History of Christianity vs. History of Judaism - Page 4

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by elisheva

If I may gently add, however, sometimes it's better to not let your family know that you are questioning until you've reached the phase of coming to some conclusions (IF you get to that phase and IF your conclusions differ from theirs .

hehe nope I haven't let them in on it at all really. that would muddle things way too much. infact outside of MDC I've only talked over this with my husband.

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

I feel really out there on a limb. I am about as uncomfortable and in as unfamiliar as territory as i have ever been.

i have been out on that limb. (try not to make any sudden movements or it might snap! ) it's not easy or comfortable. i completely relate to what you said about trying to go back to the beginning and work forward from there. no matter what we're talking about - religion, parenting, nutrition, it could be anything - it's always wise to ask questions, and especially to question our own assumptions, the things we've believed "just because". sometimes when i get overwhelmed at everything that is up in the air, i'll think, "what do i believe?" and kind of make a mental list. it usually goes something like:

1. god exists
2. um . . .

but it still makes me feel better.

my family is christian, with varying degrees of devotion/practice but all attend church with some regularity. my family is no more eager to discuss this stuff than i am. they know i don't go to church, yet they know faith/spirituality is very important to me. i know they are concerned for me. we just leave it at that. i'm sure they are praying for me, which i appreciate - i would hope that (just as i am) they are praying for guidance and understanding and not simply for me to see things their way.

even without the loss of relationships, this process can sometimes be seriously lonely for me. it's hard to not belong anywhere, it's hard to try to figure out how to incorporate scripture, songs, ritual etc into my own practice without feeling like i'm trying to be something i'm not or appropriating things that really don't belong to me. it's a journey. maybe your journey won't lead you away from christianity at all, or maybe it will but will also lead you straight into the arms of another loving and welcoming community. if it leads you into this, i don't know, spiritual wilderness where i am, i hope it won't be for too long.

[smeisnotapirate]

Wow, this thread has gone a ways.

Laura, please feel free to PM me or we can go sit and get coffee and talk. I converted to Judaism from a (small o) orthodox Catholic family three years ago. With devout family, it can be messy - even the questioning.

Not saying conversion is right for you as well, just that I've been there and am currently dealing with the "consequences" with my family. I can empathize, totally.

Also, Judaism HIGHLY values honest questioning - it's one of those things I loved the most about it. Even my mensch of a rabbi questions opinions and interpretations all the time. Remember, as you study, that judaism is still a living, breathing, evolving animal. We aren't defined by our history, though it is an honored part of us - good and bad.

I wish you luck on your journey - the hardest step is usually the first. Keep us updated.

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

Can you elaborate a little here? Because although I know very little (compared to many here) on the Jewish faith vs Christian faith, the one thing I have always held tightly to was the greatest commandment. How is that not valid even if you have a "gross lack of understanding of the foundation of your own faith" ? TIA

i'm not saying, "hey, this really isn't the greatest commandment!" i wouldn't be so bold as to claim to know whether it is or isn't.

i'm saying jesus didn't make it "the greatest commandment" by answering that question that way. it seems to me that those words were, are and will always be the essence of judaism.

when i realized this, it didn't change the meaning of those words, but it did change the meaning of the story about jesus where he quotes those words. it also meant that all these people (my extended family, pastors, church school teachers) didn't know what they were talking about.

(this is kind of an aside, but i'm wondering what the words, "hear, o israel: the lord our god, the lord is one," could possibly mean to a christian?)

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

i'm saying jesus didn't make it "the greatest commandment" by answering that question that way. it seems to me that those words were, are and will always be the essence of judaism.

when i realized this, it didn't change the meaning of those words, but it did change the meaning of the story about jesus where he quotes those words. it also meant that all these people (my extended family, pastors, church school teachers) didn't know what they were talking about.

I guess this is what I'm wondering. How/where did you find that Jesus didn't make that the greatest commandment? I am curious because I didn't realize that was disputed.

[MyLittleWonders]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

i'm not saying, "hey, this really isn't the greatest commandment!" i wouldn't be so bold as to claim to know whether it is or isn't.

i'm saying jesus didn't make it "the greatest commandment" by answering that question that way. it seems to me that those words were, are and will always be the essence of judaism.

when i realized this, it didn't change the meaning of those words, but it did change the meaning of the story about jesus where he quotes those words. it also meant that all these people (my extended family, pastors, church school teachers) didn't know what they were talking about.

