X Posted in Veg forum: Considering going back to eating meat...

[ihugtrees]

I became a vegetarian in 2007, as a New Years Resolution, but was very unhealthy. Finally, in 2008, I started modifying my diet, and then in September of this year, I became vegan. First of all, I am extremely burned out on the vegan diet to begin with, I will acknowledge that. It's impossible to eat out. I have great difficulty eating 'snacks' because when I'm hungry, like yogurt or granola, I don't want sweet stuff-I want a substantial meal with lots of protein--salty, savory. That is what I crave. Since I am breastfeeding, I'm hungry CONSTANTLY. I find myself putting off eating because I don't feel like cooking, but at one point, I was cooking three full meals a day, and snacking in between on whatever--that is the only point at which I felt satisfied as a vegan. But I'm sick of all that cooking--all that chopping, all the dishes I have to wash. I'd probably still have that if I went back to meat, though...

But when I started to think about it this week, I realized I actually have felt pretty horrible in general since going vegan. I expected to be exhausted as a new mom, but thought after my daughter (7 months) settled into more of a routine and slept more at night, I'd feel better. We cosleep and she wakes once, maybe twice at night to nurse, and I feel like I'm getting plenty of sleep. I get enough protein, and eat a ton of vegetables...usually start out my day with a green smoothie with flax oil...the only boxed food item I even eat is pasta and brown rice, or cous cous, quinoa, etc--still not a ton...the mainstay of every meal is protein and vegetables....I supplement with B12 (I had a serious deficiency at one point), and also take Vitamin D and a prenatal vitamin. I don't exercise a lot, not purposefully, but I'm active...I do a good deal of walking as well as babywearing, and baby lifting every day.

I have had issues with depression my entire life, which are no worse since being postpartum, until recently...which could hinge a lot on weight I can't lose, self esteem I can't bring up...but it doesn't help that I have NO energy, always feel exhausted, and my mind feels EXTREMELY foggy. I have so much trouble remembering things, concentrating on things..I forget what I am going to say or what I am doing 100 times a day and feel like an idiot. Diet has such a huge impact on my mental health, and I remember the time in my life when I felt the absolute best was in 2006, when a doctor told me I was borderline diabetic, and I needed to go on a high protein, low carb diet. I ate a ton of meat, and tons of vegetables, and almost no carbs (granted, no fruit either. Still plenty of dairy, fats, etc.) I remember feeling euphoric the entire time I ate that way, and my mind was so clear! I could actually THINK, versus now, where I feel like I have to go through a maze in my head to form even one complete thought. I also lost 25 lbs in 3 months.

The Paleo/primal diet I read about sounds so right to me, but I hate the idea of eating animals again. I hate the idea of the suffering of another being, and know I could never kill an animal myself, so I feel like a hypocrite. I also am unsure what impact grassfed, organic meat animals have on the environment, but that was the main reason I went vegan.

Has anyone else been through this?

[FairyRae]

If it's the ethics that is upsetting you, check out The Vegetarian Myth. I've heard it clears up a lot of misconceptions a/b how environmentally 'friendly' vegetarianism is... There is an awesome, detailed review of it on this blog I'd recommend checking out. From the post (italics are quoted from the actual book:

In the Moral Vegetarians chapter, the author addresses the moral issue of killing animals for our own food. She beautifully makes her case by cutting to the heart of the matter:

What separates me from vegetarians isn’t ethics or commitment. It’s information.

And while she was in her 20-year trek in the vegetarian wilderness, she shielded herself from information as most cultists do:

I was on the side of righteousness, and like any fundamentalist, I could only stay there by avoiding information.

She finally realized the truth about agriculture; she figured out that the amber waves of grain are as death dealing as any slaughterhouse.

And agriculture isn’t quite a war because the forests and wetlands and prairies, the rain, the soil, the air, can’t fight back. Agriculture is really more like ethnic cleansing, wiping out the indigenous dwellers so the invaders can take the land. It’s biotic cleansing, biocide. … It is not non-violent. It is not sustainable. And every bite of food is laden with death.

There is no place left for the buffalo to roam. There’s only corn, wheat, and soy. About the only animals that escaped the biotic cleansing of the agriculturalists are small animals like mice and rabbits, and billions of them are killed by the harvesting equipment every year. Unless you’re out there with a scythe, don’t forget to add them to the death toll of your vegetarian meal. They count, and they died for your dinner…

Soil, species, rivers. That’s the death in your food. Agriculture is carnivorous: what it eats is ecosystems, and it swallows them whole.

I think it would be a helpful book to read if the ethics are important to you...

Here are some threads on this topic, I think more from a health standpoint:

ex-veg*ns: how did you know it was time to switch to TF?
Vegetarian considering bone broth--is it worth it?
arrrrrrrr...so confused!!!!! opinions please
Converts to TF/organic/Vegan/Vegetarian...how?
To those of you who were vegetarian before choosing TF...

