What happens to miscarried babies? - Page 3

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Uh... if you read the quote, what he said was that the situation was different for the babies of believers (saved by the faith of their parents), so the response should reflect that. I don't agree with his views on covenant theology, but there's nothing intrinsically heinous about assuring people their baby's in heaven only in the circumstances one believes that to be the case.

I actually did read the quote and that was not the interpretation I found in it at all. I actually didn't get really any part of your interpretation of his words from the quote that was posted, and it read to me in a completely different manner.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by umsami

In Islam, a baby gets a soul at either 40 days or 120 days after conception (different views)... so I'm assuming any miscarried babies after that time, would go to heaven (Jannah in Arabic). I'm not sure what happens with miscarriages before 40 days...

I think the majority believe 120 days... and there's actually a whole bunch that happens at that time according to hadith (tradition/sayings).... an angel comes and writes his deeds, livelihood (career), time of death, and whether he will be blessed in terms of religion.

Generally speaking prior to ensoulment it has been advised to treat a miscarriage more as the loss of the hope of a person than the loss of a person, if that makes any sense -- i.e, to certainly acknowledge grieving but to leave off the funeral and associated prayers, aqiqa, etc. The accompanying belief would be that there really is nothing to happen to the young fetus outside of this life, having nothing eternal about it. Having never knowingly experienced an early miscarriage I'm really not sure how that might sit with people who do experience them ... I can kind of imagine it going the way of either a comfort or a rather deep offense.

After the point of ensoulment, it is the same as any child lost prior to the age of accountability -- the inherent goodness of the innocent and all that.

Then, of course, there is the growing body of scholars trying to wipe out the classical thinking on the matter in the name of modern embryology, but that the tendency is more a question of an involvement in the abortion debate than any actual scientific insights into when a soul enters a body (I mean, really) is pretty obvious. Still, those who believe in bumping up the point of ensoulment would also by default have to alter the more traditional view on early miscarriages.

[xekomaya]

This is way too long of a post..

Originally Posted by Smokering

xekomaya: I'm not Catholic and don't believe in Limbo or in infant baptism, just for the record. And my intention is not to make your grief any worse, but simply to present the arguments as I see them. I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you. I did remember that you're not Catholic, hard to keep up with what everyone does believe though. And please don't feel sorry for sharing your views. If I weren't up for a discussion I would not have posted here.

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

That's not quite true - the Church has taught that we cannot know the fate of the unbaptized for sure, children or adults.

Well, any unbaptized person is denied the beatific vision. Despite the lack of positive punishment, that loss is by definition, hell.

Originally Posted by merpk

Jews believe in reincarnation. Our souls keep coming back until they fulfill every mitzvah, or until they reach a high enough 'level' that they're done with their job on this plane of existence and they don't have to come back anymore.

I was actually under the impression that reincarnation was a minority/modern Jewish view point. I know it is irrelevant to the conversation as it stands since I asked what each person believed, but am I wrong about that?

Originally Posted by umsami

"Mu’adh b. Jabal reported on the authority of Allah’s Messenger s.a.w. who said "By him in whose Hand is my life, the miscarried fetus will drag his mother towards the paradise, with his navel string if she had shown the patience for the sake of reward from Allah."

I like that a lot.

Originally Posted by SunshineJ

Ah that's nice. Only comfort *your* people, the rest are criminals anyway so their feelings don't matter or aren't worth worrying about? Wow can I just say how glad I am that was a quote from another source and not the original thoughts of someone posting here?

Even if it is distasteful to you, I don't see how any religion is obligated to provide the fruits of its membership (heaven, nirvana, etc) to any nonbeliever. This belief is generally called vicarious baptism of desire and actually lots of people hold it.

Originally Posted by Liquesce

The accompanying belief would be that there really is nothing to happen to the young fetus outside of this life, having nothing eternal about it. Having never knowingly experienced an early miscarriage I'm really not sure how that might sit with people who do experience them ... I can kind of imagine it going the way of either a comfort or a rather deep offense.

I suppose it would all depend on your world view. Catholic theology used to hold something similar but it was primarily based on limited scientific understanding (and the lack of hpt's ). They used to say the soul entered the baby at quickening. That was changed though with a better understanding of the moment of conception so then...

