Age to begin discipline?

[Wisteriacow]

DS will be 14months next week. He is very energetic, curious and strong willed. We've tried to child-proof as much as possible but given that we are in a 2-bedroom condo (which includes my office area) and we plan on moving in the next few months, there's only so much that could be done. DS has been advanced in some areas of development (even commented on by his pediatrician). I think a lot of times he's showing signs that he knows right and wrong but still does the "wrong" anyway. In the last few days he's taken to shaking his head no after he's done something he shouldn't but before I've said anything. Obviously he has some idea he shouldn't be doing it.
We haven't done much of anything as far as discipline (other than trying to redirect) because everything I've seen has said not before 18months. DH and I are getting concerned that waiting another 4 months might be too long. I'm already getting frustrated with some of the behavior (throwing himself down and whining when he doesn't get his way, kicking/screaming/thrashing while I'm changing his diaper). I don't like how frustrated I get. My mother had a horrible temper when I was growing up and I don't want the emotional abuse that caused to be passed on through me to my son.
Why is 18months considered the age at which to being discipline other than redirecting? Seems like such an arbitrary number instead of going by other readiness signs. Advice on where to begin on choosing a discipline style? I don't have time to read the books on the list, just looking at it overwhelms me. Are there 1 or 2 that are absolute MUSTS to give me a basis?
Please help, I don't wanna screw up my son before he can even talk! Thanks!!

[Ruthla]

If you're redirecting when he "misbehaves", then you already are disciplining him! And if you're waiting until a set age to start "punishing" him, then I think no age is old enough for that. Discipline is about teaching kids the way you want them to act, not about punishing kids for misbehavior.

I never waited for a set age to "start disciplining" my kids. As soon as the baby was old enough to pull my hair when being held, I started disciplining (by saying "Ouch! no hair pulling" and moving the child's hand away.) I continued to deal with individual behaviors as they happened, and I didn't implement any specific strategies at any specific age. The way I disciplined 2yos wasn't dramatically different from the way I disciplined 13mos- although things were a little different because my expectations were different and DC was more capable of reason.

If you share specific behaviors that you're having trouble with, we can help you brainstorm gentle ways for dealing with them.

[chfriend]

Redirecting and modeling the behavior you are shooting for are discipline. And might effective at that.

Are you referring to an age to start punishing? Discipline means teaching, not punishing.

The best thing I read around that time was a Sears discussion talking about frustration "tantrums" in little ones. Sounds like your is growing well and naturally becoming frustrated with his limitations and expressing that.

You don't need to respond any other way than with the empathy you yourself would hope for when frustrated by learning something new.

[Spirit Dancer]

Discipline is a very broad word. I interpret it to mean guide, direct or teach. Things you do everyday from a very young age. Example: If my 7mo old where to pull my hair and laugh, I would say "ouch, don't pull mommy's hair" in a calm voice and gently disengage their hand. If my 14 mo old hit me with his toy, I would matter-of-factly take the toy away and say "No hitting. That hurt me".
AS thy get older discipline grows and changes to some degree.
Good luck.

[Wisteriacow]

Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer

If my 14 mo old hit me with his toy, I would matter-of-factly take the toy away and say "No hitting. That hurt me".
AS thy get older discipline grows and changes to some degree.
Good luck.

Using this example, if DS hits me with a toy and I calmly take the toy away, he FREAKS. Starts screaming and crying like its the end of the world, etc. Given his (over)reaction to such mild things, it makes me feel already overwhelmed and like I'm not doing it right.
I guess some of my frustration/confusion is discipline vs. punishment. I want him to understand there are consequences to his actions in an age appropriate way.
Before having DS, DH and I were on the same page about punishment but now I think I'm changing my mind.

[Ruthla]

It's OK if your toddler has a tantrum when you say "no" to him or take away a toy that he's misused. Just make sure that he's tantrumming in a safe place (where he can't hurt himself or others during the tantrum" and ride it out. Some kids just need to vent their feelings in a very loud, dramatic way, as part of learning to process strong emotions.

When he's done tantrumming, he'll be ready to snuggle, nurse, be distracted with another toy or a snack, etc. During the tantrum, kids are usually completely unreasonable, and all you can do is stay near them (but out of kicking distance) until it's over.