As a former vegetarian (12 years, then 6 months vegan due to food intolerance issues) I can tell you that I've NEVER felt better than I do now eating a grain free, paleo-esque diet (lots of meat and veggies, fruit and nuts, and lots of good fats. I do also eat tubers regularly [not paleo] and soaked or sprouted beans once in a while). Eating meat and animal superfoods like clo, liver and bone broth has made such a postitive impact on my health and my son's health, I don't see myself ever returning to a vegetarian lifestyle. Reading, learning, and actually believeing that humans are MADE to eat meat, that it is biologically optimal for us to eat it (if not necessary to our health and well being) really helped me jump in and not look back. Trying to buy from ethical sources, like a local grassfed farmer and eggs from pastured chickens makes me feel better about my decision to eat meat as well...

Good luck figuring out what works best for you!

[sweetjasmine]

I so understand! I was vegetarian, then vegan a few years ago. One reason was because of the animals as you said. But I found that I missed the taste of meat, missed how good I felt when I ate animal protein and dairy. I am still conflicted about the animals but I tell myself that nearly all cultures going back to the beginning of humankind and up to the present day eat some form of animal. I think its just the natural way of things. I was buying my meat at Whole Foods so that I could at least feel good about how the animals were raised and treated as opposed to the factory farmed, supermarket variety. I purchase at both places though because I need to watch my grocery bill. Unfortunately, its not an ideal world we live in (was it ever?) and we just do what we have to, what we need to.

[craft_media_hero]

Well, I'm a very laissez-faire vegetarian these days. I'm going on three years of some form of veg*nism. My dd and I were vegan for about 18 mo. I'll admit, I eat seafood when I crave it. I figure, if my body's craving it, then there must be a reason.

I've considered going back to meat for health/convenience reasons, but honestly just don't think I could chew and swallow a steak or chicken these days. I think that non-veg*n folk may not be able to understand that it is really difficult to think of meat as food or as something that you can put in your body. It is like a belief system, in a way. Meat is prohibited for me, like alcohol is prohibited for Muslims, yes it's my choice, but I just CAN'T do it. I CAN'T. It's not about being a PITA or better than others---you're vegetarian. It's okay.

From what you're saying, I would suggest going back to lacto-ovo. That way if you're having a savory protein craving, you can make a quick quesadilla, one pan, one plate (or a paper towel or just eat it out of the pan, lol), or an egg sammich/omelet, etc. Quick, easy protein. Try not to guilt yourself about it too much.

Lacto-ovo is just way easier for me, and I don't worry about my diet as much. When I was vegan I obsessed over getting enough protein, calcium, b12, etc. Nowadays I don't even think twice, I just eat whatever I want and try to remember to take my vitamins.

You also may find that the occasional salmon filet, shellfish, or sushi roll will boost your energy/mood without the ewww meat factor as much. I started out on the seafood slippery slope by going out for sushi with friends. I got tired of just having a tofu or avocado roll. I honestly had to make myself pretty much swallow the fish rolls whole at first! So now I'm a sushi-tarian. Eggs and cheese and whole yogurt came back in my diet when my dp moved in with us---that was our compromise for a meaty man to feel satisfied eating a veg diet 90% of the time. And I'm really glad that he counter-balanced me. Vegan was hard for me to keep on weight, and I had to be very regimented about what we ate all the time.

I feel like cooking and eating is waaaay easier now. Vegan took a lot of meal planning and specialty food items, long cooking times, etc. I think veganism is admirable, and if I lived by myself I'd probably drift back that way. But just straightforward vegetarianism is more practical for me and my family.

Oh, btw, are you cooking your beans all the time? If so, I would say for your convenience, just buy canned organic legumes. It makes cooking way faster. I'm less apt to put off making a meal if I know the beans are ready to go and I just need to figure out a whole grain/veg side. Ditto w/ grains you have to cook--make a giant pot, let it cool, then split it up and freeze it.

Sorry this got so long! Just wanted to give you some encouragement that it doesn't have to be all or nothing--maybe lacto-ovo could be the middle road for now.

[ambereva]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

If it's the ethics that is upsetting you, check out The Vegetarian Myth.

To be fair, this article assumes that all vegetarians eat a diet heavy in industrial farmed grain and soy products. Which is about as fair as assuming all TFers eat a diet heavy in factory farmed meat. Both methods of producing food are dreadfully unhealthy and destructive, but I don't eat any more industrially farmed grain and soy than (I assume) you eat factory farmed meat. Not ALL vegetarians are uninformed.

