New NCSS support thread??

[annemoonstar]

Anyone out there interested in a new NCSS support thread? I'm getting ready to dive in and thought it would be nice to have a support group to do it with!

Here is my situation. I have 9.5 month old DS who has SSTN (i.e. 5 hours) one time when he was 3 months old. We had a blissful period of getting about 3-4 hour chunks for a few months, and then at about 6 months it went to every 45-90 minutes. Now we usually get one 3 hour chunk, but it is before DH and I go to bed, so it doesn't help me much! The rest of the night it's 1-2 hours at a time. We do co-sleep--DS starts the night on a futon next to our bed and comes into bed with us at some point in the night. I nurse him back to sleep every time--mostly because I've just been too tired/lazy to do anything else. But he also kicks and squirms in between wakings so I am getting very little sleep. I"ve tried getting him to sleep all night on the futon, but one time I fell asleep next to him on the futon and woke up in horrible back and neck pain. So I haven't tried again!

We (well, mostly me, but DH goes along with whatever I decide since I do 99% of the nighttime parenting) have decided to give it until DS's first birthday (at the end of March) to see if he will sleep longer in the same room/bed with us. If it's not better by then, then we will transition him out (not CIO, but probably some combo of nightweaning and something else). Neither of us really want to have him in a different room, but something has to change. SO, I'm re-reading NCSS right now and plan to do some charting tonight. I REALLY want to believe that we can continue co-sleeping and still get longer sleep chunks, but I don't really buy it yet! But, I did read NCSS a while ago and have been doing the PPO on a pretty consistent basis--which I think has contributed to our initial 3 hour sleep period. I just haven't been very good at doing it once we are asleep--I fall asleep so easily once he latches back on.

Any one else in the midst of trying? How's it going?

[Leisha]

Hello!
I'm currently re-reading NCSS and hoping to put it into practice very soon...
Our situation: dd is 16 months, co-sleeping and wakes up quite often during the night...
Because of the co-sleeping I haven't ever managed to actually COUNT the amount of times she wakes up (because I don't really wake up fully myself - which is great cause that means I'm relatively well-rested despite all dd's night wakings), but it's every 2 hours or so... at least.

She will sometimes sleep longer stretches, especially towards the morning (usually I can get up, and let her sleep another few hours).

DD won't fall asleep without nursing. She falls asleep while nursing, when she's fully asleep I can unlatch her from the breast. When she wakes up, she cries and I nurse her back to sleep...
When I'm not at home around her bedtime, or my parents babysit, it's a real struggle to get her to sleep (well, so I've heard ). It will literally take hours of her falling asleep in my mothers arms, she tries to put her in her crib, dd starts crying, my mom picks her up again, rocks her to sleep, puts her down, she starts crying, etc etc.


What I would like to do is: teach her to fall asleep on her own, to stay asleep on her own and hopefully to move to her own crib...

edit: oh yeah, lately it's taking reeeeeaally long for her to fall asleep, even with nursing. Maybe it's a phase or something but it can literally take 1-2 hours... I have a feeling she's not tired enough, or maybe she's overtired?? Another thing I'll have to figure out

Anyway I'll have to start with the sleep log things and take it from there I guess... we have a long way to go I think.


Good luck annemoonstart and everyone else trying NCSS

[katmann]

I'm a first time NCSS-er (and first time mom). My ds is almost a year, and we cosleep. He wakes maybe three to five times a night, and I nurse him back to sleep. I got NCSS in early December, started reading it, and did a day and night of sleep logs. But then we went away for the holidays and his schedule got all screwed up.

We had got him to the point where we could put him down in his crib for his two daily naps, on a pretty regular schedule (morning nap around 9:30 or 10, afternoon nap around 2). Then I would nurse him to sleep at night as usual.

We've been home for two days and he has yet to take a nap in his crib. Today he took two thirty minute naps, which is way less than what he needs. And tonight he wouldn't go down without a fight. So we're back to square one. Hopefully by the end of the week he'll be somewhat readjusted. DH and I like cosleeping, and we're not in a hurry to get him out of our bed. But getting him down without nursing would be nice for me (then DH could do it once in a while), and I'd also like to wake less at night to nurse.

Glad someone started this thread! It will make me try to get back into the book.

