this is broken up all over the place!

about this.... I'm trying to understand an answer for this. perhaps you could better explain. I'm a little confused of the "Messiah ben David" and "Messiah ben Joseph" thing? is this and everyone beliefs? or does it vary? or ...

thanks, Mperk.

[genifer]

Laura, perhaps this is going round in circles so that, for me atleast, *I* can better understand what you are asking, so please be patient with me

Merpk...

If Im beginning to understand Laura's question correctly, I think she is asking, correct me if Im wrong Hennypenny, not if Jesus IS the Messiah you guys are looking for (bc come on.... We all know where you stand with what you believe about Jesus), but who do you guys believe the Messiah will be, or better put, what is expected of the Messiah when he does come up. How do Jews understand the messiah, his role, the prophesies about him.

With all due respect my fellow mdc'er, we ALL know what you believe about Jesus, LOL. What *Im* curious about is who you guys believe the messiah will be, the prophesies about him etc. Imagine if Jesus hadnt come and claimed to be the jewish messiah, who are you guys looking for. What do you look to in your scriptures that shows you what to look for?

you said this...

As far as "is Jesus the Jewish messiah," the answer is No. Period. N. O. He is not. The Jews have their own definition for who will be the Mashiakh, and he doesn't fit it. Period.



As one example, the Mashiakh is supposed to get it right the first time ... no "second coming" required.

And as another, the arrival of the Mashiakh is supposed to usher in world peace. Have any of you seen world peace lately? No, neither have I.

You also say your messiah will be just an ordinary man, nothing to do with sacrificing himself for the sins of the world, Im assuming that fits in there somewhere, to you guys, what we believe about this aspect of the messiah is nonexistant in scripture.
What else do you guys beleive about the messiah?
How have you guys come to understand this? Do you use scripture? Is it tradition, oral, written what?

This is what Im genuinely trying to understand. If so could you be specific about it, where do I look to find this information? Links?

Thanks

Is that a bit more clear.

p.s. he was sentences to death my roman counsel

p.s.s. why would you be afraid to ask them? just b/c people don't agree with you doesn't mean their opinion or view is worthless? sometimes understanding other people helps us better understand ourselves. asking their view isn't the same as asking their permisson (even if they don't know it haha!)

Laura, you silly goose, I know that. However it is my understanding that He was sentenced to death by the ruling jewish council in cahoots with the romans. The jews of Jesus day said that if they were allowed to sentence a man to death for any reason they would do so with Jesus, but since they were under roman rule, they couldnt and had to go to them to do the deed. It was jews who wanted him crucified, it was the gentiles (romans) who had the power to do it. Maybe we misunderstood each other there, OR maybe we understand it differently. This is my understanding from scripture.

Now about the other issue you brought up. I can be quite sensitive, or have been in the past. I have simply not wanted to really 'get into it' with those who can be rather insensitive about what they believe/feel about Jesus my Lord. A few years back, if I had read what Merpk wrote, Id have been very upset. k? Thats just me being honest. Thats part of the reason. Another part of my reasoning for never bringing it up til now, is bc I have never known how to word it . SO, in a way, Im thankful for you bringing it up. See, even if my understanding is incorrect as far as what you are asking, at least I got it out what *Id* like to understand better. Like I said, if Im honest, Im not sure my faith was as strong in the past as it is now to ask these questions and have people with such strong convictions object or counter what I believe without my own faith wobbling from it. Ive come a long way tho in that area. I know Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (I also understand why jews dont believe he is ), that He is God, that He died for my sins, in fact the sins of all who believe in Him. There's a lot I dont understand, but thats ok, there's a lot about Jesus that is offensive to us all, so for the sake of getting my questions answered, I sometimes keep it simple. I know what I know and Im certain that all my enquiries will be answered.. in this life or in eternity, bc yeah, God is so deep, that it would take eternity to explore His riches and glory and all that He is.

[Nazsmum]

This will be the last thing I write.......Do you mean the Lubavitich? What are the looking for? Where will he come from? Who will he be?

