Is it okay for kids to sing on the train? - Page 5

[babygrace]

Originally Posted by limabean

I don't really see how this relates to the OP. She said her friends were encouraging their kids to sing loudly and often. Teaching your kids polite behavior does not equal expecting them to be little emotionless robots. Are we not supposed to even mention to them that considering others' comfort in enclosed spaces is polite? I don't see how a parent who says, "Let's save the loud singing for when we get off the train -- some people are trying to study" is rigid and uncompromising.

Originally Posted by journeymom

You've got to be kidding.
What surprises me is that some people's minds are so rigid and uncompromising that they insist that their way of experiencing and interacting with the rest of the world is the only right way. That if they think it's fine for a parent to encourage their children to sing loudly in a crowded, enclosed space, then that should be OK with everyone else.

Becoming an adult has shown me the real meaning of compassion and tolerance for complete strangers on a train for who may not at all consider trivial the same things I do.

in order to save folks the time and effort of posting a response and to avoid misinterpretations, i started my previous post thus:

Originally Posted by babygrace

as a preface, what i have to say excludes the obviously obnoxious examples we have all seen sometime or the other.

HTH.

[lotusdebi]

Originally Posted by MamaMelis

I think that there is a big difference in what you are reading and what people are saying.

No one here is saying that they "hate" children who are noisy, or the parents of such children.

The only divide I see is between those who say that they try to encourage appropriate behavior, and those who seem to feel as though doing so is killing a child's spirit.

I think there's a big difference in what you're reading and what people are saying. I don't see the divide that you see. We're looking at this discussion from different perspectives, and thus see different things.

Originally Posted by MamaMelis

We are all mothers, I'm quite sure that we ALL have or have had those moments where our children are difficult.

Some of us have difficult or challenging children.
Some of us have children who are going through difficult/ challenging periods.
Some of us have children who are occasionally difficult.

My children are in the first two categories. I currently have two children who are occasionally easy. They're mostly difficult. One of my children is challenging because of his personality and/or as a symptom of his diagnoses. So, again, I'm coming from a different perspective than, possibly, the majority of people on this thread. Oh, and my son with autism? He doesn't have a label flashing on his forehead, so most people assume that he's an ill-mannered brat and that I'm to blame for that. Try living with that kind of near-constant judgment for years. And then try getting much of that judgment from other parents who look smug about their own children not acting in such a manner. And try dealing with their comments. Then try doing it before you get a clear diagnosis. And maybe you'll understand why I will always be quick to defend the child and the parents. I assume that any child who is behaving in a way that much of society chooses to deem "inappropriate" has an invisible disability that effects his/her behavior, and the parents are emotionally and/or physically exhausted. Any urge to cruelly judge those people is stopped in its tracks. I wish more people would employ this trick.

Originally Posted by MamaMelis

The OP Was about ENCOURAGING loudly inappropriate behavior, not about what perfect parents anyone is. Some feel that encouraging good behavior is simply a better option ~ some seem to rely a lot more on the "kids will be kids regardless" sort of idea. Neither one is necessarily all right or all wrong, to me anyway.

First, I don't agree that singing loudly on a train, or encouraging loud singing on a train, is inappropriate. I think that singing on a train is perfectly acceptable behavior. I don't have any problem with it. I especially don't have a problem with it when children are doing the singing. When adults are doing the singing, I might get annoyed if they're off-key or screw up the lyrics, or are belting out lyrics that I find offensive. Otherwise, why should I care? I hope they're singing because they're happy. I'm sorry if they're singing due to sadness or anger, but singing out those emotions is much healthier than a number of other ways that members of our repressed society deal with them.

Also, I don't think that there's a difference between encouraging good behavior and allowing kids to be kids. You can do both. I do both, day after day after day. I have a problem with adults trying to force children to act like adults. I don't think that those expectations are developmentally appropriate, even if there are some children who meet them (IMO, as a matter of personality).

Originally Posted by MamaMelis

From the tone of your post I gather that you have had some very trying times with your kids, and I am sorry that you feel so defensive about it.

