3 month old with ear infection, ruptured ear drum, WWYD? - Page 5

[mbravebird]

Just want to add, for OP, that once this infection is resolved, you can take your babe to craniosacral or chiropractic for some physical support in opening ear drainage passageways for the future. Both of those methods have very good success rates for helping with ear infections. I prefer craniosacral if you can find a practitioner who's experienced with children.

Sometimes even the birth process can affect how open or narrow those ear passages can get. If she's having a lot of trouble draining this early, she may again, so it's worth looking for a good practitioner as soon as this is resolved, so you can be prepared and proactive for the future.

Hope everything is going better for both of you now.

[Degas]

I think the last fever spike was because of tylenol use. Instead of giving her tylenol the next time I gave her the garlic drops in the non-ruptured ear, and her fever went down to 99 and it she wasn't in pain anymore. I started giving her both the oral and ear drop abx a little bit after I posted here on the 31st. The health food store had the probiotics - so I got those. My baby is doing much better. Before I even started giving the abx, she was doing a lot better, actually.

Now, even though I'm giving it to her - I don't know how much she is getting, honestly. She has spit up and thrown up all or most of it. I know she's getting at least some of it - since her poop has changed. She hates this stuff and starts crying when I give even anymore than 1/5 mL at a time. I think that's why she threw it up, because she was crying so much she caused herself to cough and throw up. This morning is the first time she's kept most of it down. I found if I give just 1/5 mL at a time, let her swallow it, and give another 1/5 mL, etc until she starts getting upset (usually 2 mL total in a sitting), she keeps it down if I don't get it on her tongue. I have to give her 5 mL twice a day, so it is slow going. Let's hope she continues to keep it down if I do it this way, because I think getting a little bit is probably worse than getting none at all, since it will kill off some bacteria, but not all. The ear drops aren't staying in that well either since it takes so long for them to soak in. I'm putting a cotton ball in the outer part of the ear after I let the drops soak in for a little, but some of it doesn't get in the ear, I know. Anyone have additional tips of how to keep these and oral down?

I found the posts saying I was letting my baby be in pain and suffering, and why am I asking asking and listening to opinions here vs dr hurtful. When she seemed like she was in pain, and I couldn't alleviate it by nursing her, rocking her, or other means, I gave her tylenol (because I didn't know any alternatives). I never let her be in pain. I went to the dr as soon as I could get her seen by someone after her eardrum had ruptured. I didn't know she had an ear infection until her eardrum ruptured - I didn't realize the signs of a possible ear infection until too late, now I know. I posted on here after I had started calling the drs to see if I could get an appointment. I posted on here because previously I had thought other things *had* to be treated by abx, like ear infections, mastitis, and UTIs. Since being on here and through my midwife I have found out differently. I didn't know about a ruptured eardrum. I thought, well maybe this is another thing that the mainstream says has to be treated by abx, when it really doesn't. So I did a search on here. I found just as many people saying they just let the eardrum heal on its own as rx it, and nothing about a 3 mo old. Also, I figured the medical care here would be extremely mainstream, so I didn't totally trust what they would say - so I wanted to get opinions that were more like my own to bounce this off from. I don't have anyone like minded to bounce things off from in my life in person at the moment - in fact, I have people who are just the opposite, wanting to give and take medecine at the drop of a hat.

I didn't give the abx right away after we went to the dr, because we weren't able to get the rx filled until that night and she was asleep. I didn't give them the next morning because she was asleep. She woke up and I gave her the garlic drops in the non-ruptured ear, but I held off the abx, because I had called the dr to see if I could just do the abx ear drops instead of both oral and drops, and I wanted to see what she said. I was pretty sure what I was going to do after I talked to the dr - but, again, I don't have anybody like-minded to talk to, so I just wanted to bounce it off someone, see what they would do in my situation - since she was asleep again, and I didn't want to wake her up to give it to her. Plus, I think this dr *seems* like minded, but I really don't know her very well - I just saw her the one time. I know the previous dr that was there, but not this dr. I just wanted to be cautious giving her abx because I know the side effects, etc. I didn't think waiting until the baby woke up and I got a few opinions would do any harm. She *wasn't* in pain - she was smiling when she was awake, and she was eating well again. I was giving her tylenol and then the garlic ear drops in the non-ruptured ear after I found out about bad effects at tylenol. She started eating really well again a little before we went to the drs. I was doing what I thought was best for my baby, and I don't think telling me I'm letting my baby suffer in pain and causing her possible hearing loss is reflecting that. I realize not everyone was saying this, but those posts were hurtful. Thank you for all the advice and the well wishes, get better soons, and the posts saying they knew I was tryng to do best for her. Now I need to do lots of research so I will be more prepared next time. Thank you.

[JL83]

I'm glad she's doing better.

Please remember that in many cases, some kids just get ear infections alot. Other kids get one or none in their entire lives. It seems to have alot to do with the size of the ear canals. Please keep an eye on your DD in the future for more.