Then, of course, there is the growing body of scholars trying to wipe out the classical thinking on the matter in the name of modern embryology, but that the tendency is more a question of an involvement in the abortion debate than any actual scientific insights into when a soul enters a body (I mean, really) is pretty obvious. Still, those who believe in bumping up the point of ensoulment would also by default have to alter the more traditional view on early miscarriages.

Can you explain this a little more? When you say "bumping up" do you mean more or fewer days? Are they trying to permit abortion in some way or argue against it?

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by xekomaya

Can you explain this a little more? When you say "bumping up" do you mean more or fewer days? Are they trying to permit abortion in some way or argue against it?

To argue against; it's an increasing number of scholars who would prefer to see it held that ensoulment does occur at conception.

I suppose the only substantial difference between this and the change in the position of the Catholic church you mentioned above would be that in our religious texts there's never really been a debate about the nature of conception, its relation to menstruation, the average length of gestation, etc, so there was the very specific time period between conception and ensoulment that Umsami mentioned laid out by early scholars. What we find people now saying is that our better understanding of things like when a heartbeat develops, that sort of thing, should re-inform our ideas. Those same early scholars used their views to make rulings on whether or not intentionally terminating a pregnancy was a sin and/or to what degree it was a sin, so it's those rulings that are the basic reason for modernly even caring whether or not they had it right.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by xekomaya

This is way too long of a post..

Well, any unbaptized person is denied the beatific vision. Despite the lack of positive punishment, that loss is by definition, hell.

The Catholic Church doesn't say that at all, for adults who are unbaptized, much less babies. Unbaptized adults may indeed get to go to Heaven and enjoy the beatific vision.

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I believe the first hint of a messiah/savior figure was given in Genesis 3. YMMV, of course.

yes, my mileage most definitely varies. i don't even think we're looking at the same odometer.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by xekomaya

Even if it is distasteful to you, I don't see how any religion is obligated to provide the fruits of its membership (heaven, nirvana, etc) to any nonbeliever. This belief is generally called vicarious baptism of desire and actually lots of people hold it.

I wouldn't expect people of the church to try to reassure someone who is Heathen that their child was in heaven - that would be of no comfort as Heathens do not believe in the Christian idea of heaven. Rather it was the don't bother to be comforting to non-Christians and the linking them to the same level as criminals that I found distasteful. Heathens (which are not the same as pagans) have their own destinies after death, so while you look at it as a religion not being obliged to provide the fruits of it's membership, most who are not of that religion (any religion) would be insulted by such an effort.

[Smokering]

Except he didn't say not to be comforting to heathen parents, or link them to criminals. "Reprobate" means "non-elect", not "criminal". He said that one should address believing parents "differently and more comforting" than non-believers to reflect what he saw as the difference in their positions. The alternative is not to comfort believing parents that their child is in heaven, or to lie to non-believing parents by pretending their child is in heaven (under Luther's view, I mean). I don't see how either view is better than the one you find so heinous.

[Nickarolaberry]

Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk
Jews believe in reincarnation. Our souls keep coming back until they fulfill every mitzvah, or until they reach a high enough 'level' that they're done with their job on this plane of existence and they don't have to come back anymore.

I was actually under the impression that reincarnation was a minority/modern Jewish view point. I know it is irrelevant to the conversation as it stands since I asked what each person believed, but am I wrong about that?

In answer to your question, actually this concept is a very ancient one and is alluded to in the Torah as well as other of our texts (Zohar) and in the works of our greatest sages. It's not a minority or modern opinion at all.

That said, Judaism tends not to focus on the hereafter as a goal of 'salvation' (we don't have that concept; or one of exclusivity regarding access to Olam HaBa -- the World to Come). And our concept of 'heaven' (Olam HaBa/Shamayim) is without doubt very different from the Christian one; as is any mention of 'hell' (Dante's Inferno or burning fires or devils/evil spirits would not be part of our theology).

We believe that every soul (neshama) has a specific 'tafkid' (purpose) in this world -- a spiritual purpose -- and that the luckiest of neshamos who are able to achieve that tafkid leave this world complete. For reasons we can't always understand or know, some neshamos don't complete their tafkid, or mess it up (that free will thing dontcha know), or whatever -- they take up accounts with G-d after they leave this world and return later to try again.

Our faith also teaches us that the unborn who leave early have achieved the highest state of spiritual perfection, and are able to return to Olam HaBa without being challenged by poor choices in this world. Similarly with those born with some kind of mental impairment who lack full 'free will' -- their neshamos are already on a significantly higher level than the rest of us (there are stories of our greatest Rabbis standing in the presence of the developmentally disabled in respect for the higher status of their neshamos).

