(RE)educate me on CIO please..I am desperate

[chrstene]

I am a mother of two...my DD is 3. We coslept, bf, babywear, etc. She nursed to sleep and each time she woke up until my son was about born. She is a terrible sleeper. She weaned fine, but is still a terrible sleeper. She can't GO to sleep by herself, or STAY asleep by herself. My DH now has the job of putting her to sleep and its not always great. When she wakes in the middle of the night, she can't go back to sleep so she comes to get him (IF she is in her own room) and he has to go back and lay with her in her own little bed.

Then my DS was born. We are totally against CIO. My husband is even more against it than I am...he is great supporter of AP. My son is 14 months, and I think he was a better sleeper a few months ago then he is now. I feel like i have nurtured this awful sleeping habit...mostly because it's just "easier" to bring him in the bed with me at midnight and nurse him all night for the rest of the night (he sleeps the first few hours in his crib w/o nursing at every wakeup). He usually takes decent naps. But lately it is getting worse...if I even THINK of putting him down he starts screaming like crazy. He is fine if I keep holding and swaying. If he is in bed with me, he expects to just be on the breast ALLLLLLnight. I haven't slept in 3 years!

Soooo, last nt an AP friend of mine came over and told me " I felt like I was doing my son an injustice and he would never learn to sleep just like my daughter - so let him cry and he STTN now" I was between being disappointed and being jealous. He cried 1 or 2 nts and now he sleeps, is better rested and even eats better.

Can someone remind me why it is so bad again? is there middle ground somewhere? with my dd we tried NCCS and gordons weaning plan....both were so torturous that I felt it as no better than CIO anyway.

I am really on the fence here!

[K-Mom3]

I am always jealous when I hear about kids like that. I think if it were crying for 10 minutes, for 2 or 3 days, I would do it.

I actually tried CIO with my son and it totally didn't work like that! He cried FOREVER and when I went in later to get him straightened out, he was never sleeping soundly. It didn't matter if I waited 5 minutes, 20 minutes, 1 hr--he was always sleeping super lightly. Anyway, he hardly improved in 2 weeks and we gave up.

Then, a few years later we found out that he is on the Autism Spectrum. Kids with ASD often CAN'T sttn for a lot of years. So, we tortured him for nothing.

Does that help?

[lerlerler]

Remember, the goal is not for the BABY to STTN, the goal is for YOU to be well-rested (or fairly well-rested).

Yea, CIO WILL get you there. but at a price for both you and the baby.

Find the way to get some sleep... co-sleeping? Naps? Daddy takes them on SUndays?



And I GUARENTEE that he will outgrow this!!!
But if you need to put him down and walk away while your partner, friend, parent snuggles him? that's NOT CIO... that's sanity-preservartion!

[rzberrymom]

Since all kids respond differently, maybe try the Jay Gordon plan with him and see how it goes for a day or two? If he's not ready, he'll let you know and then maybe you could try again in a month or two.

That was the age when my DD's molars started coming in, she was in terrible pain, and I'm not sure she would have made it through nightweaning just then (that age was definitely our low point in terms of sleep). But, by 18 months she was ok with it.

[stik]

I think there is a middle ground.

It took my first dd forever to learn to sleep through the night. She didn't really get it until she was 5, and I was pregnant with our second, and we had some conversations (some of them very tense) about how she simply *could not* wake the house at 2:30 because she wanted another bedtime story. At that point, she was old enough to understand the limits.

By the time my second dd was born, we really valued evenings as couple-time, and we really wanted to preserve that time. Obviously, a tiny baby can't be left to cry. I don't think there's much point in trying to get babies to sleep through the night until they're night-weaned. Straight CIO doesn't work for me at any age - I've met (and probably given birth to) kids who *can* cry all night if you let them. So CIO just sounds like a one-way ticket to the gates of hell. But so does giving up our grown-up time.

With my second dd, we were careful to create a nighttime routine with a fixed duration. After bedtime, everything is really boring. She goes to bed with a couple binkies and a sippy cup of water so she has what she needs. We make sure she's tucked in and has her best stuffies. And after that, honestly, we're a little ruthless. We'll change a diaper if she needs it, and we keep a quiet eye on her to make sure any causes of distress are dealt with. And that's it. She had some rough nights at the beginning, but her needs were met, and now she sleeps. Mostly.

[Maluhia]

Read at the top of the forum, there are some great links and articles stickied.

