questions that crossed my mind - Page 5

[Leatherette]

I am with T. Elena....I can't provide a clear "defense" for my daughter's adoption without divulging details that are not for others to know. Out of respect for my daughter and her birthfamily, I will have to stop trying to defend our family and the choices we have made.

I understand that some people are against adoption. Yes, I have learned that. I get it.

L.

[ramblinrose]

We adopted our daughter from Guatemala. I have no doubts about the legality of her adoption. We researched and used an extremely reputable agency..we have photos and information about birthfamily. We plan to try and establish contact with them.

The media has done a good job and perpetuating the "horror" stories. http://guatadopt.com provides lots of information on adoptions from Guatemala and the negative and false media potrayal. This site also has a link to Families without Borders under organizations which is another educational site about Guatemalan adoptions.

The point being...you can't believe everything you here in the media.

Mommy to two beautiful kids, age 6 and 14 months

[grisandole]

Wow, great thread, very informative. We are hoping to adopt, domesticlly, through our state. We're getting licensed for foster/adopt; so a child coming to us will have been taken by the state rather than "given up" most likely. I am adopting, even though I am not infertile, because there are many, many, children here who need families, and I want more children.......so it works out We have thought about this alot. No, my reasons aren't totally altrustic, as I want something in return- the amazing feeling of helping a child and giving them a family.

I've thought alot about adoption, and our society, and birthparents and adoptive parents and such. I do believe that some birthparents give up their children for the wrong reasons, that some are pushed to do so, and that our society does in fact contribute to birthparents placing children for adoption. Please note, I said *some* birthparents. There are some that make an informed decision. But, often when a single woman gets pregnant, they are told, sometimes subtly, sometimes overtly, to consider adoption. Some have it shoved down their throats. Adoption is seen as the altruistic, "right" thing to do. And that simply isn't always the case. I think this thinking, and this societal pressure, stems from our society seeing pregnancy and birth outside of a traditonal, middle-income, middle class situation as "bad" or something to be pitied. Even happily married, low-income pregnant women are usually seen with disdain- the comments begin'- "Pregnant again? How can you afford it?" "Haven't you heard of birth control?" "Must be on welfare" etc. Our society really frowns on having kids unless you are in the proper social and economic bracket. And I think this is reflected in the birthparent profile- how many birthparents are middle or upper middle class? Most are lower income or working class; they are led to believe that they can't afford and don't deserve to have children.

Now, this doesn't mean that adoptive parents are evil for adopting. I'm just pointing out that our society sets up these women to feel inadequate, and I think something needs to be done about that. Crisis preg. centers aren't the way to go, because they don't offer much support, and certainly have an agenda. We need to find a way to empower women and let them know that pregnancy and children are a good thing, something to be celebrated, not ashamed of. And that poor people deserve children, too.

The thing is, the first thing that pops into people heads when there's a young, unmarried, poor pregnant girl is "she should give it up for adoption" rather than "how can we help her?" and I think, we should focus on the helping rather than condemming. Fix the problem rather than ignore it. For example, my dh teaches high school. One of his student's is preg, she's 18. She was talking to him, and she's unsure of what to do- her mom isn't very supportive, her bf wants her to move in with him and have the baby, but her mom is against it; my dh was just talking to her, and somewhat jokingly told her that we were almost licensed to be foster parents, and that in the future we were going to take preg. teens (we aren't set up for it now, house is too small), and if she decided to give up her baby we would take it. She asked if she decided to have it, would we foster her baby if she needed help (not sure why she asked). He said yes. Now, I was pissed at him. This is a prime example of pushing adoption. I don't agree with that at all. He should have offered her support on having the baby, since that's what she wanted- she was trying to figure out logistics, and how she could do it. He offered to take the problem off her hands. Now, my dh was very well intended, he didn't want to steal her baby or anything. He wanted to help, and thought she'd appreciate the offer and "put it out there". But I think by even "putting it out there" it sets a tone- it says "hey, my wife and I are good people, great parents, we'd be a great family for your baby" which, by default, says "you are just a single young poor parent, by yourself, why don't you give your baby a good home?" which is offensive, wrong, and makes the mom doubt herself.