I have had trying times that you can only imagine. Additionally, I was reading in Brain,Child this morning about families getting kicked off of planes and such because the kids were being... kids. And I was reading a few days ago about the school-to-prison pipeline. There are major problems in our society about the ways we treat children, and the expectations we have of them. We have the science to show the differences in children's brains and adult's brains. We know that kids are not capable of the same things that adults are - whether we're talking about behaviors or understanding consequences or considering the needs of others. As parents, we teach. But, we shouldn't try to force them to be something they're not. And, as a society, we should be much more tolerant and understanding of kids being kids - in fact, we should welcome it. We determine what's acceptable in society, and we can change our minds about that at any time. I consider the United States to be a very anti-child place to live. I am determined to change that. So, yes, I will be defensive. I will defend children. They deserve it.

Originally Posted by MamaMelis

I don't really think that anyone here was trying to pat themselves on the back ~ it is natural that we all have different feelings regarding how children should behave in certain scenarios (restaurants, trains, other peoples homes etc) ~ just because someone has different goals or methods or kids or hopes from you does not necessarily mean that they are judging you, you know?

Often times it does. Very, very often. There are multiple threads on this forum every week about how some child or some parent was acting in some unspeakably horrible manner. Judgment judgment judgment. I'm not saying that I haven't fallen into the same trap. I am saying that I try not to fall again. There are better ways than judging others as being inferior parents or ill-behaved kids. I'd like to see more support, tolerance, patience, understanding, and compassion. I'm not about to expect mature behavior from my children when I can't find it in most adults.

[honey-lilac]

I agree with lotusdebi. My son is also on the spectrum and it is torture, torture to take him out in public. (Not to mention his sister is now in her terrible two's and copies his demeanor as well in everything.) I *am* the mother who is constantly "shh"-ing and "please just sit DOWN and please just sit STILL" - and I've become a near recluse because of the incredible amount of judgment I get, constantly. I try to grow a thick skin but it's hard to enjoy things when you have the choice of staying at home or enduring stares and comments the whole time you're out. A simple chore like a trip to the post office is near torture. I refuse to get on a plane with my kids. We did once out of necessity and my son literally screamed the entire flight - bloody-murder, high pitched screaming for hours. Nothing we could do to stop it. NOTHING. Oh, the glares we got.

My mom used to take pride that I was so well behaved that she could take me anywhere, people would compliment how well mannered I was, etc. She positively gloated about how good of a mother she was and how bad of a mother everyone else was who had a child who wasn't like me. Then I had my son and she had a near breakdown when she realized, oh, it's up to personality, really! It's up to the kid! Parents can and do need to influence their children, and everyone needs to learn manners, of course. But the child's personality will be a huge influence. Huge.

Also, for the PP who said that she'd rather see a parent disciplining a fussy child rather than to let the child "behave badly" - may you never find out what it's like to have a child on the spectrum. Seriously. A tantrum for a normal kid is one thing, a complete meltdown of an autistic child is a completely different thing. Obviously you have not experienced that. And as far as a child behaving "badly" - good God, that's the sort of judgment I get every day I try to leave my house. I like those shirts and stickers they sell that say, in big letters, "I'm Autistic, please be patient with me" or "I'm not a brat, just autistic" or whatever.

[lotusdebi]

Kaleanani
My younger son (almost 3) is also copying his older brother's behaviors, attitudes, tantrums, etc. So frustrating! I also decided against ever flying with my kids - especially after reading so many reports of kids with autism being kicked off.
I'm sorry for what you go through, and I feel your frustration and pain.

[Stephenie]

My son has Sensory Processing Disorder and taking him on a train would be hell. If singing would keep him from completely losing it, by God I would sing. And if people knew the alternative for him, I think they would (should) appreciate it. He both seeks and fears sensory input, ,so one day the train may just scare him so badly that he screams the whole time, while the next day I would not be able to keep him from running around, crashing into things. Couple that with the fact that I would also have a nine month old with me and chasing him would be hard... singing is the least he could be doing. Like an Autistic child, he looks "normal." No one can tell by looking at him that his brain works differently than most. And even talking to him, once again, he sounds "normal"... he even talks better than most kids his age. I get a lot of dirty looks and I get really darn sick of it. It's hard and I am doing my best. That is what I try to assume with other parents. Even when kids are not special needs, they all have their days... and so do parents.

