What do you consider NCB--and would you have said something? - Page 2

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

I dunno, I think in so many ways this sounds like a spitting contest YKWIM? Its like women need to compete to see who has the "best" birth...with "best" having many definitions depending on the crowd. The OP sounds very judgy to me ("stunned looks" and then producing her credentials). Why do we all feel such a need for one-upmanship? So many crunchy mommies are tramatized because their births do not go as they wished, and then they/we are made to somehow feel impure because of it.

So now that I have probably offended everyone...sorry.

I totally agree with this. To take it a step further, one could even argue that a hospital birth at all is not "natural". Others might say that a homebirth with assistance is not "natural". I think getting hung up on the semantics is putting more energy into placing judgement than is called for.

[Cheshire]

This subject comes up on this board every few months - do a search and you'll find lots of opinions.

Some like to say natural so they don't have to say vaginal, especially in mixed company.

To each his own.

[columbusmomma]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

I dunno, I think in so many ways this sounds like a spitting contest YKWIM? Its like women need to compete to see who has the "best" birth...with "best" having many definitions depending on the crowd. The OP sounds very judgy to me ("stunned looks" and then producing her credentials). Why do we all feel such a need for one-upmanship? So many crunchy mommies are tramatized because their births do not go as they wished, and then they/we are made to somehow feel impure because of it.

So now that I have probably offended everyone...sorry.

Well put! I don't like the word "natural" birth, to each her own whatever natural may, or may not mean. How about just using the term birth??

[Juvysen]

The term "natural" can just mean so many things... I dunno. I mean - even on food labels, "natural" is a stretchy word. Meh. My first baby was induced but I had no pain meds. I call it "an induction with no pain meds"... the second one was a home birth. I call it a "home birth"... if people want more information, I'm happy to share.

I guess I mean that "natural" could be describing the endocrinology involved, the endurance involved, or it could be describing the physical means by which the baby was born. That is, "natural" could mean that you only used your own hormones (i.e. not at all induced, but possibly with use of pain meds), it could mean that you had no pain meds (like you took on all the pain "naturally", even if you were induced or whatever) or it could mean that you had the baby come out your vagina (even by means of vacuum and flat on your back with a gigantic episiotomy or whatever - which isn't exactly natural either). It could also mean that you walked, pushed in different positions, squatted... blah blah blah. I dunno. "Natural" is just not very descriptive, imo.

[finnegansmom]

I would never have said anything about their label for their own birth.

But in terms of "natural", you can push the lines in either direction. I gave birth to my second son in a tub. Is that natural? Do other primates normally birth in water? Is it a form of pain relief and therefore not natural? The cord was cut and clamped a few minutes after birth - are only lotus births natural?

the word natural is really subjective.

I think if someone said, "I had a pain med free birth. I also had a constant IV of demoral" or whatever, then maybe I'd raise a brow...(then again maybe not)

[AlexisT]

There was an interesting debate in the UK over how to define a "normal" birth. I think their basic criteria were no induction and no epidural. Pethidine (Demerol) and gas and air were okay. Episiotomy, forceps, ventouse were all out.

Interestingly, "normal" birth (obviously this is not the same as "natural" but it shows the difficulties in defining this) included augmentation with pitocin and AROM, provided that it was't done as a part of induction. It also included managed 3rd stage. Some members of the working group wanted these excluded and there was talk of a tighter definition of "natural" birth. If I were drawing up a definition (and the point of the debate was that there had to be a single, clear, consistent definition of "normal birth" so that statistics could be collected and analysed) I would exclude augmentation and probably opioids. Entonox is dicey for me, really. Excluding managed 3rd stage is difficult, almost purity at the expense of sense. It's the NICE recommendation and standard practice.

[Juvysen]

My SIL was given some sort of narcotic, but told it wasn't a pain med, it was just to help her relax. Fenta-something? She claims to have had a pain med-free birth. I'm not convinced... Her description of the drug sounded exactly like descriptions I've heard people give of Stadol

[bobandjess99]

NCB means completely diferent things to different people. In my area, which is ATROCIOUS for birth, "natural" childbirth usually refers to having the baby vaginally, )versus surgically), regardless of whether epidurals, pain meds, or otehr interventions galore are used......ya, it's that bad.
Personally, I refuse to use teh term "natural" to describe ANY hospital birth, because I don't believe going to a hospital to birth to be at all a "natural" thing to do. I will say"she had an unmedicated, low-intervention hospital birth" to describe, for example, the births a few friends have had with the one good hospital midwife.

