At end of rope with 3yr old

[jnet24]

My son is very high needs. He is clingy, emotional, possible SPD for sensory seeking behavior, energetic, and quite the handful. It takes an average of 2 hours to fall asleep for bed without Melantonin, and about an hour for naps. He has only taken 1 nap for 1 hour maybe 1 1/2 hours since I can remember. He has never one time slept through the night. He had his adnoids removed and ear tubes placed in and that cut nightwakings from 7-10 times a night to around 3-5. This is not counting the times he stirs and then puts himself back to sleep. This is the number of times he screams, cries, needs a drink, wants to get up, actual wakeful times. I have not had more than 4 hours sleep for the last 3 years and really I am feeling the pain. I stopped nursing him at around 18 months, we have co slept from the night he was born, and he uses the pacifier to fall asleep. So many people tell me I caused the sleep problems, but even my 1 year old only wakes maybe 2 times a night.

Is this normal??

Things I have tried:
Later\earlier bedtime: no matter what still wakes at 7am still tired and cranky
Melantonin: helps to fall asleep but not stay asleep VERY low dose.(.25mg)
White noise
quiet movies
light projector for room
Baths before bed
Read the NCSS book
We have a very strict bedtime routine

The doctor says, "you must be tired" but nothing else. Everything I have tried has been at the suggestion of others who have BTDT.

WWYD??

[TiredX2]

Are you co-sleeping? If not, what happens when you do?

Are you sure he still needs a nap?

How have you decided on his bed/nap times?

Can you give a little more info about your daily schedule?

[jnet24]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

Are you co-sleeping? If not, what happens when you do?
We co-sleep and have since day one. Currently he starts out in our bed, but we have tried a toddler bed in out room where he started out in and then could join us when he first woke up. We tried this for 2 months and nothing changed

Are you sure he still needs a nap?
Sometimes I wonder this, but on the days he doesn't nap it is still the same battle. But I have considered this.

How have you decided on his bed/nap times?
He is pretty routine oriented. We just kinda fell into a pattern when he still nursed to sleep. We try to wathc for tired signs especcially at nap, most times he finds his pacifier and wants to lay down. He doesn;t play when trying to fall asleep even when it takes 2 hours he just can't fall asleep.

Can you give a little more info about your daily schedule?

We stay home most days and go to my mom's house for dinner. She lives right next door. He goes to EI preschool on Tues and Thurs. We have alot of movement toys inside and out that we try to play on alot. He does watch some tv, but not alot. Maybe a half an hour a day. I have tried to look for patterns in his night wakings and have thought of making a journal.

Is this normal for 3 year olds? Could it be allergy related? I have asked the doctor and he prescribed claritan and that does nothing. He also has the dark circles under his eyes and itchy eyes and nose too.

[earthmama369]

I have a 3.5-year-old bundle of sensory seeking energy and I haven't slept through the night more than a handful of times in about 5 years (he has an older sister). Welcome, sister.

OK, seriously...the sleep deprivation sucks, big time, for you and for kiddo who needs sleep to develop and make all those neural connections little kids make when they really sleep. It's really not you. You don't have much control over a sensory-seeker's sleep patterns. Heck, HE doesn't have much control over them, either!

We've been working with an OT to try to get a handle on sleep, and we have found a couple easy things that have been noticeably helping. Tight-fitting pajamas. It sounds weird, but sensory seeker-SPD kids often wake frequently during the night because their brains aren't getting the physical stimulus they need. Tight-fitting long-john style pajamas, like the kind Hanna Andersson or Hatley make, provide constant pressure along the arms and legs and can help a sensory seeker stay asleep. Also, we've been doing brushing and joint compressions before bed. DS has actually been asking for them and he's been sleeping better when we do the routine. We only started a couple weeks ago, but so far, so good. You'll want to get an OT to train you on this, if possible, but you can also Google and YouTube search for "Wilbarger brushing protocol" to get an idea of how to do it. The basic idea is that the brushing evens out the sensory input on the skin, basically dropping a sensory seeker into neutral, and then the joint compressions remind the brain of where the body is, remapping it in the proper sequence and space so that the brain can interpret sensory input better.