So while I personally try to avoid places like the train when I can, if I had to be there and it kept him still or from having a meltdown that increased as the ride went on, then I would have no problem singing, clapping, playing, hula dancing... whatever. It's really in everyone's best interest and I could care less if someone near by thought I should discipline the personality out of my child. They have no clue what I'm dealing with. And even when I tell them most people have no clue what Sensory Processing Disorder is and I've had people roll their eyes at me. Fun.

Anyway, I think as a society we need to relax a bit and realize that sometimes when we have to share space it does not go the way we'd like (IE quietly) and that if we try to be kind and understanding there would be more community and less animosity.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by Stephenie

My son has Sensory Processing Disorder and taking him on a train would be hell. If singing would keep him from completely losing it, by God I would sing. And if people knew the alternative for him, I think they would (should) appreciate it. He both seeks and fears sensory input, ,so one day the train may just scare him so badly that he screams the whole time, while the next day I would not be able to keep him from running around, crashing into things. Couple that with the fact that I would also have a nine month old with me and chasing him would be hard... singing is the least he could be doing. Like an Autistic child, he looks "normal." No one can tell by looking at him that his brain works differently than most. And even talking to him, once again, he sounds "normal"... he even talks better than most kids his age. I get a lot of dirty looks and I get really darn sick of it. It's hard and I am doing my best. That is what I try to assume with other parents. Even when kids are not special needs, they all have their days... and so do parents.

So while I personally try to avoid places like the train when I can, if I had to be there and it kept him still or from having a meltdown that increased as the ride went on, then I would have no problem singing, clapping, playing, hula dancing... whatever. It's really in everyone's best interest and I could care less if someone near by thought I should discipline the personality out of my child. They have no clue what I'm dealing with. And even when I tell them most people have no clue what Sensory Processing Disorder is and I've had people roll their eyes at me. Fun.

Anyway, I think as a society we need to relax a bit and realize that sometimes when we have to share space it does not go the way we'd like (IE quietly) and that if we try to be kind and understanding there would be more community and less animosity.

Completely agree.

[loraxc]

I assume that any child who is behaving in a way that much of society chooses to deem "inappropriate" has an invisible disability that effects his/her behavior, and the parents are emotionally and/or physically exhausted. Any urge to cruelly judge those people is stopped in its tracks. I wish more people would employ this trick.

I have one difficult child (may or may not diagnosable with one thing or another) and one easy one. Fortunately (IMO) I had the hard one first. I have certainly learned a lot from having her.

Having had the second, I see, too, why parents of easier kids don't really get it. But that's not really an excuse.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by JL83

I believe (from what I've read elsewhere) that most people would rather see you attempt to teach your son proper behavior and listen to the aftermath (tantrum) than have to endure you allowing your son to behave badly by singing on the train.

Disciplining a child based on what others would like to see is a narrow-minded, "cookie-cutter" approach to what is a constantly changing dynamic. Most discipline situations with children do not fit neatly into a formula. What is best for the child vs what is best for the family vs what is best for society is a delicate balance that varies depending on the situation and individual(s) involved.

[MamaMelis]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

And maybe you'll understand why I will always be quick to defend the child and the parents. I assume that any child who is behaving in a way that much of society chooses to deem "inappropriate" has an invisible disability that effects his/her behavior, and the parents are emotionally and/or physically exhausted. Any urge to cruelly judge those people is stopped in its tracks. I wish more people would employ this trick.


.

Oh I understand it, I just think that it is different from what the OP was talking about.

The truth is, not all children who are difficult or unruly are special needs kids. Some just have lousy parents. Clearly you are not one of them, so I guess while your passion is marvelous, it simply does not apply to all kids, in all situations. You seem to have really personalized this question, when I think that the (general) question is much larger than just you, your child, and their specific set of needs and/or behavioral issues.

Some parents of kids who CAN behave in an appropriate manner, should encourage them more to do so. But like you said, we all have different ideas of what "appropriate" is. YOu find loud singing on a train appropriate, I don't. Neither feeling ought open either one of us up for judgement, in my opinion. Statements like this:

I have had trying times that you can only imagine.

