God's love and free will

[mykdsmomy]

(I just typed out a loonnggg post and then accidentally closed the window and lost the whole thing so I'm going to attempt to sum up what I originally wrote)


I was raised Catholic but now attend a basic bible based Christian church. I consider myself a Jesus follower.

I have been taught that God gives us free will because he loves us and doesn't desire to just make robot humans. He wants us to choose Him rather than hell.

This is something that I struggle with: God loves us because He is our father. Well as a mother, I love my children. If I saw my child running into the street, I would run after them and "save" them. Sure they have free will, but they may not understand the eternal consequences they may face if they run in front of a moving vehicle, right?
So if God loves us so much then why does he even allow us the choice to burn in hell? (and sorry for the extreme but this is what I've been taught....that we have free will and that God wants us to choose Him but if we choose not to follow Him, then we will live eternity apart from Him).

I just don't "get" this. I know God loves me. I know He has plans for me (Jerremiah 29:11) but I also can't wrap my head around God allowing us to make a choice that would harm us for all eternity?

[Nazsmum]

Free Will.....I think of it like this. Jesus did die for everyone. He does not want anyone to die. But if we all just followed him blindly where would the worship be?

We mess-up/sin we break the "rules". But God takes us back with open arms. We do the same for our children. It help us to learn and grow closer to God. If everything was always "OK" then would we grow? Growing is a trail and error kind of thing.

David sinned with a women. Sins where comminted BUT a great man came from that relationship and we learn from him to this day. David was a man after God own heart. But he had free will.

Joseph's brothers? Selling him and the things that happen with Joseph.....He could have left God......But he always stayed with what he know to be right.

I hope this helps a little. I could write more but I have a little guy who needs me.

[cappuccinosmom]

Well, I do believe God pursues us.

But just like there are some children who refuse to be rescued by their parents, there are some humans who refuse even God's pursuit. Would you go so far to rescue your children as to put them in a straight jacket and not allow them to do anything in order to avoid them making a wrong choice?

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Well, I do believe God pursues us.

But just like there are some children who refuse to be rescued by their parents, there are some humans who refuse even God's pursuit. Would you go so far to rescue your children as to put them in a straight jacket and not allow them to do anything in order to avoid them making a wrong choice?

Great!

I was thinking something similar. It's as if your child is running toward the street and you are 50 feet from them and the road is 20 feet from your child. You are chasing after them, SHOUTING for them to "stop! You'll hurt yourself! There's a car coming! TRUST ME, I KNOW! Come back to me! I LOVE YOU! Hold my hand and I will help you!" And your child looks back at you and smiles, but they feel that they just KNOW they will be ok on their own. You keep pursuing, but if your child chooses to run in to the street without turning back to take your hand first, then despite your best efforts, they made the wrong choice. You would think that after all the years of loving them and caring for them and proving that your are trustworthy that your child would believe what you say, trust you, and want to come and be with you, but some kids just aren't like that.

Sometimes, God is dealing with toddlers who just want to assert their independence and live apart from Him. Sometimes, they are preschoolers who think they are unstoppable and nothing will hurt them, they don't need Him. And sometimes God is dealing with teenagers who just won't HEAR him.

I believe he keeps persuing us. I can see God woven throughout my childhood and teen years, yet I did not HEAR Him until I was 22 years old. Sometimes it just takes THAT long for us to open our hearts and minds to the love of God. I believe He will keep persuing us until we hear, unfortuntately, sometimes we hit the street before we learn to trust our Father.

[Bluegoat]

I think rather than imagining your small child running toward the street, you imagine your adult child choosing something you think is wrong to dedicate him or herself to.

That can be difficult, and if you could somehow make it so that your child would remain 6 forever, might be avoided.

But, would you want to let your child remain 6? Even if you knew he would make a bad choice as an adult?

[umsami]

This reminds me... there was a pastor who was pretty prominent in Evangelical circles back when I was a Christian... who was basically ostracized for having a vision (and believing it) that nobody would go to hell. Oh gosh... what is his name.... what is his name.... he was also a gospel singer...


hold on....