[bobandjess99]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

My SIL was given some sort of narcotic, but told it wasn't a pain med, it was just to help her relax. Fenta-something? She claims to have had a pain med-free birth. I'm not convinced... Her description of the drug sounded exactly like descriptions I've heard people give of Stadol

Fentanyl is an extremely potent narcotic, about 100 times stronger than MORPHINE.
Uh..ya, she had pain meds.

[Mamatoto2]

Well, I generally don't use the term "NCB" I say drug-free birth if that's what I mean, in large part because I think it more clearly communicates what I mean but also because "NCB" may imply that birthing in any way other than drug free is "unnatural" which to me has negative tone (sounds like I'm judging to me). I think that technically one could make the argument that a baby coming to live on the outside after cooking in-utero is the natural progression of things, even if the vagina is not the exit route or drugs were on-board (not suggesting that drugs are a great option or that they don't have negative effects on mom/baby, etc., just that they don't necessarily "contaminate" the birth, rendering it "unnatural").

When I refer to my births, I generally say that I had a drug-free midwife-assisted water birth for my first (and many folks would, and did, suggest that birthing a human in water is not natural). Of course I also hemorrhaged after she was born and again a couple days later and had TONS of drugs and blood transfusions and ultimately surgery as a result, so in my head the experience of the birth in totality did NOT feel very natural to me. When I speak of my second, I say that I had an emergency c-section (or surgical birth) as my DD was very intent on staying transverse breech. Her being transverse breech was just as "unnatural" as me trying to deliver her vaginally would have been. Likewise, the "unnatural" classical incision left on my uterus as a result combined with the "unnatural" pregnancy complications that have marked my current pregnancy will require another c-section. My birth will be a natural progression of my pregnancy to result in a safe delivery for me an baby even though it won't be a vaginal or drug-free delivery.

To be clear, I personally would always opt for a drug-free vaginal delivery if possible, because I think that it represents the best overall scenario for mother/baby, but I wouldn't want to suggest to any woman that the way they brought their child into the world was "unnatural."

[tinyshoes]

Originally Posted by noobmom

I was talking to an acquaintance of mine at a kid's function. Her first child was born around the same time as mine and although I didn't know all the details of her labor and birth, she had mentioned several times that she had a natural childbirth.

For this particular conversation we were talking about labor/childbirth in a group of people. The group consisted of mostly crunchy types--all of whom had done NCB, several waterbirths, homebirths, etc. In fact, among the group there was a Bradley instructor and a doula-in-training. Basically, every mom was pretty well-versed.

I think you were smart to not say anything to "correct" this woman who seems like she was proud to have a NBC just like the crunchy crew she was hanging out with. I'm sure she knows that drugs at the hospital isn't "as natural" as the other birthing styles you've mentioned.

In these situations, sometimes I like to try to get the mama to talk more about her birth experience--questions like, 'so what made you want to have a natural birth?' or "what did you like best about the experience?" or "what would you change if you could do it over again?"

Then it becomes less of a contest and more of a discussion, which is what I think we all want and are trying to do when we Talk Birth.

Bring on the Natural Ruffles Potato Chips!!!!

[caned & able]

NCB is something that is never seen in a hospital maternity ward. There is always an intavenous solution with something in it or a heplock, a fetal monitor of some kind, a mother put to bed, no eating, a catheter, and threats of drugs, forceps, or vacuum extractor or surgery.

Nothing natural about those.

Unfortunately, NCB is usually considered anything short of a c/sec by most people.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by caned & able

NCB is something that is never seen in a hospital maternity ward. There is always an intavenous solution with something in it or a heplock, a fetal monitor of some kind, a mother put to bed, no eating, a catheter, and threats of drugs, forceps, or vacuum extractor or surgery.

Nothing natural about those.

Unfortunately, NCB is usually considered anything short of a c/sec by most people.

I dunno... my friend just had what I'll call the "perfect" hospital birth... no harassment, intermittant monitoring (so i guess not completely perfect), no heplock, ate when she wanted, no cath, no mention of drugs, and baby was born in the caul... I was shocked and thrilled for her - she had wanted a home birth but couldn't get a midwife (they were all booked up ).