CIO does not mean they will STTN nor will they be "better", "good" or "happy" and it is not an aboslute guarantee. In fact you'll cause your child irreperable harm both emotionally and physically for the sake of long-duration sleep which is just not natural for such a little person.

Heck, I don't STTN - I wake up and roll over, adjust blankets, use the restroom. I can't see why a small person with a smaller bladder and stomach could be expected to if I, with maturity and logic on my side, don't and can't naturally stay asleep with no waking of any kind for 8 or 10 or whatever someone else's magic number is.

[ewe+lamb]

This is hard for you - the decision is one that only you and your dh can take - there's all the information but really, do you need someone to tell you it all again? - you know it already.

This will pass, when - no one can tell, if you need the rest then see if your dh can take the kids out for a Sunday afternoon as suggested, for the nursing at night I found that saying that after the last nursing session at night then ds could come into bed with us but he can't nurse until my alarm goes off in the morning - then I have the choice of the time in the morning, during school days it's obviously earlier than the weekend and also if you don't use the 'when the sun comes up' thing then you're still choosing the timing. Don't know if this will help but maybe give you some more ideas at least - just to reassure you (don't know if it actually will!) but we put this into practice when ds was 3 at nearly 4.5 he stills needs us at night but understood that continuing to nurse all night just wasn't an option. There is a difference between CIO alone in your room and just needing the reassurance that someone is there to protect me from the scaries at night, but you don't have to nurse all night too, if it is affecting your sanity. Love and Limits is a great (short) book which may help you too - not about sleep but good about setting limits. Good luck!

[chrstene]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

Since all kids respond differently, maybe try the Jay Gordon plan with him and see how it goes for a day or two? If he's not ready, he'll let you know and then maybe you could try again in a month or two.

That was the age when my DD's molars started coming in, she was in terrible pain, and I'm not sure she would have made it through nightweaning just then (that age was definitely our low point in terms of sleep). But, by 18 months she was ok with it.

So true...I think I forgot they start coming in this early (my daughter was such a late teether)....He definitely has swollen gums, I checked today!


Read at the top of the forum, there are some great links and articles stickied.
YES, thank you for the reminder....I almost cried reading about their stress levels, etc when they cry.

[chrstene]

Originally Posted by stik

I think there is a middle ground.

It took my first dd forever to learn to sleep through the night. She didn't really get it until she was 5, and I was pregnant with our second, and we had some conversations (some of them very tense) about how she simply *could not* wake the house at 2:30 because she wanted another bedtime story. At that point, she was old enough to understand the limits.

By the time my second dd was born, we really valued evenings as couple-time, and we really wanted to preserve that time. Obviously, a tiny baby can't be left to cry. I don't think there's much point in trying to get babies to sleep through the night until they're night-weaned. Straight CIO doesn't work for me at any age - I've met (and probably given birth to) kids who *can* cry all night if you let them. So CIO just sounds like a one-way ticket to the gates of hell. But so does giving up our grown-up time.


With my second dd, we were careful to create a nighttime routine with a fixed duration. After bedtime, everything is really boring. She goes to bed with a couple binkies and a sippy cup of water so she has what she needs. We make sure she's tucked in and has her best stuffies. And after that, honestly, we're a little ruthless. We'll change a diaper if she needs it, and we keep a quiet eye on her to make sure any causes of distress are dealt with. And that's it. She had some rough nights at the beginning, but her needs were met, and now she sleeps. Mostly.

How old is your DD? How do you decide when to go into the room? Do you let her cry a few minutes? or have you made other criteria?

AND IS THERE A WAY TO QUOTE MORE THAN ONE RESPONSE AND NOT MAKE SO MANY SEPERATE REPLIES?????

[justKate]

Originally Posted by chrstene

AND IS THERE A WAY TO QUOTE MORE THAN ONE RESPONSE AND NOT MAKE SO MANY SEPERATE REPLIES?????

I think the only way to do it is to "copy" then hit the little quote button in the toolbar, then "paste" between the [ QUOTE ] and the [ /QUOTE ]. (You have to delete the spaces, I just added them in there so that you can read the formatting.)

Can someone remind me why it is so bad again? is there middle ground somewhere? with my dd we tried NCCS and gordons weaning plan....both were so torturous that I felt it as no better than CIO anyway.

I know where you're coming from.

I think its great that your LO sleeps in his crib for a few hours--I would love for DD (10 mos) to do this because sleeping alone in our bed in the evening is becoming a safety issue for us. Anyway.