When you know nothing about the person to whom you are speaking, probably don't serve to warm people to your opinion or situation. It feels pretty assumptive to me....and almost the direct opposite of this statement:

I'd like to see more support, tolerance, patience, understanding, and compassion. I'm not about to expect mature behavior from my children when I can't find it in most adults.

which I happen to wholeheartedly agree with.

[lotusdebi]

Originally Posted by MamaMelis

The truth is, not all children who are difficult or unruly are special needs kids. Some just have lousy parents. Clearly you are not one of them, so I guess while your passion is marvelous, it simply does not apply to all kids, in all situations. You seem to have really personalized this question, when I think that the (general) question is much larger than just you, your child, and their specific set of needs and/or behavioral issues.

Some parents of kids who CAN behave in an appropriate manner, should encourage them more to do so. But like you said, we all have different ideas of what "appropriate" is. YOu find loud singing on a train appropriate, I don't. Neither feeling ought open either one of us up for judgement, in my opinion. Statements like this:



When you know nothing about the person to whom you are speaking, probably don't serve to warm people to your opinion or situation. It feels pretty assumptive to me....and almost the direct opposite of this statement:



which I happen to wholeheartedly agree with.

Well I can guarantee that you haven't experienced the difficult times that I have experienced. It's next to impossible to duplicate those conditions. And I disagree that it's the opposite of the other statement. In fact, I think they're complimentary. You can't imagine what I've been through. My experiences are inseparable from me. I will process x differently than you will process x because I am a different person with a different mental and physical makeup and a different lifetime set of experiences than you are. Everything that I go through is filtered through that which is ME. And my experiences include all of that. There is no experience separate from that which experiences it. Perhaps too much philosophy there...
How's this - my difficult times are mine alone and no one else's because they include that which make up me - the way I process those difficulties, the ways I cope with them, my actions and reactions - as well as my environment and other environmental factors (like other people, experiences, etc.) So, I stand by my statement.

And, if we all considered that other people are experiencing various things through the filters of their own past experiences, mental processes, environmental conditions, and so forth, instead of believing that they have had identical experiences to our own and thus should act/ react in the ways that we believe we would act/ react, then we would be able to feel more patience, understanding, compassion, etc.

I have had trying times that you can only imagine. So, start imagining. Take a look at me with my child who isn't following directions, won't stop touching everything, won't sit still, is being loud and annoying and repeating words and the laughing, and is trying to get out of my grasp so he can run around and throw things. You can judge me as a bad mother and my child as a brat. Or you can realize that you don't know my situation. Would it make you feel better to glare at me? Or to smile at me? To mutter about unruly children and their useless parents? Or to ask if there's anything you can do to help?

Not all kids have special needs. Not all parents have special needs. Some kids are lousy. Some parents are lousy. Some kids are just having a tough time. Some parents are just having a tough time. I am very aware that the question is larger than my specific circumstances. Are you aware that it's larger than yours? If I am a lousy parent with a lousy child, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to change that? Is there anything that you can do? Do you think that sitting in judgment changes that situation at all? Do you honestly believe that a comment about my uselessness as a parent is going to magically transform me into a better parent? Do you think that dissing me to others on an internet forum would make my child behave in a more appropriate manner?

Me talking about my special needs child wasn't about me trying to say that all situations are like mine. It was about me trying to show that you can't tell when they're not. If I didn't know that my child had special needs until he was older, then even your closest friends may have children with special needs that none of you are aware of. Certainly it's possible that the unruly kids you see in public have special needs. Maybe they're diagnosed, maybe not. Maybe their parents are trying to parent them but haven't figured out how to effectively discipline them yet (it's not as easy as you might think.) Or maybe those unruly kids don't have special needs. Maybe they're just brats and their parents are useless. Or maybe everyone's tired and emotionally drained because of a recent loss - death, divorce, etc. You're on the outside, deciding what's on the inside, but you can't see. So, does it serve anyone to decide that what you see is what you get, and it's just that simple? Does it help anyone to sit in judgment? Or would it be more helpful to decide that you don't know the whole story, you probably will never know the whole story, and even if it's a matter of the whole family being spoiled brats, it won't do any good to be hurtful or cruel or judgmental about it?