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Except he didn't say not to be comforting to heathen parents, or link them to criminals. "Reprobate" means "non-elect", not "criminal". He said that one should address believing parents "differently and more comforting" than non-believers to reflect what he saw as the difference in their positions. The alternative is not to comfort believing parents that their child is in heaven, or to lie to non-believing parents by pretending their child is in heaven (under Luther's view, I mean). I don't see how either view is better than the one you find so heinous.

Actually I never said I thought it was "heinous" just that I didn't care for the tone and was glad that it was a quote. Seriously, this is NOT a huge issue for this discussion, just a sidenote. Your interpretation of the quote and mine are different. It's ok. It happens. Let's move on, shall we?

[NishaG]

Well, as a JW, I believe whole-heartedly that, with the hope of resurrection, I will receive a child (pregnancy) in the New Earthly Paradise to replace the one I lost.

[cagnew]

I am a traditional Catholic, and I believe what the Church teaches regarding this- life begins at conception, therefore a soul is created by God at conception. That was a comfort to me with both of my m/c's.

As someone said, the Church does not proclaim to know for sure where the souls of unbaptized babies go. Limbo is one possiblity, heaven another.

The CC teaches that, with few and rare exceptions, only baptized individuals can go to heaven. Baptism is necessary for salvation. The CC does say that there is something called baptism by desire, which could be said to include m/c'd babies of moms who would have bap'ed the baby after it was born. It would also possibly cover those people who have honestly never heard of baptism (have not heard about Christ or the bible, the CC or christian denominations).

Canon 849: "Baptism, the gateway to the sacraments and necessary for salvation by actual reception or at least desire, is validly conferred only by a washing of true water with the proper form of words. THrough baptism men and women are freed from sin, are reborn as children of God, ....."

There is also baptism by blood, which some believe would include aborted babies.

As for babies would die and had parents who had no intention of baptizing them, and who had knowledge of the christian church and practices... well, again, the CC doesn't explicitly say what happens to them. However, it would SEEM that they might fall under the group of people who have never heard of the CC, since they were only babies.

However, some people do believe in Limbo for unbaptized babies, and this has never been rejected by the Church. This belief was common for a looong time, and only recently lost popularity. I tend to think it makes sense. If God said you had to be baptized to go to heaven, then I would think that would apply to everyone. It wouldn't make sense that He would allow a truly innocent soul to go to hell, so Limbo would make sense. No punishment, but no Beautific Vision either.

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry

We believe that every soul (neshama) has a specific 'tafkid' (purpose) in this world -- a spiritual purpose -- and that the luckiest of neshamos who are able to achieve that tafkid leave this world complete. For reasons we can't always understand or know, some neshamos don't complete their tafkid, or mess it up (that free will thing dontcha know), or whatever -- they take up accounts with G-d after they leave this world and return later to try again.

Our faith also teaches us that the unborn who leave early have achieved the highest state of spiritual perfection, and are able to return to Olam HaBa without being challenged by poor choices in this world. Similarly with those born with some kind of mental impairment who lack full 'free will' -- their neshamos are already on a significantly higher level than the rest of us (there are stories of our greatest Rabbis standing in the presence of the developmentally disabled in respect for the higher status of their neshamos).

Ideas like this are one reason I, even as a non-Jew, absolutely love Judaism. This really resonated with me, thanks for sharing more about it!!

[xekomaya]

NishaG - Are there new babies created in your view of the New Earthly Paradise? Or just lost babies brought back?

Originally Posted by cagnew

The CC does say that there is something called baptism by desire, which could be said to include m/c'd babies of moms who would have bap'ed the baby after it was born.

That is actually a description of vicarious baptism by desire. Baptism by desire needs to be on the part of the specific individual.

I personally don't see how it fits at all with Catholicism because of the apparent inconsistency of it, but more and more I'm starting to believe in attainment of reason at the moment of death in order to have the opportunity for baptism by desire. I don't think you mentioned that option.

Originally Posted by Collinsky

Ideas like this are one reason I, even as a non-Jew, absolutely love Judaism. This really resonated with me, thanks for sharing more about it!!

I'm right there with you. If I could pick and choose, so far I'd pick the Jewish view.