Aside from the potential neurological and emotional damage that CIO can cause, it just won't work for some. DD would cry until she passed out or threw up. It's just her DNA.

The only thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is to just keep trying different things. I found that DD sleeps best when tightly swaddled with weight on her (weighted blanket or beanbag type thing)...I only tried these things out of desperation but now I'm thinking there may be signs of sensory issues. No real advice, just want you to know you're not suffering alone.

[Aletheia]

I just wanted to offer that "The Wonder Weeks," which is a pretty cool book, predicts that most children will have a fussy period in which it is difficult to sleep at 64 weeks past their gestational due date. That's right between 14 and 15 months.

It could be that your son is just working on a developmental leap in his cognitive abilities and that he is more in need of your reassurance. I remember learning about circles in geometry in high school and dreaming about them. I always think about that when I suspect my child is going through a "mind-blowing" leap in the way they think of the world. Circles aren't even that big of a deal. But what if you suddenly realized you were a separate entity and not attached to your mother or father?

Hang in there! These leaps are harder for sensitive kids, too.

[Cekimon]

I could have written your post almost word for word. I have DS who is 3.5yo and DD who is 19 months-ish.

I have one friend in paticular that is very pro-CIO but luckily most of my mommy friends are anti-CIO or somewhere in a happy medium place.

Recently DH and I have run into some major marital issues and one of the issues was the co sleeping arrangement. DH is a great dad and actually I think he has enjoyed co sleeping just as much as I have. He is super super close with DS and they seriously sleep sometimes with arms wrapped around each other. But it is what it is and in an effort to get more "marriage" time, the kids are being moved out of our bed.

Things have been going awful with my 3.5yo... but I'll tell you what I did with DD who is still bf'ing.

We have 2 bedroom house. The kids room has a queen bed. we have no crib or toddler bed in the house (well it's dismantled and stored under our king bed, lol).

I started out with DD on the sofa. I'd nurse her awhile and while she was still awake, I'd lay her down on a pillow, blanket, and hand her a stuffed animal. I would sit on the other end of the sofa. She would crawl to me and try to nurse (swatting at my chest) but I'd cover up with a blanket and say, "mimis gone" (mimi is milk). I'd then pick her up and lay her down and repeat and repeat and repeat. I don't think it ever took longer than 30 mins until she'd give up and fall asleep. Usually it'd be around 20 mins though.

Gradually (sometime within the first 7 days) I was able to lay her down on the couch (still awake after nursing) and then do some quiet busy work in the kitchen near by. She'd lay there only if I played TV for her (Thomas the train.) I did this for maybe another 5-7 days with her falling to sleep with the TV. I was very unhappy about using the TV but it was the only way I could think of to transition myself off the couch with her that would keep her from crying. So eventually she got better and better, but I was really not wanting the TV situation getting out of hand.

During all this, my son was being put to sleep in the kids room with DH laying down with him. DH falls asleep usually before DH does! Then I'd go in and get DH up to go to our own bed.

Anyhow, I came to the decision to bring my son out of his room and get DD to go to sleep in the bed and not on the sofa. Since there was no progress with DS, DD got promoted to the bed. The first night of putting her in the bed was easiest but the next few nights were a little rough but it was never bad. We got a fish tank in there so I'd tell her to look at the fish and then I'd edge my way away from the bed and stand by the fish tank a few mins and slowly creep out. It was good and now I've been putting her in the bed, she resists of course, but just fusses a few mins (sometimes less) and goes to sleep. It's SUPER easy now with her.

However..... I still have not found a solution with DS.

But my point is (sorry for so many details!!!) is that even though DD cried a lot in the beginning....the more she cried, I was close to her on the sofa. Her feet were always touching my body/resting on me. The less she cried, the more I tried to move away. This was important to me because I did not want for her to ever feel scared, lonely or abandoned. Even though I was not wanting to use the TV for the time that I did, I still felt it'd be better than a bottle or paci. I just felt tv would be the easiest thing to take away and thankfully it was a smooth transition.

Now I just need to figure out what to do with DS!!! Any idea?!?!??

[ssh]

The reason you don't do CIO is it goes against you instincts as a mom, it just doesn't 'feel' right. Mammals sleep with their young it's just how we evolved. When I'm not as good a mom to my DD as a possum or hyena is to their young, then I shouldn't have chosen to have children. Also CIO causes permanent neurological damage, making the child more at risk for adult stress related diseases. Here are two articles http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/li...n_palmer2.html and http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html .