Best of luck!

[lurve]

nothing to help you out but i have an almost three year old who is a crappy sleeper. four hours is a miracle. i understand. hugs mama

[BetsyPage]

Another mama with a terrible 3 yo sleeper!!! Only within the past few months has she stayed asleep more than say 20 minutes without either sleeping ON me or NEXT to me (so I would hold her in my lap while I was downstairs in the evening, for example.)

She is a handful (very physical, lots of big movements, a climber) but we don't have a diagnosis and I'm not sure that she warrants one. I think she has just about given up her nap (down to maybe falling asleep in the car once a week) and is pretty firm with her 8:30 bedtime. Then she wakes up within 2 hours and dh can *usually* settle her (this is a HUGE thing, she has never accepted being resettled by anyone other than me before). Then she wakes again between 11-12:30 if I'm not in bed yet. She's very reliable in this. Oh, we have been giving her melatonin sometimes but I'm backing off that... if she hasn't had a nap, she doesn't really need it. We used it to sort of establish her bedtime since she used to go to bed later when she was napping.

Also wanted to note that she craves wearing footie pajamas, and she won't stop wearing pull-ups though she is dry at night, so I put her back in cloth actually which she quite likes. Not sure if this is sensory stuff or not. I'm interested in that brushing technique.

But oh also wanted to say that in the past 6 months her sleep has improved CONSIDERABLY. Like I said giving up her nap and going to bed at 8ish, letting dh resettle her, and also I have nightweaned her though she still nurses to sleep the first time. She does, however, want to sometimes be in close physical contact with me, so I'm trying to encourage her to stay in her own bed, which is next to mine (side-carred). I'm hoping she gets past needing the physical presence thing to sleep. I really did not have this issue with her big sister who sleeps like a log and was parented in exactly the same way.

[Kivgaen]

You've said that you have tried an earlier bedtime... but how early are we talking about?

I was just having a discussion on this very topic with some of the other parents at my son's school. I was amazed to discover that they start their bedtime routine at 6:30, and their DS (6 yo) is asleep by 7-7:30 every night. He also has a 30 min. nap in the afternoon.

Things they have tried to help DS fall asleep (who sounds very much like your DS and my DS) is a bath in the bedtime routine (sometimes baths actually wake up your child, so you have to be careful with them! Only you know your child). After bath, wrap him up tight in a towel or blanket, and massage him all over. (We play a stuffed burrito game -- what would you like in your burito?? peperoni here... mushrooms here... cheese here... etc). Sometimes we do a lavender oil foot massages (unless it tickles him -- don't do it if it tickles), and then sit with him in a rocking chair and read stories, while rubbing and massaging his head, and holding him tight so he can't squirm around and move. After a while of reading, rubbing, holding, and rocking, I feel him start to relax and his body just kind of goes into a rest state. Then I know he's ready.

Hope some of those suggestions are helpful. Good luck!

[Kivgaen]

Is it mostly the waking up part that is the issue, or the going to bed part?

As for the waking up part, what worked for us was we put a clock in my son's room and taught our 3yo what 7:00 looked like. We told him that until the first digit on his clock is a 7, that he can't come out of his bedroom. (He wasn't toilet trained at night, so we didn't need to worry about that aspect at that time).

And then the hard part: we enforced it for a week. (and than later "maintenence" enforcement, as it was required). I would put him back in his bed and tell him "watch your clock until you see the first number is a 7". He doesn't have to sleep if he's not tired, he can drink from his bottle of water, he can play quietly in his bed, he can read a book, but he can't come out.

I remember one of the last times through this process that he came out... it was 6:58. I told him "just watch your clock until you see the 7". He was upset and said "I don't want to watch my clock", and rolled over and put his face in his pillow (poor guy), and I didn't hear from him again until 7:30 that day. He ran into my bedroom and said good morning, it's 7:00!