[woodchick]

Originally Posted by Wisteriacow

Using this example, if DS hits me with a toy and I calmly take the toy away, he FREAKS. Starts screaming and crying like its the end of the world, etc. Given his (over)reaction to such mild things, it makes me feel already overwhelmed and like I'm not doing it right.
I guess some of my frustration/confusion is discipline vs. punishment. I want him to understand there are consequences to his actions in an age appropriate way.
Before having DS, DH and I were on the same page about punishment but now I think I'm changing my mind.

I think in this example that the consequence of hitting you with a toy would be that he gets the toy taken away. It is immediate and directly related to the offense.

Some times it is hard for me to separate 'natural consequences' and my selfish desire for the offender to feel the same pain that I did (physical or emotional). But my job is to teach, not to punish so I work to push those feelings aside. It isn't easy though!

I'd recommend taking a step back for a little bit. Redirection and reminders should do the trick for now. 14 mos is too early to expect consistent 'good' behavior, IMHO. It can be frustrating, but if you are gentle, consistent and persistent he'll start to catch on.

[mrsfrenchy]

Originally Posted by Wisteriacow

Using this example, if DS hits me with a toy and I calmly take the toy away, he FREAKS. Starts screaming and crying like its the end of the world, etc. Given his (over)reaction to such mild things, it makes me feel already overwhelmed and like I'm not doing it right.
I guess some of my frustration/confusion is discipline vs. punishment. I want him to understand there are consequences to his actions in an age appropriate way.
Before having DS, DH and I were on the same page about punishment but now I think I'm changing my mind.

DD used to do that and still does to some extent. In that example, I would take the toy away, saying it hurt and that we have to be gentle with toys. Sometime she would freak out completely right away. Sometime she begins by whining...eventually leading to a full tantrum. What I would do once she started getting upset is say "if you want the toy, you have to be gentle. this is how we play with the toy" So she would get another chance, with me demonstrating how to use the toy. If she messes up that chance. I'd repeat the bit about being gentle and move on to a different toy after the tantrum happened.

Also, it helps to remember that tantrums are totally normal and developmentally appropriate behavior. Toddlers are experiencing some very strong emotions for the first time ever and they're not sure what to do with them. It can even be scary for them sometime, I think! So it's important that we allow them to express their emotions in a safe way, give them words for how they're feeling ("you sound mad!"), and gradually teach them what to do when they get angry/frustrated.

I'm thinking of a specific book that I really liked but can't remember the name. I'll come back and post it later when I (hopefully) find it.

[chfriend]

This might help: http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm

[mrsfrenchy]

Ok here it is.

http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Paren...2641064&sr=1-1

I love this book and its been recommended many times on here. It offers a lot of good practical advice, specific examples, and developmental info (like about the appropriateness of tantrums) that all helped me a lot. Both in what I did when DD "misbehaved" and the way I thought about it.

[swisscanmom]

My ds was a huge tantrum thrower, at the same time I don't think my dd has ever had a tantrum, some kids just freak out faster than others. Even when they are parented the same.
I agree that if he hits you with the toy you take it away. Let him have his tantrum in a safe place and once he has calmed down explain that he has to be gentle with the toy or he can't play with it. Give it back to him at this point for another chance. Every child is different as to what age they need more or less guidance, my ds was more difficult than others early on and got easily upset. I found that it happened more when he was hungry or tired, so I learned to ward off situations by making sure his other needs were met as soon as he showed any signs. Things would go downwhill fast if I didn't.

[ann_of_loxley]

Birth! - Discipline means to teach, not to punish. Personally, we have never started 'punishments' and never plan to. My son was four in September.
There is a lot to 'discipline' and the basics start from birth. There is so much more to things like a natural peaceful birth, co sleeping, breastfeeding, baby wearing, etc - than whats on the surface.

[Kivgaen]

Originally Posted by Wisteriacow

I'm already getting frustrated with some of the behavior (throwing himself down and whining when he doesn't get his way, kicking/screaming/thrashing while I'm changing his diaper). I don't like how frustrated I get. My mother had a horrible temper when I was growing up and I don't want the emotional abuse that caused to be passed on through me to my son.

All of that is understandable.

I am the same way as well. What works for me is that I often need to remind myself that it's my childs job to explore the boundaries. It's their job to push the buttons and explore and figure out how things work in the world. Rather than get frustrated with him for not doing what he is SUPPOSED to be doing, I just recognize that MY job is to remain calm when(not if) he mis-behaves, and to figure out ways in which I can direct him to the appropriate action. It is MY job to continue to teach him right from wrong and to model appropriate behaviors for him to mimic. It is MY job to have a backbone and to stand firm and be consistent with my rules.