Well, I've rambled enough. Just to clarify, I certainly don't think every birthmom has been coerced and brainwashed, and I dont' think adoptive parents are bad. But, I did want to throw my thoughts out there.....


Kristi

[Leatherette]

I think the key here is not to make assumptions about any type of family - poor or rich, older parents or younger parents, two-parent or one-parent, adoptive family or birth family, one child or many children.

Discussing individuals in terms of generalizations takes away their humanity.

L.

[T. Elena]

Amen. Every adoption situation is unique and complex. All involve losses (and hopefully gains), usually for every member of the triad.

I think it's tempting for some people not very familiar with adoption (and I'm not trying to point any fingers here) who, with their vague knowledge -- based partly on anecdotes and skewed media representations of adoption -- see some of the losses of adoption and think that surely if adoption involves this kind of pain, there must be something fundamentally wrong with adoption and the choices made by birthparents and adoptive parents.

There are an infinite number of grays in adoption. But -- guess what? -- that's life. In real life there isn't always an absolute good and an absolute bad choice to make. We all make the best choices we have, given our choices.

[Leonor]

When I said the birthmother was mistaken (for giving her child away with the reason she wanted a father for her and she couldn't provide one) I should have explained my thoughts better.

First, she could never know if she would find another man that could be a decent partner for her and a decent father for her child. Babies want breasts anyway.

Also, her child might not care for having a father and might resent not having being cared by her real mother. Who knows what she wants and what she will think when she grows up.

I am not against adoption. It's wonderful to provide a safe home for a child. But I still think helping birthparents that care for their children, if there's the chance, it's a better answer than adoption. It's what I would do if I could.

And I agree with you, Kristi, when you said:

But I think by even "putting it out there" it sets a tone- it says "hey, my wife and I are good people, great parents, we'd be a great family for your baby" which, by default, says "you are just a single young poor parent, by yourself, why don't you give your baby a good home?" which is offensive, wrong, and makes the mom doubt herself.

[AdinaL]

This is a tough thread for me for a lot of reasons.

It may be that I am looking at adopting in the hopefully near future.

I don't think that any person in an adoption situation, saying "I would be a great parent for you child" is really thinking that the birth mom is not adequate, or would be worse at parenting than the adoptive parents. Certainly I wouldn't be. I think that is said as more of an assurance to the mother giving up her child, that the child will be well taken care of. In some cases, it might even be assuring the birth mom that they are a good choice. But I certainly would not ever be implying that they were less able to parent their child than I was. Ever.

I think that one thing that people overlook, is that some birth moms don't want to raise their child. They do want to give the baby up. For some it is not a question, it is a decision that was a decision taht they wanted to make. Supporting women who want to keep their kids is a wonderful thing, and I certainly do help out the single moms that I know in any way I can. But who am I to say that they should have to keep their child if they honestly don't want to.

I don't know I am rambling.

[T. Elena]

Leonor, you should be aware that using the phrase "real mother" to describe a birth mother (as opposed to an adoptive mother) is considered outdated and insensitive in most adoption circles. I would take care not to use that term around folks involved in adoption unless you're prepared to offend. Personally, I consider Mia's birthmother a "real" mom in the sense that she took care of her in utereo and put much effort and heart into planning her future as best she could under the circumstances. She will continue to wish Mia the best in life and wants to keep in touch so that she knows how Mia is doing and so that they may, if Mia wishes, have contact later.

I consider myself Mia's "real" mother too. For the rest of my life, I will be there for Mia. I will give her real love, real kisses, real hugs, real guidance, real (gentle and positive) discipline. Even real breastmilk (since you had to bring up breasts in this context). I will give her real support as she works to understand her adoption experience, and I will support her if and when she wishes to contact her birthmother and/or establish a relationship with her.

It seems, Leonor, that your thinking on this issue is so different from mine that I feel no more interest in participating in this discussion any more. I think I will spend my time and energy on real mothering instead.