I don't feel good when I'm judging people as less worthy than I. And that's what it comes down to - judging them as bad parents or bad kids because they're not meeting my superior expectations of parents and kids. I don't want to feel superior. I feel much better when I'm supportive, caring, understanding, patient, tolerant. I feel better when I offer help, or even just a smile. I know that, when I'm expecting a roomful of people to glare at me because of my child's behavior or me losing my temper, I feel more tense and more upset. And when I look up to see a smile, an understanding look, or get an offer of help or commiseration, I'm more able to calm down and try again to deal with the situation.
Sometimes, it takes someone thinking, "This could be a special needs child, so I shouldn't judge" in order to stop that automatic judgment. So, I share my story. Maybe people will practice not judging, and instead being supportive, because they get into the habit of assuming special needs or bad day or whatever instead of assuming brat or bad parents. If that's what it takes, so be it. For others, it will only take consideration of the fact that judging others as being "less than" doesn't help make the world a better place. Do something that does.

[MamaMelis]

Again, you are making this all about you. I am sorry that you have had awful experiences. But this OP is about how we would expect OUR children to behave. That does not mean that because I know that my kids can and do behave on a train (like happy children, full of spirit, but who don't have any need to sing loudly in a confined space) , so my expectations would be in line with my knowledge of MY kids. My sense of appropriate or my basis for choosing what expectations I have are based solely on my kids. As yours are.

If my kids had different needs, I would surely have different expectations.

I don't spend much time worrying about other peoples kids. I know enough to know that I have no idea what is going on with another child or parent or situation, and honestly I generally don't care very much. If I am annoyed by loud children (and yes, often in confined spaces MANY things can annoy me ~ not just children) I move. I don't waste a ton of time glaring, judging, hating, or whatever else you presume about parents of non special needs kids. I was replying to this post talking about what I assume or expect for/from my kids. You seem to be replying based on what you *think* "people" assume or expect for/from your kids.

Anyway, I am sure we could continue to go round and round. I just hope you understand that just because some people have kids who CAN behave, does not mean that they automatically judge those who CAN'T. My heart goes out to any child or parent in any hard situation ~ whether it is a one off thing, or a daily hardship. Like I posted earlier, we are all Mothers ~ to one degree or another we have all had those moments. Some more, some less frequently ~ But having them more frequently does not mean that judging all the others is fair or right.

Thank you for taking the time to try to explain your situation/children to me. I am very sorry that you have had so many trying times. Of COURSE this is true:

Well I can guarantee that you haven't experienced the difficult times that I have experienced. It's next to impossible to duplicate those conditions. And I disagree that it's the opposite of the other statement. In fact, I think they're complimentary. You can't imagine what I've been through. My experiences are inseparable from me. I will process x differently than you will process x because I am a different person with a different mental and physical makeup and a different lifetime set of experiences than you are. Everything that I go through is filtered through that which is ME. And my experiences include all of that. There is no experience separate from that which experiences it. Perhaps too much philosophy there...
How's this - my difficult times are mine alone and no one else's because they include that which make up me - the way I process those difficulties, the ways I cope with them, my actions and reactions - as well as my environment and other environmental factors (like other people, experiences, etc.) So, I stand by my statement.

, that is called life. And I guarantee that while you MAY have experienced judgement, hatred, intolerance, or mean looks from people on a train, none of them have been from me. So while I suppose any one of us could at any time say to any other of us "I have had trying times that you can only imagine" ~ it will always be true, and I am sure you can see how it might often times be considered assumptive, if only for how unnecessary it is..... I think that to a degree we can stipulate that truth in all interactions, when used in a general philosophical way as you seem to be. The whole "walk a mile in my shoes" and whatnot.

I worry about my kids. Only my kids, in situations pertaining to my kids. Probably almost to a fault. The idea that everyone who has DIFFERENT (not better) ideas of proper behavior for THEIR kids either kills the joy out of them, or is hateful and intolerant to OTHER children, simply made me bristle. I do apologize if I am not doing a good job of getting my point across. It just seems as judgmental to assume that because I have different (NOT better, just different) standards for my kids that I hate yours, or judge you, or anything else. Can't you be as open minded about my kids capabilities as you ask me to be about your kids special needs? It only seems fair. Not all easy kids are products of overbearing hateful smothering parents. Surely there is some grey area there, you know? And while I am quoting and replying to you, I am not just directing that to you ~ But to several of the PP's on this thread who I felt implied that those of us who have different expectations for OUR children judge their children.