Once I re-adjust my expectations of him from being "good" to "behaving the way a child is supposed to behave", then I found it easier to remain calm and deal with the "discipline" aspect.

If you need any tips for specific discipline situations (like the squirmy baby -- diapering problem), I'm sure everyone here would be happy to share with you the tools in their toolbox. What worked for me with the "squirmy baby" problem is I just decided not to continue trying to change the diaper while he/she was moving. I held his/her feet, and waited until they were still, and then changed them. After a few attempts, they figured out the rule!

[sapphire_chan]

And a lot of people have luck with giving their LO something to hold. Apparently a piece of tape is especially effective!

It might help to think of it as an invitation to a game when he starts going for something you don't want him to touch and looks back and says "no". Like "I'm going to touch this! Will mama stop me this time? She did! "

[darcytrue]

I started as soon as they were able to crawl and get to no-no things. The word no and re-direction are used alot in my house from ages 6 mos-2 yrs.

[LynnS6]

I think the other thing that is important to realize is that when your child moves from being a baby to being a toddler, your job shifts. When he was a baby, he expressed his needs with crying. Your job was to meet those needs and stop the crying. Toddlers add tantrums, not because they're being bad, but because they're overwhelmed by the powerful emotions they're feeling. Your job now is not to prevent those powerful emotions, but to help him deal with them in a constructive way.

A good article on tears and tantrums is this one by Althea Solter: Understanding Tears and Tantrums.

At 14 months, he still relies on you for most of his emotional regulation. Yes, he will lose it and yes, that is really hard on a parent. Let him have his tantrum and cuddle afterward. At 14 months, I think it's too young to separate him while he has the tantrum. Stay nearby and interact with him as he's ready. But realize that this is not about you. It's about him being overwhelmed. Toddlers get overwhelmed a lot.

As he gets more language, the tantrums will ease, though they might not go away for years. I've got one tantrumer (dd, who is 5 1/2) who probably has a tantrum once a week now. It's down from 2x a day several years ago, so we are definitely making progress! She's just an intense kid who feels things deeply.

I'd recommend the book Raising Your Spirited Child - it's a bit early to say whether your ds is 'spirited', but I like this book because it talks about your temperament and your child's temperament and how that affects your parenting.

Finally, you might consider doing some work yourself to work through your mom's influence on you. Given your mom's temper, it sounds like you learned to truly fear expressions of anger. Anger is a normal emotion and so the legacy that you don't want to pass on to your son is to be afraid of his emotions. It's hard to let your child fully express emotions that you yourself are uncomfortable with.

[Wisteriacow]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond. You've raised some really good points. I think I was feeling a desire to punish him for being "mean" to me. Totally illogical but now that it's been put into words it's easier for me to ignore that feeling.
I'm trying to view his tantrums as his being frustrated rather than him trying to bed bad and it does make it easier. I guess its easy to forget sometimes how much of a baby he still really is.
I have Raising Your Spirited Child checked out from the library. They also had Tears and Tantrums so I picked that up. I'm a little ways into it and I think it's going to be helpful. I feel silly needing a book to teach me how to deal with my own child but I'm lost trying to figure it out myself and obviously the way I was raised didn't equip me for this. (And I have been in counseling for a few months now, originally for PPD, but now touching on things in the past too.)
I also think I was taking my anti-CIO stance too far. I had not letting him cry so ingrained in me that I felt like he should never cry. Totally unrealistic and it feels liberating to realize he needs that emotional outlet. Obviously I'm still a long ways off from totally understanding what he needs from me and how to best help him, but at least we're on our way.
I can only imagine that it will get easier once he starts learning a few words too.

[mrsfrenchy]

Originally Posted by Wisteriacow

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond. You've raised some really good points. I think I was feeling a desire to punish him for being "mean" to me. Totally illogical but now that it's been put into words it's easier for me to ignore that feeling.
I'm trying to view his tantrums as his being frustrated rather than him trying to bed bad and it does make it easier. I guess its easy to forget sometimes how much of a baby he still really is.
I have Raising Your Spirited Child checked out from the library. They also had Tears and Tantrums so I picked that up. I'm a little ways into it and I think it's going to be helpful. I feel silly needing a book to teach me how to deal with my own child but I'm lost trying to figure it out myself and obviously the way I was raised didn't equip me for this. (And I have been in counseling for a few months now, originally for PPD, but now touching on things in the past too.)
I also think I was taking my anti-CIO stance too far. I had not letting him cry so ingrained in me that I felt like he should never cry. Totally unrealistic and it feels liberating to realize he needs that emotional outlet. Obviously I'm still a long ways off from totally understanding what he needs from me and how to best help him, but at least we're on our way.
I can only imagine that it will get easier once he starts learning a few words too.