[Amazlilith]

Originally posted by T. Elena
Leonor, you should be aware that using the phrase "real mother" to describe a birth mother (as opposed to an adoptive mother) is considered outdated and insensitive in most adoption circles. I would take care not to use that term around folks involved in adoption unless you're prepared to offend.

It seems, Leonor, that your thinking on this issue is so different from mine that I feel no more interest in participating in this discussion any more. I think I will spend my time and energy on real mothering instead.

AMEN! I am done with this thread!

[kate-astrophe]

I feel the need to interject a few things even though I promised myself I wouldn't even *look* at this thread anymore.

Originally posted by AdinaL
I don't think that any person in an adoption situation, saying "I would be a great parent for you child" is really thinking that the birth mom is not adequate, or would be worse at parenting than the adoptive parents. Certainly I wouldn't be.

It's not intentional, of course. But sit in that seat among hundreds of dear birthmother letters and just try to hold on to a shred of confidence. These people have everything you don't. They have everything that society sees as necessary to raise a child well. The idea that the *best* thing for her baby would be to keep her first family together and healthy gets lost. Usually women don't have anyone to remind them of that.

I think that one thing that people overlook, is that some birth moms don't want to raise their child. They do want to give the baby up.

Do you mean that even if they had the money and the circumstances in place to keep the child, they would still place him/her for adoption? Maybe this does happen, but I've never seen it. There are many birthmothers who believe that this is what they *must* do, but I've never seen one that actually *wanted* to do it. Some birthmothers appear this way before the bay is born, because they don't realize how much they love and have bonded with the baby they are carrying until after the birth. There is a woman I came across when I was involved in birthparent support that had become pregnant as a result of rape. By all appearances, she was one of the women you would peg as "not wanting" her baby. She did end up placing her baby, but became very active in birthparent support and adoption reform. She wrote a wonderful pamphlet http://hslowe.tripod.com/BOOKLET.pdf
about the effects of adoption on birthmothers. It's one of the most accurate and complete resources available to women considering adoption.

And I think this is reflected in the birthparent profile- how many birthparents are middle or upper middle class? Most are lower income or working class; they are led to believe that they can't afford and don't deserve to have children.

You might be surprised at how many birthmothers are *not* working class. Agencies have kept statistics on the profile of women who end up placing the baby instead of keeping the baby. Turns out, the higher income her backgroud, the *more* likely she will place the baby. I other words, the more she has, the less the thinks she has. With someone of a higher income backgroud, there is more stigma from taking help from others, be it welfare or family. There is a higher premium placed on being "independant" before having children. There is also the stigma of having children before one finishes their education. Many birthmothers have placed because of that.

I'm sorry if I've given the impression that I'm anti-adoption. I'm not; adoption certainly has a place in today's world. I just wish it wasn't necessary; that every mother had the social, financial, and educational means to parent her child well.

-Kate

[Leonor]

Originally posted by kate-astrophe
I'm sorry if I've given the impression that I'm anti-adoption. I'm not; adoption certainly has a place in today's world. I just wish it wasn't necessary; that every mother had the social, financial, and educational means to parent her child well.

Edited to add that the pamphlet you linked is so good! And should be read by adopting couples as well! Or maybe a special version could be done for adopting couples. The agencies and pregnancy crisis centers are even worse than I thought! What an ugly industry!

[T. Elena]

Leonor: Contract?! Saying that doesn't just belittle me and my husband, but Mia's birthmother, too. Must you assume she is so naive? And do you really think I'm oblivious enough not to know what Mia's name means? (Incidentally, Italian is not the only language in which "mia" means "mine.") There are many dimensions to the human experience of belonging.

I'd like to share a quote here.