Whew. I need some coffee. Hope I make sense

[lotusdebi]

You seem to be reading something in my posts that isn't there. While some people in this thread may have wanted to just speak about their own expectations as parents to their own children, there have also been posts about other people's children. So, no, I'm not making it all about me. I'm not caring about how other people parent their own children. I truly don't care what expectations you have of your own children. I think that it's in judging other people and their chldren that creates problems. I don't think I can make that any more clear.
I'm glad that you don't go around judging others. I guess I'll leave it at that rather than go line by line trying to explain what I'm saying again. We don't seem to be reading each other's words as they're meant. At all.

[2xy]

If one is doing something that bothers most of the people around them, it is probably inappropriate. Yes, kids will be kids. But a child's wants do not trump the wants of others. Notice I said wants....not needs.

Excessive noise on a train ride would most likely give me a headache, which in turn would contribute to a feeling of carsickness. And yes, if adults were singing loudly on a train, I would find that equally annoying. Not because I sit in judgement of their behavior, like some holier-than-thou snob, but because their actions directly impact MY well-being and/or MY enjoyment of the ride. Why is it okay for kids to have a good time at the expense of others?

There are dozens of ways to have fun on a train ride. Being loud isn't necessary. I've taken trains, loooong flights, and a bazillion road-trips with my kids, and never found the need to have them shout, yell, or run around enclosed spaces to keep them happy.

As for playing with sugar packets and other condiments in restaurants...I'm a big proponent of being prepared. If I took my kids out someplace when they were little, I made sure we had activities/toys with us for them to play with. And yes, if sugar packets get wet, stained with debris from the table, et cetera, they get thrown away. I work in a restaurant. I've seen people allowing their babies to teeth on salt shakers and whatnot. Gross! Is it really so difficult to throw a couple of toys in a diaper bag, or keep a deck of cards or pack of crayons in your purse?

[hhurd]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

I think you are taking your individual child, and expecting every other child to be a carbon copy. My kids are nothing like your kid. My kids respond in their ways. What works for your child won't work for mine. Maybe, one day, you'll have a difficult child and realize that it wasn't your parenting that caused your child to behave, but that your child simply made parenting easy for you. You wouldn't be the first at MDC to have such an epiphany.

Love this. Worth repeating.

[sha_lyn]

Originally Posted by tallulahma

i think library's have rules about noise- at least ours do.... and we always follow posted rules and maintain a respect for the things of others.

but on a train or restaurant? havent we all been on a train with a group of people laughing really loudly or getting really into a story being told? i wouldnt let that offend me either- people enjoying life... laughing. I cannot even count how many times I have been at a restaurant with girlfriends or a group of adults where we were drinking and laughing and being loud or spilling drinks and been treated WONDERFULLY By our wait staff... because their tip would be huge since our bill was increasing with our noise level. no one was commenting on our rude waste of alcohol...

people make exceptions for adults all the time in the name of fun or a good time... yet when children are encouraged to act out in joy- people are up in arms and talking about lazy parents and bad behaviour and such.

Bravo very well said. I think the last sentence is the best in the whole thread (while there are many that touch me).

[contactmaya]

Havent read any posts on this, but going by your title-i think its ok for kids to sing at a reasonable volume. I cant imagine anyone being bothered bythis. But if they were, then they could kindly ask to sing more softly, but to ask them to stop, thats like the gringe that stole christmas mentality.

Im always on the side of singers, being one myself.

But yes, its ok. If other people have a problem, tell them to get a life, or go to another carriage (ok,i would be more polite in real life, but i would not tell my children to stop singing)

[contactmaya]

Ok, should have read the actual post.

OP, im with you on keeping voices down. I would still stick to what i said earlier, and let them know if the volume is bothering you, to tone it down. But yes, i agree that the other passengers should be more considerate.
Maya