[FairyRae]

To be fair, this article assumes that all vegetarians eat a diet heavy in industrial farmed grain and soy products. Which is about as fair as assuming all TFers eat a diet heavy in factory farmed meat. Both methods of producing food are dreadfully unhealthy and destructive, but I don't eat any more industrially farmed grain and soy than (I assume) you eat factory farmed meat. Not ALL vegetarians are uninformed.

Thanks for pointing this out. I do agree w/ you on this!! I actually was going to make a comment about him using the word 'cult' as well in my original post (as I don't think that's a helpful word to use) but just left the passage as is...

I do think the *book* might be very helpful to a vegetarian (even an 'informed' one ) who is considering eating meat for many reasons--the article/review I posted itself (and blog author) may be a bit harsher on vegetarianism in general than the actual book, which I have not read but have heard great things about...

But I do think the passage is applicable here, as MANY vegetarians rely on processed soy products as a staple in their diets--I realize not all do, but many US vegetarians do. (I was one of them...) And I've known many vegetarians who feel they are doing it for ethical reasons who are not aware of these kind of issues.

[SpunkyMama]

Don't forget about the fact that most of the corn, soy, and grains grown goes toward feed for Confined Animal Feeding Operations. If people didn't eat so much meat then a lot of those fields would not have to be grown - thus saving many mice, rabbits, and a good part of the eco-system. The amount of these foods that vegetarians consume is minimal compared to CAFO systems.

I agree with craft media hero - that you don't have to do all or nothing. It sounds like it would be worth it for you to try the lacto-ovo vegetarian diet for awhile. If possible source your animal products from a local farmer you trust. Even if you buy from Whole Foods you don't necessarily know that the animals have good lives. For instance, "free range" chickens aren't always so free range. Lawyers have craftily come up with the term "access" to the outdoors. Oftentimes this only means there is one tiny door in the hen house where the chickens could go out of if it weren't for the fact that it is always closed or there are so many of them in the hen house that they do not see the door. I digress though....

I would suggest a lacto-ovo veg diet for awhile. If you still don't feel up to par then you can reevaluate things.

[ParisApril]

I was a ethical veg for 2 years. I was having big problems with how factory farmed animals are raised and butchered and that meat and dairy are not healthy so we stopped eating meat, and dairy for a bit.

Then DS had lots of cavities 8 and had to have dental surgery. I was having problems with my ankles. One year a broken ankle bone and the next a really bad sprain. Was it related to a veg diet who knows for sure. We ate a really well balanced veg diet lots of vegtables and beans.

My body was craving meat; and the voice kept getting louder and louder in my head. So now the kids and I (DH is still veg) eat a small 4oz portion of meat 1 x a day on average. My body feels so much better for it.

I was lucky enough to find a farm where they treat the animals well they have a good quality of life and are milked (calves get to stay with their mama's and nurse when they want), chickens are free range eating bugs and sprouts and they are buthered in a way that I am comfortable with.

A few years back I tried out the blood type diet and felt great. I am an O+ so it was a low carb, high meat intake. I had so much energy. Diabeties run in the family and hypoglycemia as well.

Enough rambling, I hope some of that helps you.

[FairyRae]

You mentioned being interested in paleo eating--you could also do a vegetarian slant on paleo. Here is a woman who eats an *almost* vegetarian/paleo diet--she also eats fish...(Scroll down to see sample menus.) I agree w/ others--it does not have to be all or nothing!

Don't forget about the fact that most of the corn, soy, and grains grown goes toward feed for Confined Animal Feeding Operations. If people didn't eat so much meat then a lot of those fields would not have to be grown - thus saving many mice, rabbits, and a good part of the eco-system. The amount of these foods that vegetarians consume is minimal compared to CAFO systems.

This is why I think it's awesome that the TF way of eating so greatly stresses eating locally farmed, pastured/grass-fed meat, and NOT CAFO meat. We each do what we choose to do when it comes to this based on budget, etc, but I think that is a core aspect of being TF. I also think that in The Vegetarian Myth, she discusses the importance for all to move towards eaten locally produced foods (both animal and vegetable ones ) for sustainability and ethics, etc.

[mbravebird]

I can only address one thing -- that pastured animals are often raised on land that could not otherwise be used for agriculture: rocky slopes, etc. And they're not fed farmed foods, so they don't use up those resources. Environmentally, pastured animals are very low impact. Especially when they're raised in concert with other animals (chickens who follow the cows on pasture, thriving on the bugs that come to the cow poop, and scratching to help decompose the cow poop). As a natural system, it works pretty harmoniously.

I think the first part of this post addresses some of your environmental concerns in more detail.

I was a vegetarian many years ago, and guiltily ate chicken after that because I craved it. Then, almost four years ago, I discovered local traditional foods, and my health has changed radically for the better since then. I had to learn to cook ground beef because I hadn't ever done it before! Liver really made a difference for me, health-wise. The farmers who raise our animals used to be vegetarians, and they are very good to their animals.