[merpk]

In re the Jewish view of Mashiakh/who will it be:

From an excellent beginners resource/info site: http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm



Other links from more traditional (ie., Orthodox) sites abound, but this is very generic and shouldn't offend anyone's sensibilities.



And, see, genifer, "my dear fellow MDC'er," I find it equally offensive for you to say that "Jesus is the Jewish messiah" just like that, as if Jews have no say in their own theology. He wasn't, isn't, and never will be.

It's impossible to get through this subject without offense, sorry to say.

For reference, a previous thread on exactly this subject:

From the OP linked: "So in another thread there is an assertion that to say "Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah and I'll tell you why" is disrespectful (to Christians) and is the equivalent of saying "I'm right and you're wrong" ...




It's not the longest thread in history and while it does go off on a few tangents, it's worth it for the explanation.




And no, there is absolutely zero about "sacrificing himself etc., etc." Jews don't do that.

[genifer]

I apoligise Merpk, I should have said that '*I* believe Jesus is the Jewish Messiah', would that cause any less offense? Because it is a genuine belief. Im terribly sorry it causes you offense. Its just the way it is tho. perhaps you can see thru it and answer my questions without letting yourself be offended? Like me reading your posts, I dont get offended anymore. And whats more, I dont mean any offense in saying this. Bc it is about intent where offense is concerned, isnt it?

I was looking for scripture or some answers about how Jewish tradition describes the messiah, what scripture do you use? OR is that not how it works in Jewish tradition? Ive got that link up in another tab so Im off to check it out. Ill bookmark it to check it out at my liesure.

[zinemama]

Can I ask for some clarification here? HennyPenny, I get that you have a lot of questions and I respect that. I would find it a lot easier to follow this thread if you would word your questions in question form. I have waded through all this and as far as I can tell, the only question I see is:

What do Jews believe about the Messiah we are currently expecting to come along sometime?

I realize there is a lot of other stuff you are looking into and thinking about, but for me, it would be a lot easier to follow if these questions were phrased as such. Thanks!

Also, just a thought from another Jew - it's already been made clear that Jews have many different POVs about stuff. And there may be some groups that spend a lot of time thinking/praying/wishing for Moshiach to appear in our lifetime. But neither I nor any Jews I know feel that way. It's kind of irrelevant to my practice of Judaism, really. I mean, if he were to show up, great. But the fact that he might doesn't have any impact on my religious life whatsoever. It's not something I think about.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Can I ask for some clarification here? HennyPenny, I get that you have a lot of questions and I respect that. I would find it a lot easier to follow this thread if you would word your questions in question form. I have waded through all this and as far as I can tell, the only question I see is:

What do Jews believe about the Messiah we are currently expecting to come along sometime?

I realize there is a lot of other stuff you are looking into and thinking about, but for me, it would be a lot easier to follow if these questions were phrased as such. Thanks!

Also, just a thought from another Jew - it's already been made clear that Jews have many different POVs about stuff. And there may be some groups that spend a lot of time thinking/praying/wishing for Moshiach to appear in our lifetime. But neither I nor any Jews I know feel that way. It's kind of irrelevant to my practice of Judaism, really. I mean, if he were to show up, great. But the fact that he might doesn't have any impact on my religious life whatsoever. It's not something I think about.

ZInemama -

ok if it works for you then I'm game! I tried hard to make my MANY question simplified into the 3 bulleted points. I apologize if it was still too confusing or muddled. I certainly know what Jews think of Jesus (or atleast a combination of thoughts that start and end with "NO, he isn't the Jewish Messiah"...) with some other views and ideals sprinkled in heh

so how about what YOU said:


What do Jews believe about the Messiah we are currently expecting to come along sometime?


that seems like a good way to word it. I like it. and i also liked your explanation too. thanks! that's actually quite helpful. everyone I've read about online and in the torah commentary I have seems to constantly mention Messiah. is this coincidence? do I just keep running into this? or is it that I'm reading a certain style book/article/website that somehow keeps bringing this up? I'm not sure how to reconcile that to it's core aside form like you said - everyone has a different interest in it. some to a larger amd some to a lesser extent. (am I understanding that right?)