You don't need to start out treatment with abx. My personal rule of thumb for myself (I get 2 or 3 EIs each year as an adult) is to give it ~2 days taking Motrin (which reduces swelling). If after 2 days it seems to have gotten much better, then I forget about it. If I'm still in pain after 2 days I go to the doctor for abx. I've tried waiting it out longer than that and simply prolonged my agony.

Ear infections HURT. I cannot emphasize that enough. Unlike alot of other medical issues, the pain is really something else.

Some ways to recognize EIs in babies are that they will be better when help upright, but suddenly in pain when laid down. This is because of how the swelling works. So lying the baby down in the nursing position will cause them to be in pain and they won't nurse even though they want to.

Fevers are NOT dependable for diagnosing an EI. Many of mine, and my DDs, have not had an accompanying fever. The infection can be very localized to the ear.

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by JL83

I'm glad she's doing better.

Please remember that in many cases, some kids just get ear infections alot. Other kids get one or none in their entire lives. It seems to have alot to do with the size of the ear canals. Please keep an eye on your DD in the future for more.

You don't need to start out treatment with abx. My personal rule of thumb for myself (I get 2 or 3 EIs each year as an adult) is to give it ~2 days taking Motrin (which reduces swelling). If after 2 days it seems to have gotten much better, then I forget about it. If I'm still in pain after 2 days I go to the doctor for abx. I've tried waiting it out longer than that and simply prolonged my agony.

Ear infections HURT. I cannot emphasize that enough. Unlike alot of other medical issues, the pain is really something else.

Some ways to recognize EIs in babies are that they will be better when help upright, but suddenly in pain when laid down. This is because of how the swelling works. So lying the baby down in the nursing position will cause them to be in pain and they won't nurse even though they want to.

Fevers are NOT dependable for diagnosing an EI. Many of mine, and my DDs, have not had an accompanying fever. The infection can be very localized to the ear.

See, and that is the thing with ear infections- by the time you have given them 4-7 days to get better on their own, and they haven't, THAT is when the rupture occurs- that is the body's way of getting rid of the bacteria. When my son has had BAD infections, and ruptures, is when he gets a fever. Typically he doesn't get a fever at all with ear infections. Sadly, he has become so accustomed to the pain of ear infections that they just don't hurt anymore, and the last two have gotten to the point of rupture before he complained of the pain. He has tubes now, but before they were put in, we were having to go to the dr for each bad cold to make sure he didn't have a festering ear infection. He had and has some residual hearing loss from the ear infections/ruptures. I do as well, sadly

[JL83]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

See, and that is the thing with ear infections- by the time you have given them 4-7 days to get better on their own, and they haven't, THAT is when the rupture occurs- that is the body's way of getting rid of the bacteria. When my son has had BAD infections, and ruptures, is when he gets a fever. Typically he doesn't get a fever at all with ear infections. Sadly, he has become so accustomed to the pain of ear infections that they just don't hurt anymore, and the last two have gotten to the point of rupture before he complained of the pain. He has tubes now, but before they were put in, we were having to go to the dr for each bad cold to make sure he didn't have a festering ear infection. He had and has some residual hearing loss from the ear infections/ruptures. I do as well, sadly

And that's why the 4-7 days thing is, IMHO, complete crap.

The actual research says that for a normal, non serious ear infection, in a child over 2 (because they can communicate better), will get better in the same time with or without abx. And that time frame is 4-7 days.

Add in any of a number of complicating factors, like very young age or pain that persists even with pain killers (which is why the advice is for children over 2 who can tell you their ear still hurts after they take the Motrin or Tylenol) and abx is still a win.

[mommy2maya]

When my baby was very tiny, she got a cold, and was having what seemed to be an EI. I think she was about 2-3m. Anyway, the dr told me that if she HAD had an EI, it would be quite serious, because most babies under 6m don't typically GET ear infections. She was a preemie, so I was very very cautious with her, especially after having my son who has had tubes twice, and just lots of illnesses.

[FireWithin]

Degas - thanks for posting and updating and thank you for clearing explaining what comments were helpful and not.

Treating my kids holistically has been a process (as I mentioned in a previous post). There are many things that can be done preventively. As you said, this is now the time to do research and do things to help your girl with future illnesses.

I have learned a huge amount from the acute homeopathy thread here. I am at the point that I treat my family's illnesses mostly with homeopathy. There is a learning curve though, but the learning is rather fun.
I also have learned a lot from the allergy board. Keep in the back of your head that many repeat infections are related to food allergies. I am not saying that is what is happening to your girl, just keep it in mind. It might be useful to spend some time on the allergy board and see if she is showing other allergy signs, and maybe you can connect some dots.

best of luck to you

[tessie]

If you're having problems getting the oral meds in try mixing it into a little expressed bm and use a syringe to squirt it into the cheek.

Glad she seems to be on the mend.

[sbgrace]

I'm so glad she's doing better!
I remember giving meds to my son at that age (reflux) and it is hard.