It certainly can only be up to you. I am not at all zealous about what other people eat. But it does sound like something is not working for you right now, and so I guess I'd just say that there is absolutely no harm in experimenting. You can always go back, and if you do go back it will be a decision informed by your experience. There's nothing wrong with that. Go gently with yourself, and see what feels best if you take some of the pressure off.

[Laniemama]

I would recommend reading "Real Food for Mother and Baby" by Nina Planck, as a great intro to eating meat and real foods for a nursing mother. It is a great easy read and the statistics in it sold me on TF. I don't remember the actual statistics, but as for fat, vegan diets have around 0% in them. Good fats and cholesterol are needed to help grow baby brains. Good luck!

[Panserbjorne]

Pardon my scattered thoughts. This is just my personal experience.

Yup, I was vegan. I wasn't doing well after the first few years. I was grain free/sugar free as well, so it can't be blamed on that! I ate a very healthful plant based diet but was not thriving. Some things were good, but my intestinal health was a mess. I had been diagnosed with an inflammatory bowel disease and thought I was taking all the steps I needed to heal. A mama here actually pointed out that I may need to add meat and reduce fiber to heal.

I was at the end of my rope, though I was better than I *had* been. So many things had improved since eating live food and eliminating grains and sugar. Anyway, what this mama said made sense. I decided to change how I was eating and add meat back in. It wasn't quite as easy as all that...but
I also had the weird benefit of having had a stint of eating meat on the SCD because EBF dd was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and multiple allergies. That diet made me feel better than anything else I had ever done. I had basically perfect health. However because of the ethical dilemma I then cut meat again for a few more years.

My health declined slowly, so I didn't really notice that my digestive issues were as bad as they were again until one day it was like, "what the heck? I was doing so much better! What happened?" I was also much more irritable. In retrospect it was clear. What happened was that I eliminated meat and went back to a higher fiber, plant based diet (though still grain free.) Slowly my gut was returning to an unhappy state. It made sense to go back to eating meat, but remaining grain and sugar free. I did, and my health is back to where it should be. I feel excellent and have no more digestive symptoms.

Anyway, it doesn't have to be all or nothing and the only accurate measure is how YOU feel while doing it. Give it a few weeks to adjust, but beyond that you should be pretty clear that either you feel better, or you don't.

In my case, I wasn't happy about the ethics. However the reality was that I wasn't prepared to suffer or have my kids suffer once I realized that meat made such a major difference in our lives. Eggs just don't do the same thing as meat. Another factor here is that dd has extremely low cholesterol she needed a dietary source, as well as a calorie and nutrient dense diet that was easier for her to process as she was healing. She had also declined on a vegan diet. She is back to a high fat, moderate protein diet that includes meat daily and is once again thriving...this time is wonderful ways. Given where we have come from and what I have seen in my family I cant' see cutting it out again.

So there it is. We are meat eaters and I have come to terms with that.

[wholewheatchick]

Originally Posted by mbravebird

I can only address one thing -- that pastured animals are often raised on land that could not otherwise be used for agriculture: rocky slopes, etc. And they're not fed farmed foods, so they don't use up those resources. Environmentally, pastured animals are very low impact. Especially when they're raised in concert with other animals (chickens who follow the cows on pasture, thriving on the bugs that come to the cow poop, and scratching to help decompose the cow poop). As a natural system, it works pretty harmoniously.

I just started eating meat again about a month ago, after adding in more fat (I was eating a VERY low fat, mostly vegan, diet). I will admit that I enjoy eating the dairy and eggs more than the meat at this point, but it is so nice to have more options! I completely cut out soy, which left me with beans, which my body still does not handle well after being veg for years.

I think that everyone could be vegetarian and live, in this day and age. However, I do not think that everyone can be vegetarian and thrive. And I am one of the latter. I have a lot more endurance, I'm not so exhausted all the time, I'm not starving all the time, my complexion has cleared up a bit, and I sincerely enjoy eating again.

I was mostly veg for the perceived health benefits and environmental reasons, but also some animal treatment, too. Well, I figured out that veg wasn't the healthiest diet for me. And as mbravebird said above, I no longer see local, sustainable, "happy meat" as a detriment to the environment. I will only eat meat from the farmer's market. For all intents and purposes, everyone who knows me (outside of family) thinks that I am still vegetarian. I cannot justify eating non-happy meat, because it is not healthy for you (all the fats and ratios are mixed up, plus hormones, etc.); CAFO meat is horrendous for the environment; and it isn't nice to the animals.

I also recommend the book Full Moon Feast by Jessica Prentice.

Good luck in your decision!