MPerk - Genifer is like the gentlest person on MDC. I think she clearly went out of her way to use as little offense as humanly possible when talking about different views. I hope you can see it that way. She was being curious about your beliefs and stating what hers are just for the record. She didn't attack yours... and the "fellow MDCer" as I saw it, was a literary truce. meaning she respects YOUR opinion and YOUR right to have it even if she doesn't agree. all I see was a sincerely humble person asking for your thoughts. I hope you can see it as such. if she didn't think Jewish opinion of Jesus was important she wouldn't have asked your thoughts on the JEWISH messiah. it's just that we've covered the Jesus part of that discussion (again and again) and I assume she (as myself) wanted to move fwd with the next part of that discussion.

just so we are clear- I'd love an honest answer (lay it on me) do you have an issue with people wanting to know more about your religion? Because it seems like when the topic is brought up you just lay into us. maybe it's offensive to you that we ask? offensive because we're "Christian"? or are we just an annoying little bother? I mean really... what is it that gets you so annoyed with us so quickly? I do so try to be respectful of your beliefs and opinions but it's still met with a level of anger. (feel free to PM if that's more appropriate). I aint gonna stop asking questions because I have lots of them... but i surely don't aim to offend anyone. hope i can reconcile the both.

Genifer- Yes, what you're asking is what I was asking. I seem to be terribly inefficient on here at getting proper wording on to the screem for some reason. I never seem to have this issue in person? so... I don't know. maybe I'm not so great as expressing myself online.... hmm. I certainly do try! lol

about the roman counsel thingy - I gotcha. Yep you're right...it's taught to us that the Sanhedrin court took it to the roman court an influences them to crucify Him because they didn't have the authority...

thanks everyone. asking real questions here is hard. it really is. you have to wade through a lot of muck and ridicule and defensiveness to get to the people who want to take the time to give you some insight. but it's worth asking in the long run

[Nickarolaberry]

Laura, if I understand your original post correctly, you would like to know more about Jewish history, yes?

Well you've come to the right place. I actually teach Jewish history (seriously).

However, Jews and Judaism was around for about 1000 years before Jesus came along. There's a lot of context there and it might help you to go back a bit before making analyses/assessments about the way things were in Jesus' time.

If you're really interested, you could always start by reading a Jewish version (translation and commentaries) of the Books of Joshua, Judges, Kings I & II, Samuel I & II, Esther, Ruth, Daniel, Ezra-Nechemiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Twelve Prophets. There's a lot of very sophisticated and complete history there. I say you should do this with a Jewish translation/commentary because the Christian ones inevitably mistranslate, misanalyze, and miss the context of much of the text in favor of 'proving' their own view of the prophesies.

Those books will take you through and past the settlement of Canaan, rule of the Judges and the development of the Davidic monarchy, destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE, through the Babylonian exile, the rule of the Persians/Medes (Book of Esther) and the rebuilding of the Second Temple.

Although the story of Chanukah (follows the story of Purim by about 150 years -- the story really begins with the conquest of Alexander the Great in 330 BCE) is not contained in our TaNaCH -- (an acronym for our Bible which includes what we call Torah, Nevi'im - Prophets, and Ketuvim -- Writings), we have other sources for the history both from Josephus as well as others.

The story of Chanukah actually is a relevant detail in your quest; it was during this period that the stage was set for the later Roman occupation and rule over Judea -- a gradual oppression which led to the political, religious, and social context into which Jesus arrived. I would research this from a Jewish, not a secular perspective. Chanukah is a deeply misunderstood holiday in this culture -- at its core it represents not only a supernatural victory (the oil that burned for 8 days; the military victory of the few over the many -- Jews against Greeks) but also a victory over assimilation. Chanukah, and the period that came after it, was an explicit rejection of Hellenistic (later Western culture) values with which the Greeks sought to overwhelm and 'rationalize away' the concept of G-d over man and the spiritual message of Torah.