My son is my alarm clock now. He wakes up around 7 every morning, he comes into our room, kisses everyone good morning, is happy, well adjusted, and sleeps like a baby all night. But that first week of "sleep-training", as I called it, was utter hell for all three of us.

I do not regret it for one second. In fact, I'm starting to think that my daughter needs some sleep training as well. She's starting to disrupt DH's evenings.

[jnet24]

Kivgaen
He wakes up at 7:40 takes a nap at about noon and sleeps till 1-1:30. And we start out bedtime routine at 7:30 without melatonin he takes forever to fall asleep with it he is asleep by 8:30 and wakes up about 2-3 hours from then on
I think it is more so the waking up frequently. He always screams and cries, I don't think it is night terrors as he has always down this. He sleeps in the same room as us, but maybe I should try the clock in his own room. I can't get him to even be in the bed awakes without us, or he cries. When you sleep trained your DS, didn't he cry without you? How is it different than CIO? I feel bad making him cry bc I feel like I made him need me to fall asleep and it is unfair of me to take that away?

I think the bath. massage, and rocking may help. Do you lay him down him bed when you realize that he is getting tired?? or do you rock him asleep?

[Kivgaen]

Originally Posted by jnet24

How is it different than CIO? I feel bad making him cry bc I feel like I made him need me to fall asleep and it is unfair of me to take that away?

I think the bath. massage, and rocking may help. Do you lay him down him bed when you realize that he is getting tired?? or do you rock him asleep?

It was different because we did go to him, but we were always firm. CIO, I believe, the child is left locked in a room (my sister physically held the door until the screams and pulling on the handle stopped... I can't believe she did that!). But with my son, we put a chair outside the door to his room and sat in it. We were always there, and he knew that we were there.

I can't say why it's different, but I just know that it is. If he woke up in the middle of the night, we would simply put him back in his bed and tell him that it's not 7:00 yet. Then go back and silently sit in the chair until he had settled down again.

I don't think either of us got much sleep for that first week. But it was SOOOO worth it. Seriously. I felt aweful going through that, but (as supernanny jo always says) it's more traumatic for US than it is for him, so I just had faith that we were doing the right thing and we perservered.

Maybe some people would say that it is the same thing as CIO, but I don't agree. For us, it was necessary, and in the end, EVERYONE was happy (including DS!).

[Kivgaen]

Originally Posted by jnet24

I think the bath. massage, and rocking may help. Do you lay him down in bed when you realize that he is getting tired?? or do you rock him asleep?

I finish up the story quickly, (whatever it is), and then put him in his bed and tell him that its time to sleep now. Then I would ask him a question: do you want your light on, or off? door open, or closed? do you want me to sit in the chair, etc.

Then I would sit in the chair and read until he was asleep. (I read a lot of parenting books that way).


We still occasionally sit in a chair outside his room until he is asleep, but it never lasts for longer than 5-10 minutes now.

[earthmama369]

Originally Posted by jnet24

I think it is more so the waking up frequently. He always screams and cries, I don't think it is night terrors as he has always down this. He sleeps in the same room as us, but maybe I should try the clock in his own room.

DS does this, too. It really seems to be tied into his sensory needs. It's not night terrors, we checked his diet, made sure he wasn't in physical pain, etc. He wakes up very disoriented and upset and is often inconsolable, and talking to him or asking him questions to try to figure out what's wrong just upsets him more. Generally he responds well to being walked and rocked back down.

If you didn't already suspect sensory issues, I would say to try NCSS or something like that. But if it's sensory-based, the usual methods may not click for him. Figuring out which sensory need is being raised while he is sleeping could really help you survive until he's old enough to handle his own sleep patterns. (We're holding out for the day ds can read a book when he can't sleep at night!) If he's not getting enough sensory stimulation while he sleeps, tight pajamas, brushing and joint compression, getting a sleep hammock, a white noise machine...these are all things that might help. It's odd, but we've found also that ds gets really upset when he has to pee while he's sleeping. It throws his system to pieces. Making sure he pees before going to bed can really help.