[EviesMom]

Hmmm... I was raised Methodist, practiced Wicca for a decade, and am now searching because neither of those paths feel quite right to me currently. This is pretty woo-woo, but...

I believe that my son is the same spirit as my mother's miscarried child. I talked to him and to a SIDs death cousin in my dreams, they were babies/toddlers and wanted to "come back." I told them that I was only willing to birth children who would live long, full lives. I also had to tell them that I was not willing to birth or carry twins. I'm not sure if the other baby spirit is around somewhere, but I largely feel like she's moved on; I don't think she's ready to live a long life for some reason.

Strangely, my mother and my son don't like each other, haven't from birth, she just is weird and cold to him and while he's a loveable, kissy toddler who loves my dad, he's pretty take-it-or-leave it about my mother.

My daughter on the other hand, I have no opinion about her origins. I do wonder if she's entirely/largely new spirit-wise, she has a very "born yesterday" quality to her IMO despite being quite intelligent.

[cagnew]

xekomaya: Hmmm. I have been thinking about what you said. Baptism of desire would seem to require the individual to desire it. As far as unborn babies go, maybe it could still apply since the baby never consciously decides it wants to be baptised anyway- the parent is in charge of doing that for the baby. So, maybe the parents desire would be the same as the parents choice to baptise.

According to Lumen gentium, baptism of desire applies to those who never know Christ or the Gospel, and it is through no fault of their own. In other words, they have never been exposed to christianity. Instead, if they follow the natural law and strive to be good people, they would be considered baptised. I guess it is assumed that they WOULD desire to be baptised if they knew about it.

I don't know. Sometimes I think people like to stretch the teaching on baptism by desire to include people that it was never meant to include. No one wants to think that someone they love could be hell, and they make themselves feel better by imagining a loophole. This all gets into the "there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church" thing and that is way off-topic, so I'll stop here

[CherryBomb]

I'm Catholic and I've lost two babies, and I don't find the idea of Limbo upsetting. I prefer, of course, to believe that my children are Saints in Heaven with our Lord and Lady, because it's more comforting, but the concept of Limbo doesn't upset me and I think it's logical.

I don't believe that unborn babies are damned, though. To believe that would mean I believe that God creates people for the sole purpose of going to Hell and withholds the possibility of salvation from them, which I don't think makes any sense, and I don't see related in scripture or tradition.

[Tuesday]

I visited a woman who claims to be a medium and see dead people. She read my palm. She knew immediately (looking at my palm) I had two living children and I had a miscarriage. She said that the deceased child was a girl (I have always felt the baby was a girl) and she follows me around sucking her thumb. She said I could keep her with me or tell her it was okay to go.

I have no idea if this woman was a fraud (she knew other things about me that no one would know and she was highly recommended) but I share it with you all. Certainly, if what she said is true, it is interesting.

[guestmama9971]

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[bluebirdiemama]

I am a Christian and although there are many replies from Christian perspective I wanted to share mine because there are differing opinions on whther a baby goes to heaven or hell.
Mine is that a baby goes to heaven. My basis is mostly from Genesis. When I first started studying the Bible I wasn't all impressed with Genesis for some reason, and have recently started studying. It's really interesting because you can learn alot about our original purposes, what God wants for our lives, where evil comes from and the need for the law, etc etc
But my point is that I simply don't believe that we were created for the purpose of going to hell. God is all good, and he created us to love and worship him, to be in harmony with him.
James 1:13-14 says that "when tempted no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when. by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed."
I think that since God is good and nothing evil, I think the same can be said for 'God doing evil'. I won't claim to know what is God's like between justice and evil, because sometimes it seems thin, but when we are talking about an innocent, freshly created being, we are not talking about any outside factors or choices. God knows that baby will die, and I don't think it is his nature to create just to kill (spiritually). I think this way of thinking is in line with
Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..." ( for the purpose of -good, love...not to confuse the fact that we are sinful- we have free will, and chose sin)
and I don't know where the psalm is, but the one that talks about us being created wonderfully in the womb, much loved by God.
I think all these things line up with the belief that a baby is not created to grow for a few months in his mother's womb and then go to hell.

I didn't read the last page or so of posts (only have so many free minutes!) so that may be WAY off topic at this point... But it was fun to post

OPoster- I'm so sorry for your loss.... I have been there twice. The pain sometimes never goes away, but I hope and pray that you find peace about it.