Carlton Pearson. He calls it the "gospel of inclusion."

I saw him on Dateline or 20/20 or something. I'm sure if you google him, you can read more about it.

http://www.inclusion.ws/faq1.htm

[MyLittleWonders]

Originally Posted by umsami

This reminds me... there was a pastor who was pretty prominent in Evangelical circles back when I was a Christian... who was basically ostracized for having a vision (and believing it) that nobody would go to hell. Oh gosh... what is his name.... what is his name.... he was also a gospel singer...


hold on....


Carlton Pearson. He calls it the "gospel of inclusion."

I saw him on Dateline or 20/20 or something. I'm sure if you google him, you can read more about it.

http://www.inclusion.ws/faq1.htm

I have his book on my multi-book "to read" pile. I am very interested to read what he has to say (hopefully he helps me articulate my beliefs on the universality of salvation as I can't do it well enough to defend myself ).

[cappuccinosmom]

I heard an interview with them. I disagree with him theologically.

Universal salvation by the God of the Bible would equal force and that wouldn't equal heaven for people who despise Him.

I do believe God pursues each one and give each person ample opportunity to make the choice for an eternity with Him or not. But I think spending an eternity with a God you hated would be awfully similar to Hell anyway.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

But I think spending an eternity with a God you hated would be awfully similar to Hell anyway.

I have a difficult time imagining people who despise god who have not suffered such calamity in their own lives or own minds as to make it understandable. There are of course people who despise the idea of god, but that's not really the same as despising god ... it's despising the idea of a such an influential belief in the imaginary.

For those who hate what has happened to themselves so much that they can not help but to hate whatever force created it, I think an eternity of true peace, with anyone, would not be especially hellish. More a respite. And for those who simply disbelieve, and hate what the force of belief can sometimes do, any afterlife would be being shown a whole new truth, which doesn't sound necessarily hellish either.

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Well, I do believe God pursues us.

But just like there are some children who refuse to be rescued by their parents, there are some humans who refuse even God's pursuit. Would you go so far to rescue your children as to put them in a straight jacket and not allow them to do anything in order to avoid them making a wrong choice?

No, but if I thought they would spend eternity in hell from a dumb mistake they made here on earth (if I had the power to protect them in that way, I would want to). Does that make sense?
I certainly don't want my children to live at home forever and not go out on their own and make their own choices, etc. But the worst thing that could happen to them when they do leave home is (God forbid) die a mortal death. (I realize how morbid this sounds but I hope you understand the context in which I am writing this). The worst thing that God knows will happen to us is that we would spend eternity in darkness or hell or whatever......so I do see a huge difference between us as parents and God as our Father.
(I hope that makes some sense as it's late and my thoughts are somewhat jumbled)

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by umsami

This reminds me... there was a pastor who was pretty prominent in Evangelical circles back when I was a Christian... who was basically ostracized for having a vision (and believing it) that nobody would go to hell. Oh gosh... what is his name.... what is his name.... he was also a gospel singer...


hold on....


Carlton Pearson. He calls it the "gospel of inclusion."

I saw him on Dateline or 20/20 or something. I'm sure if you google him, you can read more about it.

http://www.inclusion.ws/faq1.htm

Interesting! Thank you, I"ll definitely look into what he has to say.

[cappuccinosmom]

No, but if I thought they would spend eternity in hell from a dumb mistake they made here on earth (if I had the power to protect them in that way, I would want to). Does that make sense?

Of course. But in Christian theology it isn't "some dumb mistake" or any particular sin that sends a person to hell. An eternity apart from God is a result of saying no to his pursuit and proffered salvation.

[JMJ]

I think sometimes God protects us from what we don't understand too. I believe that God can save someone who is not Christian or who makes bad choices because they didn't know any better. I know that some Christians believe otherwise, but I would be very hesitant to put God into a box, saying that he would only save people who fully understand how to follow him or to draw a line somewhere along the path of finding God to say that it is close enough or not close enough. God will be the one to judge our hearts. I know that I have the free will to choose hell if I want. I know that hell is a possibility, but I shouldn't be surprised if I die and find that no person actually made that choice.