Of course - there's the argument that even leaving your "normal" (home) environment makes it unnatural, by definition...

[noobmom]

Thanks for all the replies.

Just to clarify a few things. I don't judge anyone for their birth choices. In my area most people have epidurals, it's almost unheard of to not have one. So truly, no one would bat an eye no matter what kind of birth is being discussed.

As for listing my "credentials", I actually mentioned my own birth for the opposite reason: I had a hospital birth, which I believe some people would not consider "natural". So personally, I don't usually use the term NCB--I refer to my birth as non-medicated, which I believe to be completely accurate as I had no epidural, IV, shots, or pills during the birth. So, that was my purpose in mentioning that.

The reason for the stunned looks was because this woman had previously said did not have an epidural and made comments about her high pain tolerance. So, it was really just surprise on my part that she had the IV drugs. I had assumed that NCB would mean no drugs. I think the moral of the story is to not make any assumptions about what someone means by NCB.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. I guess it might be like someone saying that they EBF and then later mentioning that they give the baby a bottle of formula when they put her down to sleep. I don't care or judge if other people give their babies formula, but I would be surprised if someone said they were EBF at the same time.

[AlexisT]

Originally Posted by caned & able

NCB is something that is never seen in a hospital maternity ward. There is always an intavenous solution with something in it or a heplock, a fetal monitor of some kind, a mother put to bed, no eating, a catheter, and threats of drugs, forceps, or vacuum extractor or surgery.

Nothing natural about those.

Unfortunately, NCB is usually considered anything short of a c/sec by most people.

Um, this is not true. (Don't forget, "never" is an absolute: a single natural birth would disprove your statement.) They are not as common or available as they should be, but they DO happen (and in some other countries are quite common).

I don't think fearmongering and exaggeration is the best way to promote natural birth.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by Bokonon

I totally agree with this. To take it a step further, one could even argue that a hospital birth at all is not "natural". Others might say that a homebirth with assistance is not "natural". I think getting hung up on the semantics is putting more energy into placing judgement than is called for.

Actually, my hospital births were entirely without intervention.... just a little listening in on the handheld doptone.

But yeah, I think folks confuse natural with vaginal because they can't bring themselves to say that word.

[Tofu the Geek]

Originally Posted by caned & able

NCB is something that is never seen in a hospital maternity ward. There is always an intavenous solution with something in it or a heplock, a fetal monitor of some kind, a mother put to bed, no eating, a catheter, and threats of drugs, forceps, or vacuum extractor or surgery.

Your statement is inaccurate from my personal experience in two different hospitals.

[MamaMelis]

Originally Posted by caned & able

NCB is something that is never seen in a hospital maternity ward. There is always an intavenous solution with something in it or a heplock, a fetal monitor of some kind, a mother put to bed, no eating, a catheter, and threats of drugs, forceps, or vacuum extractor or surgery.
.

I completely disagree. Rarely? Perhaps. Never, no.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by caned & able

NCB is something that is never seen in a hospital maternity ward. There is always an intavenous solution with something in it or a heplock, a fetal monitor of some kind, a mother put to bed, no eating, a catheter, and threats of drugs, forceps, or vacuum extractor or surgery.

Nothing natural about those.

No, that's not true at all. I had amazing natural births at a hospital with none of those things. I ate, walked around naked, did pretty much whatever I pleased and gave birth standing up.

[Cheshire]

NCB is something that is never seen in a hospital maternity ward. There is always an intavenous solution with something in it or a heplock, a fetal monitor of some kind, a mother put to bed, no eating, a catheter, and threats of drugs, forceps, or vacuum extractor or surgery.

My third birth would also be the needle to the bubble of the "never" part of your statement.

Walked into observation in full blown labor, changed clothes, and water broke all over the floor. Rushed to delivery room, got on the bed and pushed out my baby in three pushes, The midwife didn't even have a chance to get all geared up. No monitoring, no heplock or IV, didn't even have a chance to sign any consent forms until after the birth.

And, I disagree about being in a hospital making a birth unnatural. Many mammals seek out safe locations other than "home" to give birth. If a woman feels the hospital is her safe place I would think of that as natural for her.