This idea and the enormous political, social, religious, economic, etc. earthquake it represented after the Hasmoneans defeated the Greeks reverberated through the Jewish world for centuries. It is certainly worth understanding from a Jewish historical perspective if you really want to grasp the world from which Jesus emerged.

Moreover, Christian scripture, to my understanding, underemphasizes (at the very least) the degree of Roman persecution and oppression present in Judea during Jesus' life. It's worth noting a few points (on which I can elaborate further, or you can read):

1) There were many people claiming to be "messiah" during that period; because

2) The Jewish messiah represents a leader who will free us from oppression in THIS world (i.e. a political and military leader, as well as a spiritual one); and

3) The period 25-75 CE was one of huge upheaval, revolt, and bloodshed in Judea as the Jews began their process of revolt against the Romans. It ended of course in the destruction of the Second Temple in 70CE, the last stand at Masada in 73 CE, and finally the defeat of the Bar Kochba Revolt in 135 CE; therefore

4) Jesus' message of unrest/subversion represented not just a spiritual challenge to Jewish leaders -- it was a very real threat that could have ended in huge bloodshed. If you believe that Passover was the time Jesus came to Jerusalem, presumably you also know that the population of Jerusalem expanded at least 20 fold during that holiday (festival of 'aliya l'regel -- going up to the Temple). The place was a tinderbox, the Roman soldiers shot (arrows) to kill at nary a provocation, and Jewish leaders (those "horrid Pharisees") were responsible for keeping the peace and preventing a mass bloodbath. However Jewish leaders did NOT have the authority to arrest/condemn/execute. Rather a difficult predicament.

5) "Pharisee" (a bad translation of the word "Prushim, or 'separatists') were rabbinic sages who were actually responsible for the rescue of Judaism from the ashes of the destruction of the Temple and made it possible for Torah and Judaism to continue. They redacted the Mishnah (Oral Torah, also given at Sinai to Moshe Rabbeini -- Moses Our Teacher, along with the Written Torah), re-centered Jewish life in northern Israel and later in Babylon, created education systems, analyzed and published our calendar in perpetuity which allows us to celebrate our festivals properly, and revitalized the concept of prayer after we were unable to bring proper korbanos (commonly noted as sacrifices, but this is a poor translation) in the Temple. Their criminalization in Christian scripture is and always has been a serious offense against truly understanding what Judaism and Jewish history is about.

6) The period after Jesus was crucified was one in which chaos, bloodshed, and the Diaspora befell the Jewish people, Judea, and Judaism. Into this chaos the Gospels were written -- it's also worth noting this when one tries to understand Jewish 'hostility' or whatever, against the nascent Christian movement. There were false messiahs, promises of freedom through revolt, and challenges to being Jewish everwhere, all the time.

Sorry for the book. Of course, I can direct you to sources and I am always happy to answer questions. But if you really want to 'get it' (or as we would say, "khap" -- truly empathize) you have to look beyond your own 'daled amos' (four steps -- personal world) and go to the sources.

[xekomaya]

I don't have any great answer, but your post made me think of the book A Rabbi Talks with Jesus by Neusner. Maybe it would be a helpful read.

[TzippityDoulah]

Nickarolaberry -

thanks! that's quite helpful!

ok I'm going to look into what you said, I'm trying to start at the beginnings. and I'm not tyring to "prove jesus was messiah" either. I'm just trying to find the truth is all. the truth from the beginning... not just around Jesus' time.

I have bought a JEWISH commentary on the Torah. and a book called "bedside torah". I wasn't sure what else to buy because I don't know a lot about Jewish authors and so forth. I'm really enjoying those and already I can see what a HUGE difference the scriptures make in hebrew context. being that I don'tknow a lick of actual hebrew I'm relying on translations of others... but even so it's a huge difference.


ok... lots to think about it. I'm going to get to it. (though at some point I think I need ot take a day or two off b/c my head hurts from reading so much.... and my kids need a bath heh)

what would be a good commentary to the books you said i should read? I only have the torah and it's comentary and I do have a tanakh but with no commentary.