I sympathize with your lack of sleep though. My DD's are 20 years apart so I've never had 2 LOs needing to co-sleep. My youngest weaned herself about a month before turning 4 and then a week after her birthday decided to sleep in her own bed with her cool nightnites. She had been sleeping a good 9 to 10 hours a night since a few months after turning 3. Your DS could be teething. My DD nursed ALL night long when her canines were coming in at about 14 months and then slept pretty good until her molars started. Have you thought about putting another bed next o yours for your DD? We still have a twin next to our queen, even though our DD has only used it twice in the last 2 months.

[stik]

I don't want to compare my parenting to hyenas or possums. I am not raising hyenas or possums. I am not a marsupial. Neither I nor my children rely on our ability to scavenge for carrion to survive.

Human parenting is not "Hyena Plus," it is something entirely different. I am especially grateful not to have to face the staggering maternal mortality rate for primaparas in hyena communities.

I don't CIO because it doesn't work. Pragmatically speaking, it would not get me any more sleep than what I did, which was to use verbal communication, family rituals, and planned predictable responses to my children's behavior to teach them that certain times are sleepy times. The OP's kids are 3 years and 14 months. They are old enough to get through the night without a ton of parental intervention, and they probably can be gently taught to do so. Not leaping from bed the moment a 14 month old squeaks does not make someone a worse parent than a hyena.

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by lerlerler

Remember, the goal is not for the BABY to STTN, the goal is for YOU to be well-rested (or fairly well-rested).

This is really important to remember. You aren't doing your child a disservice or harming him in anyway by helping him sleep the way you do. The CIO books are chock full of this bs. They prey on your desperation and your want to be a good mother. I've read so many CIO books, and they are very tempting. They tell you, "Why not do this if what you're already doing isn't working for you? How could it be any worse than what you're already going through?"

The truth is, it's not foolproof. Sure, I'm jealous when I hear that someone let their child CIO one night, and after 10 min they slept wonderfully for the rest of their lives. But I don't believe that is reality. I think that's luck.

[stik]

BabyCakes and lerlerler, I think that's a really important point about the PARENT getting enough sleep, rather than the child achieving the fantastic and mythical "milestone" of STTN.

Nighttime parenting is not a straight-up choice between CIO and parental sleep deprivation. Infant sleep patterns are much more diverse than "hooked to the boob all night" vs. "sleeps peacefully in own space for ten hours at a stretch." Exhaustion is not a necessary component of attached and gentle parenting.

You have to look at what's happening and what everyone needs, and make a plan to bridge the gap. I think what the OP points out really well is that the more tired and desperate parents get, the better solutions that aren't really in keeping with our values look. It's hard to be thoughtful and creative when we're worn out. What I'm trying to say is, if your kids are past infancy and you can't sleep at night, I think you do genuinely *need* to make some adjustments to your family sleep patterns. CIO is not the way. But you could:

- Leave the kids with dad and check into a motel for a weekend. Eat ice cream, watch chick flicks, and get two solid uninterrupted nights of sleep.
- Use an incentive system with an older child. I'm not usually a fan of rewards, but the $10 I spent on a Cinderella DVD for my then-3-yo has been an awesome investment.
- Try warmer jammies or a weighted blanket
- night wean or nurse outside the bed instead of in it. (Yes, getting up is a pain for mom, but it can really help to make the distinction between eating and sleeping)
- implement a bedtime routine with gradually decreasing stimulation and fixed duration. (My kids always stayed awake for a super-long time if they thought we would stay in the room until they fell asleep. If they knew we were staying for five minutes, they fell asleep at 4 minutes 55 seconds.)
- make sure post-bedtime parental contact is super-boring (my MIL likes to coo and sing to babies who wake up in the night. She is no longer permitted to have sleepovers in the kids' room when she visits, because that always ended badly. I prefer to change the diaper, do the boob/burp, and put the kid back down with as little noise as possible, even when co-sleeping with an infant.)
- have bedtime and wake-up time at the same time every day, even on weekends.
- If you have a naptime routine that works, use as many elements of that routine as possible at bedtime.
- Help children problem-solve their night-time issues as they become increasingly capable. It will be years before they can be completely independent, but you can point out options for self-soothing and meeting physical needs and encourage them to use those options.

[Kailey's mom]

For me, the reason that the CIO method "works" is the exact reason why I would never ever do that to my baby. With CIO, the baby learns in a few days that the parent is not going to meet their needs and gives up emotional security is a need too.