(this is kind of an aside, but i'm wondering what the words, "hear, o israel: the lord our god, the lord is one," could possibly mean to a christian?)

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

I guess this is what I'm wondering. How/where did you find that Jesus didn't make that the greatest commandment? I am curious because I didn't realize that was disputed.

I don't think I ever realized it was disputed either. I was never taught that Jesus came up with something brand new, or anything like that. From my understanding, there was a lot of debate back then about the greatest commandment and Jesus was just reiterating what Hillel taught:

Rabbi Shammai was an engineer, known for the strictness of his views. The Talmud tells that a gentile came to Shammai saying that he would convert to Judaism if Shammai could teach him the whole Torah in the time that he could stand on one foot. Shammai drove him away with a builder's measuring stick! Hillel, on the other hand, converted the gentile by telling him, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it."

~from JewFAQ

My understanding has always been that the debate was just being presented to Jesus as he was a respected rabbi and they wanted to see which side of the line he fell (Hillel or Shammai). When he stated the "Greatest Commandment" he was simply siding with Hillel in the great debate.

Christianity uses it as an example for not following the other commandments - that if we love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, body, and soul, and love our neighbor as ourselves, that we will fulfill with will of God. In terms of your other question about "the Lord our God, the Lord is One" - I think most Christians won't argue with that. There is only one God in Christianity.

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

I guess this is what I'm wondering. How/where did you find that Jesus didn't make that the greatest commandment? I am curious because I didn't realize that was disputed.

like i said:

Originally Posted by doubledutch

i wouldn't be so bold as to claim to know whether it is or isn't.. . . it seems to me that those words were, are and will always be the essence of judaism.

my original point in telling my story and my point when i responded to you, wasn't about whether or not this is the greatest commandment (or even whether there is any "greatest commandment"). it was a personal story, shared primarily with laura but obviously open to anyone else reading the thread, about being in a similar place of wanting to understand judaism as the foundation of christianity, and this eye-opening to the fact that the people who had formed my understanding of who jesus was were wrong.

i guess when i said jesus didn't make it the greatest commandment, i meant, if there is one, this was already it.

Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders

I don't think I ever realized it was disputed either. i didn't dispute it or say that it was disputed. I was never taught that Jesus came up with something brand new, or anything like that. i'm glad your upbringing didn't involve the same level of misinformation as mine. From my understanding, there was a lot of debate back then about the greatest commandment and Jesus was just reiterating what Hillel taught:
~from JewFAQ

My understanding has always been that the debate was just being presented to Jesus as he was a respected rabbi and they wanted to see which side of the line he fell (Hillel or Shammai). When he stated the "Greatest Commandment" he was simply siding with Hillel in the great debate. whoa, back up a sec. in the example you just gave, there doesn't seem to be a debate about which commandment is greatest - where's the other contender? beyond that, jesus siding with an existing school of thought rather than teaching something new is exactly my point - because that is so different from what i was taught about who jesus was. of course this was just church school bible class, not seminary.

Christianity uses it as an example for not following the other commandments - that if we love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, body, and soul, and love our neighbor as ourselves, that we will fulfill with will of God. In terms of your other question about "the Lord our God, the Lord is One" - I think most Christians won't argue with that. There is only one God in Christianity.

i added bolded notes, but in response to this last paragraph . . . i know my religious education was strange, but so (to me) is the idea that this greatest commandment would do away with all others. in the example you gave above, i don't take "commentary" to mean "don't worry about the other commandments" but rather that the rest of the commandments provide the instructions for how to keep this one. (btw, in the example you gave, the quote attributed to hillel most closely parallels what jesus said was kind of the "next in line" to the "greatest" right? the love your neighbor as yourself part?)

and the very last part? um. i just . . . i mean, why doesn't it say, "the lord is one but also three?" i know, i know, it's another thread, and it's never going to not bother me.

[Smokering]

(this is kind of an aside, but i'm wondering what the words, "hear, o israel: the lord our god, the lord is one," could possibly mean to a christian?)

AFAIK most Christians quite happily believe it: simply taking "one" to mean "one in essence, as opposed to the multiplicity of pagan gods around at that time", not "unary". Christians don't believe in three gods but in a God who is one in essence and three in person.

ETA: Just saw your response... I think it didn't say "one in essence but three in person" simply because that wasn't the point of the passage. It was drawing a distinction between Israel's monotheism and the polytheism of the surrounding nations; not providing a nuanced summary of the person of God. Just as when the Bible says "God is holy" it doesn't also add "in a manner that is tempered by and in conjunction with His other attributes such as wrath, mercy, love, justice etc".