[Nickarolaberry]

Oops, forgot about Chronicles. Talks about Solomon (Shlomo) etc.

A good (Orthodox) site for books on Jewish history: www.artscroll.com, www.israelbookshop.com There's a very complete, scholarly work called Book of Our Heritage by Eliahu Kitov which is extremely comprehensive, but written for a literate Orthodox Jewish audience; you might however find a great deal of use in it.

David Klinghoffer's book "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus" or something like that was actually a very good historical layperson's analysis of the period surrounding Jesus' time (the title is a bit, uhh...edgy...but it does treat the subject very seriously and academically).

Another good one -- From Text to Tradition by Lawrence Schiffman, a very respected historical archeologist of ancient Judaism.

There are tons of more academic works, but these are a good start also.

[TzippityDoulah]

thanks. i'm writing all this down. wish i had more free time!

[Smokering]

From a presuppositionalist perspective, I think the key to understanding the differences in beliefs is to go back to the first principles, ie. the basis...es (bases?) for both worldviews.

Christians hold either to sola Scriptura, in which the written text of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) is the sole rule of faith, and all theology is derived from thence; or to scripture plus sacred tradition (of various flavours - Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican, possibly others), in which scripture interpreted by tradition is the rule of faith from which theology is derived. There are also denominations which do not consider the canon closed: ie, which accept personal visions as revelations from God on equal authority with the written canon. And more controversially, there are denominations/sects which accept other texts as canonical, such as Mormons.

From my admittedly limited knowledge of Judaism, I believe most Jews use both the Oral and Written Torah as their rule of faith. The interpretation of words in the written Torah must be in line with the authoritative teachings of the rabbis (not exactly sure what's considered authoritative though - help me out, someone?). This colours the interpretation of Messianic texts. I'm pretty sure there have been "sola Scriptura" Jews who did not accept the authority of the oral Torah... Saduccees? Maybe? ...but generally, to put it in Christian terms, Jews are "Catholic" rather than "Protestant" - to be orthodox, interpretations of verses have to conform to Tradition.

Someone stop me if I'm way off base here, this is just what I've gleaned from a number of MDC discussions.

So under traditional (Tradition-al) Judaism, it is by definition impossible for Jesus to be the Messiah promised to the Jews. The rabbinic interpretations of the Messianic promises/prophecies in the written Torah do not fit. It isn't enough to say "But look, you can interpret Isaiah 53 in a way that proves Jesus was the Messiah" - whether or not you can is irrelevant, as rabbinic tradition has already settled on a different interpretation. (To use a more MDCish example, people often say that the original Abrahamic circumcision was less severe than modern circ, and that therefore modern Jews can/should use the "original" circ. However, it's not good enough as an argument, because he severer form of circ was ratified/mandated by rabbinic authorities during the Hellenistic period. So it doesn't really address the issues.)

In other words, the heart of Jewish-Christian disagreements comes down to questions of authority and truth - epistemic questions. If God gave infallible authority to Jewih religious leaders to interpret the written Torah, then Christianity cannot be true and Jesus cannot be the Messiah. If God did not, then it is possible that the Jewish leaders misinterpreted and/or added to the Torah, and that Jesus really is the Messiah promised in the texts. Clearly, being a Christian, I believe the latter; and for somewhat similar epistemic reasons I am a Protestant, not a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

Obviously people's mileage on MDC will vary. My point is simply that to understand the Jewish position you need to engage with Jewish epistemology (and vice versa, obviously... a Jew telling a Christian "But our rabbis say this verse means this!" is about as effective as a Catholic telling a Protestant "But the Pope says this verse means this!" - if the latter doesn't recognise the authority of said person/institution, it's hardly going to be a compelling argument). And... hopefully someone will be along shortly to provide a much more nuanced and intelligent description of Jewish epistemology than I just gave.