I'm glad you're feeling better about it. New stages of development are always hard. And you're right, it will definitely get a little easier on both of you once he starts learning how to express himself verbally. (though, you also will have to still remind yourself that he's still small--DD is so verbal that I sometimes expect her to function beyond her age and I forget that she's just 1.5)

Any time you run into a new behavior that you don't know how to deal with, I always find this board and the toddler board to be very helpful in finding new ways to deal with and think about the behavior.

[peaceful_mama]

If you mean "discipline" as in "do not allow the child to do things you don't want him to do" and "help the child through things that must be done but not allow him to simply not do it" (like diaper changing) then there is no such thing as too young.

For example, my babies are *not* allowed to play with my glasses. They are not a toy. I take them away, I use the word "no", I distract. Sometimes I do wear my contacts or leave them in to avoid this with my 14 month old who is fascinated.
If there's anything he is not allowed to play with, for whatever reason you want, then there should not be an age where it is OK. You'll just have to change that behavior later.

I don't allow temper tantrums to 'work" for them. At any age. If they try throwing themselves on the ground and screaming because I have said no, they don't get it. Simple as that, no matter how old they are. There is, in my opinion, NO age that this should work for them, because it is only going to create problems for later.

There are, of course, different ways to handle it at different ages--babies who don't yet know get distracted. Children who DO know and are CHOOSING the wrong choice will probably get a consequence. You will know when this is appropriate. (For example, my 5 year old knows that you can't just pick up something in the store and start eating it, my 14 month old does not. My 5 year old would understand me not buying him the usual sucker or "pop-juice' at the end of a trip to the health food store because he did this, the baby would not.)

[DevaMajka]

Check out this article: Toddler Testing
and this Looking Past the Behavior

Originally Posted by Wisteriacow

Using this example, if DS hits me with a toy and I calmly take the toy away, he FREAKS. Starts screaming and crying like its the end of the world, etc. Given his (over)reaction to such mild things, it makes me feel already overwhelmed and like I'm not doing it right.
I guess some of my frustration/confusion is discipline vs. punishment. I want him to understand there are consequences to his actions in an age appropriate way.

At that age, my basic discipline in situations where he was doing something that was not acceptable, I used the idea of "honor the impulse" from the book Becoming the Parent You Want to Be.
Basically, there's a legitimate impulse behind his actions. He's just expressing it in a way that is unacceptable. So you try to redirect that impulse in a way that IS acceptable. But it is important that you actually try to honor the impulse that he's feeling at the moment, and not just distracting him with something totally unrelated, kwim?

For hitting with a toy, there are a lot of possible impulses, and lots of possible redirections. For my ds, if he was hitting to test out "cause and effect" (let's see what happens if I hit x), I'd redirect him to hit the floor, the couch, the wall and experiment with the different sounds it makes. (oh, and I'd also make it quite clear that it's not ok to hit me "Don't hit me. I do NOT like to be hit." "You can experiment with hitting this or this.")

If he was trying to get my attention or trying to get me to play with him, I'd try to give him a better way to express that. If he's angry, then there would be a whole different redirection.

Now, I'm not totally opposed to just removing a toy if it's being misused and is causing harm to someone. And I'm not necessarily opposed to letting dc cry because of it. I just think that showing them better ways to express the impulse they are currently trying to express, helps them learn more in the long run. And, at least in my experience, it worked quickly in the short term, and led to less unhappiness in both of us.

There were a few times with ds1 that I did take something from him when he couldn't stop using it inappropriately (hitting with it, etc). Those times, I told him "I'm going to take this away to take away the temptation to [misuse it]." He was quite ok with me taking things away in those cases. But I said it in a very "I'm on your side, and I can see that you are trying to do the right thing and just can't resist the temptation" type way. Does that make any sense? He would have been a bit older for this- maybe 1.5yo?

Originally Posted by Wisteriacow

I think I was feeling a desire to punish him for being "mean" to me. Totally illogical but now that it's been put into words it's easier for me to ignore that feeling.

Totally understandable. I sometimes feel the same way about ds1, even though I've been "gd'ing" for years! But you're right- it's not really logical, and not very helpful!