I only found out that "Hear, O Israel..." was used to defend a unary God a few years ago, and prior to that it never occurred to me that it was a problem passage for Trinitarians. God is one, in a very important sense: we don't believe in a limited pantheon of three separate Gods. And Paul in the New Testament is quite happy to say God is one, after Christ was incarnated.

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

i guess when i said jesus didn't make it the greatest commandment, i meant, if there is one, this was already it.

Ohhhh ok, now I understand what you meant.. I was puzzled by this:

Originally Posted by doubledutch

when i realized that the people who had taught me everything i knew of christianity had such a gross lack of understanding of the foundation of their own faith, it changed everything for me.

I assumed you were saying that the people who taught you that Jesus claimed the greatest commandment were wrong and there was something I was missing....but you are saying that in general they had a lack of understanding of the old testament and the Jewish roots of Christianity?

OP: I'm sorry for threadjacking....maybe I should start a new thread because now I have a ton of questions

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

it usually goes something like:

1. god exists
2. um . . .

lol I know what you mean, I really do.

I have a list of things I believe too. and a bunch of them I *think* I believe... and then a mile long list of things I *wish* I could believe so things would be easier.

do you ever just wish your questions would go away? I just wish I didn't question honestly. I just wanna belong. and I don't. and yes I know God understands! and i am thankful! but I am long for human understanding too.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

OP: I'm sorry for threadjacking....maybe I should start a new thread because now I have a ton of questions

heh, no problem... I could open about 25 more threads b/c I have so many questions myself!

if you do open another thread, I'll follow ya there

[lotus.blossom]

I have been following this thread, and while I don't have anything intelligent to add to it, I just wanted to extend my empathy for what you are going though Laura. I too am on a quest. It started witht he birth of my latest baby. Suddently I felt that I had to KNOW what I believe. I was raised independant fundamental baptist (cultish) christan, and have spent the last 10 years as an Agnostic (much to the horror of my whole family) and have recently come to square one again. Reading the Bible, praying, questioning, wiki'ing, googling, reading articles....... and have been listing the things that I do and don't believe. I recently just switched my "label" from Agnostic to Deist. I'm not sure where I am going from here but it sure is liberating to start anew.

I think you are so brave for questioning. I wonder how many people in Christianity have questions but stay in their faith, lukewarm, and too afraid to actually think for themselves. I certainly have my moments of fear (regarding death/hell/heaven) but I am coming to terms with my beliefs and facing my fears head on.

Goodluck on your journey! And thank you to the previous posters for posting great info on Judaism. I am truely fascinated, yet embaressed that I knew nothing about it. What a different perspective on Christianity I have now.

[BMG580]

Just wanted to send a quick thank you out to whoever in this thread recommended Max Dimont's "Jews, God and History". I have scanned through this thread a couple times looking for whoever linked it so I could send a PM of thanks but I can't find it now.

HP - This is quite a book, I'm not very far along but I have even been reading passages out loud to my husband (who couldn't be less interested in religion) because it is so interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/Jews-God-Histo...d=4W1OOAJVFBW0

[TzippityDoulah]

ok I'm going to have to check that book out I guess

I haven't updated in a while because I'm not sure what to say exactly. I've learned a lot... a whole lot. but I really have far to go before I am able to draw any... conclusions I guess is the right way to put it.

this thread has been very helpful to me and I appreciate everyone who gave me advise, suggestions and encouragement.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

Just wanted to send a quick thank you out to whoever in this thread recommended Max Dimont's "Jews, God and History". I have scanned through this thread a couple times looking for whoever linked it so I could send a PM of thanks but I can't find it now.

HP - This is quite a book, I'm not very far along but I have even been reading passages out loud to my husband (who couldn't be less interested in religion) because it is so interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/Jews-God-Histo...d=4W1OOAJVFBW0

That was me. Isn't it great?

[MyLittleWonders]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

Just wanted to send a quick thank you out to whoever in this thread recommended Max Dimont's "Jews, God and History". I have scanned through this thread a couple times looking for whoever linked it so I could send a PM of thanks but I can't find it now.

HP - This is quite a book, I'm not very far along but I have even been reading passages out loud to my husband (who couldn't be less interested in religion) because it is so interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/Jews-God-Histo...d=4W1OOAJVFBW0

I just put it on hold at the library. I don't even remember reading the title the first time through the thread so thanks for saying something!

[Kidzaplenty]