"As we consider the enduring questions of human identity -- who am I, and where do I belong? -- we bereft postmodernists often conclude that the answer is 'nowhere.' Perhaps this is one reason for the popularity of search and reunion stories. Apparently exceptional, they are in some ways paradigmatic of family life writ large. Their stories of fractured kinship resonate with readers touched by other experiences of family loss: of families divided by alienation, desertion, betrayal, divorce. Many people experience contemporary life as fragmented and atomistic; as families, too, falter and fail, we seem to have no secure place. Adoption confronts us with the realities of loss and limitation that attend every human life. Some have responded by insisting that only blood relationship can constitute enduring solidarity. Adoption challenges us, instead, to add a much older question to our reflections on identity: Who is my neighbor? By that question we are called to hope and trust anew in the only authentic kinship we know: bonds forged in love and sustained by will and commitment."

-- Barbara Melosh, _Strangers and Kin: The American Way of Adoption_

I am truly finished with this conversation. You can take more cheap shots at my family if you wish; I'm through discussing this, truly.

[Leonor]

T-Elena, read the pamphlet Kate linked! Please!

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by Leonor
...I'm sure you are a lovely mother to Mia (strange that her name means "mine" in Italian)...

Why is that strange? It sounds like you are implying that her daughter is not hers. Her daughter belongs to her as much as any of our children belong to us. My son is mine. I am his. So too for adoptive families.

Originally posted by kate-astrophe
...Do you mean that even if they had the money and the circumstances in place to keep the child, they would still place him/her for adoption?...

Of course. Having sex and getting pregnant does not make a woman a mother. They are two entirely seperate things. Not every woman who has sex and gets pregnant is going to be ready to be a mother. Period.

By the way, I read the pamphlet. I'm not impressed.

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by T. Elena
...I am truly finished with this conversation. You can take more cheap shots at my family if you wish; I'm through discussing this, truly.

I am truly sorry that you are being subjected to this. It never ceases to amaze me how some people will try to promote respect of birth mothers by disrespecting adoptive mothers. Every person in an adoption deserves respect. Every person.

Here are my favorite quotes about adoption:

"Adoptive families are made of heart and soul instead of biology and genes. You'll cry like a river and in the end... you'll find that river is truly the river of life." - Randolph Severson, Ph.D.

And on that wonderful note, I will end my participation in this thread.

[Leatherette]

I have the feeling people just want to shut off the conversation, though.

T-Elena, I'm sure you are a lovely mother to Mia (strange that her name means "mine" in Italian). But you can't get divorced ever, or you'll break the "contract" with her birth mother, have you thought of that?

I don't understand where you'd get the feeling that people would want to shut off the conversation. Your input has been condescending, ill-informed, and insulting. Pushing an agenda is not having a conversation.

Think the pamphlet covers territory that adoptive parents haven't considered? Wrong. Think all adoptive parents want to keep its ideas away from women considering making an adoption plan? Another incorrect assumption.

I would hope all birthparents are given all of the information they need prior to making their decision. I haven't met an adoptive parent who didn't feel the same way.

People make important life decisions they later regret every day. Hmm......what's the divorce rate these days? Except for adoptive parents, of course. Our contracts forbid it. :

L.

[kate-astrophe]

Think the pamphlet covers territory that adoptive parents haven't considered? Wrong. Think all adoptive parents want to keep its ideas away from women considering making an adoption plan? Another incorrect assumption.

I would hope all birthparents are given all of the information they need prior to making their decision. I haven't met an adoptive parent who didn't feel the same way.

Years in birthparent support have proven otherwise. You can disbelieve if you want, but there are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who don't mind railroading vulnerable young women into a quick decision. Sad but true. I'm not saying that all, or even most, adoptive parents are like this. But this exists far more than people are willing to admit.

Frankly, the lack of empathy for birthparents on this thread disturbs me. For some reason, it's okay to say that the people who defend birthparents are being condescending, bullies, ect. I don't agree with a lot of what Leonor has said but I think she's being unfairly maligned for having an opinion that's not PC. Birthparents in open adoption spend their lives tiptoeing around the insecurities of adoptive parents without getting any real acknowlegement of their own struggles and grief. It's simply not PC to side with the birthparent.

People make important life decisions they later regret every day. Hmm......what's the divorce rate these days?