Cradle baby's head in the crook of your arm. With the same hand, encircle baby's cheek and use your middle or index finger to pull out the corner of his mouth, making a pocket in his cheek. With the other hand drop the medicine into this cheek pocket a little at a time. This hold keeps baby's mouth open and his head still. Best of all, the traction on baby's cheek with your finger keeps him from spitting the medicine back out. Maintain the traction until all the medicine has gone down.

The head is a bit backward and to the side (not straight/horizontal but so the head is leaning backward somewhat). Going to the cheeks is important and going slowly while sort of gently preventing spitting it out. If you go straight back or too fast the baby will gag. If you have the head more upright and/or don't control the cheeks a little she's more likely to spit it out.
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/T110206.asp

Make sure you get the probiotics in her three hours after every single dose and you should be taking probiotics yourself so they come through your breastmilk.

That she had such a serious infection so young would make me want to take some action--cranial sacral would be good if you can find that otherwise chiropractic care. Look for food allergies. Try to keep her from getting colds at least until she's got a stronger immune system because I suspect her ear canals don't drain well structurally (my son was like that). Of course it's also possible she just got a really aggressive bacteria at a time when her body coudln't mount enough of a response and you'll never have another issue.

Keep doing the probiotics (yourself and her) for a month after the antibiotics if you can and no less than two weeks.

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by Mammo2Sammo

Keep in the back of your head that many repeat infections are related to food allergies.

Not necessarily. Some kids have narrower than usualy eustachian tubes which makes it difficult to drain fluid. Yucky fluid hanging about means more breeding ground for bacteria.

[Jennifer Z]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

Not necessarily. Some kids have narrower than usualy eustachian tubes which makes it difficult to drain fluid. Yucky fluid hanging about means more breeding ground for bacteria.

My dd had that. It isn't uncommon to have that happen, and it is why ear infections are so much more common in kids than adults, and more common the younger they are. In GENERAL, they aren't as common in breastfed infants, but breastfeeding is obviously not magic. My dd also joined us early, and that can be a risk factor too. No food allergies or sensitivities though.

My dd grew out of it and doesn't really get ear infections any more. (*knock on wood*) Thank goodness. That has to be one of the most excruciating amount of pain, right up there with tooth abscesses and severe, emergency level, gall bladder pain. Labor is NOTHING compared to that pain.

[Degas]

Thank you for the tips on how to keep her medicine down! I'll have to try them tomorrow.

I believe she actually does have allergies; I'll have to check out the allergy thread. I had no idea that allergies and ear infections could be connected. She has cradle cap and what I believe is eczema in the ears (scaling in and behind the ears). She also has projectile spit up somewhat often. I am starting to do an elimination diet - so I'll have to check out the allergy thread.

[mommy2maya]

cradle cap is not uncommon in babies, neither is flaky skin in/behind the ears. I would not bother with an elimination diet if you are not seeing real signs of an allergy.

[FireWithin]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

cradle cap is not uncommon in babies, neither is flaky skin in/behind the ears. I would not bother with an elimination diet if you are not seeing real signs of an allergy.

those are both common signs of allergies. Both my son's scalie bits behind their ears disappeared after removing their allergens.

Cradle cap is commonly caused from excess yeast on the skin, which can be caused from a biotin deficiency which is caused from a gut being unable to properly absorb the biotin or from a person having issues with their biotinase receptors - both of them related to non-ige allergies.

For us, our cradle cap did not disappear with food removal. My son still has it, and I believe he is still struggling with yeasties.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Scullery

I think you're misinterpreting the literature, which isn't unusual for lay people at times, it's all pretty complicated. Scientists are pretty much pushed to publish publish publish, and they often submit hypothesis with limited research to do so, but it doesn't necessarily mean it has a definite meaning as much opens the door for the next researcher to expand on it. AFAIK there is nothing more in scientific literature that conclusively states Tylenol has this expansive reaction and is a gateway to larger, more serious infections. If so, there would be more info in larger, peer-reviewed journals.

Tylenol is a pain reliever, and EI's can be agonizing, and this little baby deserves pain relief. Also, it is a fever reducer, and fevers can be very dehydrating from insensible fluid loss (you breathe faster with a fever, and when you breathe you lose some fluids.) Babies dehydrate VERY quickly.

Degas, you sound like a very loving mother and I know you don't want to keep your child in pain any longer than necessary. I think the benefits of using the Tylenol and the oral antibiotics outweigh the possible risks. The risks of trying blindly different natural methods right now are keeping her in pain and having the infection becoming worse and possibly life threatening, and I know you don't want that.

I have not misinterpreted the literature at all I don't think.....but being a layperson and all what do I know? Once AGAIN. I am not suggesting the OP not treat her child or should knowingly keep her child in pain. People need to be aware of the risks and benefits of any drug they administer to their child. Many people think Tylenol is totally benign...it's not and there is plenty of scientific literature about treating infections/fevers with tylenol. That being said, If My child were in pain and tylenol was the only thing that I thought would work and was avaliable to me I would use it..and to the OP, so glad your LO is better!!