People are shamed into getting married and then divorced? Other people make that decision for them? I'm sorry, I don't see the parallel :

Having sex and getting pregnant does not make a woman a mother...

So, if someone has sex, gets pregnant, gives birth, and the baby dies at two days old, she gets to be a mother but someone who parents for a pregnancy plus two days in the hospital and then relinquishes doesn't? What's the difference? A person becomes a mother when she gives birth. Birth is a deeply moving and changing experience. Go tell the women on the birth boards that birth doesn't matter. Birth is not the only way a woman can become a mother, but once a woman has given birth, she is never the same.

originally posted by pugmadmama
By the way, I read the pamphlet. I'm not impressed.

[AdinaL]

I am returning this thread.

I ask that if you cannot express yourself, that you scroll on by, please. This is a very sensitive topic for a lot of people.

I think that this can be a good discussion if everyone remains civil, respectful and everyone takes a moment to "try on every one else's shoes", you know?

Thank you.

[Leatherette]

It's simply not PC to side with the birthparent.

The frustrating thing for me about this conversation is that there are people who are seeing it as birthparents VS adoptive parents. I don't see adoption that way at all. My daughter's birthparent is a birthparent. I am an adoptive parent. I am not better than her, she is not better than me. Our titles only explain our relationship to our daughter.

Another frustrating thing is the narrow view of birthmothers that is being portrayed. All birthmothers are not young, naieve and having their first child. But all of the anti-adoption arguments being stated in this thread seem to imply that this is the case.

Defending my position as an adoptive parent is not turning a blind eye to the pain of a birthparent. I have given birth; it would of course rip me apart to lose my son. I have adopted; it would also rip me apart to lose my daughter. It seems like the only way to show that we respect birthparents is to not adopt in the first place. At least, that's the message I am getting. Or to list out the ways in which we donate money or time to keeping babies with parents who are young and/or low income.

I am just not sure what the point of the whole thread is. Is there some list of situations when it is okay to adopt and when it's not? What are the guidelines?

L.

[kate-astrophe]

Originally posted by Leatherette
The frustrating thing for me about this conversation is that there are people who are seeing it as birthparents VS adoptive parents. I don't see adoption that way at all. My daughter's birthparent is a birthparent. I am an adoptive parent. I am not better than her, she is not better than me. Our titles only explain our relationship to our daughter.

It's great that you have that kind of clarity, but most adoptive parents I've come across in real life don't. I draw my conclusions from my own experience (as does everyone else) and I've found that you're the execption, rather than the rule.

Actually, the people who discuss adoption in online forums have always given me a false sense of reality. I hardly ever run across well informed adoptive parents in real life, I'm sorry to say.

Originally posted by Leatherette
Another frustrating thing is the narrow view of birthmothers that is being portrayed. All birthmothers are not young, naieve and having their first child. But all of the anti-adoption arguments being stated in this thread seem to imply that this is the case.

That's true, that birthparents are not all young, naive, or having their first child. But most birthmother I came in contact with during my support days were at least two of those things, if not all three.

Originally posted by Leatherette
I am just not sure what the point of the whole thread is. Is there some list of situations when it is okay to adopt and when it's not? What are the guidelines?

I believe that the purpose of adoption is to find families for children, not to find children for families. There is a crucial difference. I hate to see people waiting in line for a healthy white newborn when there are mixed race drug exposed babies languishing in foster care. I hate to see people adopting from China because *they* want an infant girl rather than adopting from Russia where the caregiver/child ratios can be as high as 80/1. It bothers me that many people don't give much thought to where their child is really *coming from*, the mother in China who is forced to give up her baby because it's a girl or because she's had too many children, the mother in Cambodia who can't feed her children and is offered money from her government in exchange for her baby.

People adopt what they can handle. A friend of mine adopted two year old twins from Russia who had severe disabilities. She's a special education therapist; she knew what she was getting into and knew she could handle it. What she did is *not* for most people. I think people should adopt the neediest kids they can without stretching themselves too far. This is my opinion. I'm not going to apoligize for it.

-Kate