[annemoonstar]

Well, it's nice to know that we are in good company starting out on this journey. We too have had some adjustment after the holidays. I went back to work on Monday and the last two nights have been rough getting DS to sleep and stay asleep before we come to bed. Since it's not really been "typical" the last couple nights, I didn't do the logs. My sister is with him during the day and DH works from home, but DS doesn't nap as well for either of them as he does for me, so that throws everything off too.

I've been trying to be very consistent about doing the PPO to try to get him to fall completely asleep without nursing down. Before the holidays we had gotten to a point where he was actually rolling over and going to sleep as soon as he sensed my hand coming close to his mouth/my nipple. But the last few nights he has started whining when I start the process and cries if I actually follow through. So I re insert and we start over. The other thing he does is role over like he is going to go to sleep, but then push up and sit up! Then he falls over on me and whines to nurse!! So again, we start over.

I haven't let him fall completely asleep nursing at the inital bedtime though and eventually he gives up the fight. But during the night is a different story. I've tried to consciously remove my nipple before I fall back asleep, but it doesn't always happen. I guess I'm sending him mixed messages??

Good news--last night I was on hold with the at&t about setting up my new phone when DS woke up. DH went upstairs and was able to get him back to sleep without me intervening! This is major for us because usually Daddy has had NO sleep association for DS. I'm thinking I may try to get DH to do this if DS wakes up between his bedtime and ours.

I am having some conflicts about doing this now. Over the holidays I was totally on board to get things to change. Over the holidays I was feeling empowered by the success of the PPO and the solid three hours of sleep DS was getting prior to us going to bed. But now that I am back at work I know that he is missing me and uses our night time snuggling and nursing to re-connect. On the other hand, the irregular sleeping is much more stressful for me when I am working than when I am on vacation!

We are also getting a new bed--hopefully tomorrow which will give us more room and may make the sleeping thing a bit easier. So I think I may wait to log until we've gotten a week of our regular schedule under our belt and we are in the new bed. In the meantime DH is getting more involved!!

[nanamar]

Good idea. I just started reading the book for the first time, so I am not much help, but will love feedback and advice.
My DD is 7 mo and still nursing every 1 1/2 hr - 2hr. I can handle it now, but next week I'm back at school and it can get tough, KWIM...

[Leisha]

How's everyone doing?? this topic has dropped wayy down, lol.

I've been doing the PPO and it actually seems to work... a few nights ago, dd woke up (in the big bed; i had gotten up again after nursing her to sleep - with PPO - cause it was not my bedtime yet :P ) and I went in to the room and as I was laying down next to her, she just closed her eyes and drifted off back to sleep!! No nursing involved

Anyway, I have given up on trying to get her to sleep in the crib. She HATES it, starts screaming when I try to put her in it (even to play). I think it is because they do CIO at daycare... (even though they say she only cries a little bit...)

So we've bought a single matress and put it on the floor in dd's room (which she's never slept in before, lol) and last night I slept on the matress with her. I'll do that a few nights and when she's comfortable in the room and used to the new surroundings, I might try going to my own bedroom again.


Anyway dd's sick now so I'm putting the sleep plan on hold a little bit, I just want her to be comfortable right now...

Ok, I hope you all are doing well too

[annemoonstar]

Thanks Leisha for checking in!
We've put everything on hold lately because first DS was sick, and now I am So I haven't done the logs or really been very consistent with the PPO. He had started to anticipate the PPO and push my hand away or cry. Then he would be more aroused and it was taking twice as long to get him to sleep and it seemed like he was waking up more frequently. It could just be a coincidence though I suppose. Anyway, I also posted another thread regarding just feeling conflicted about whether or not to make a change. Someone suggested I look at the "Bed timing" book, which suggests that the 8-11 month old time frame is really bad for making any changes. SO, I'm now just trying to get through the next month or so by doing whatever we can to get more sleep. I'm giving it until May (when the semester is over) and then I plan to nightwean unless our sleep patterns are significantly different. In the meantime, I do plan to continue trying some things from NCSS in hopes of improving the situation!

I hope that people keep sharing their experiences with NCSS here. I'd love to hear how it's working (or not) for those of you will slightly older babies!

[wrenb]

I just bought NCSS and the No Cry Nap Solution on Monday afternoon. My 8 1/2 mo son was coming off of a 2 week stretch where he'd only nap on my lap, latched on, so I was feeling in need of some help! We're also starting, this evening, a routine where once a week a friend is watching him in the evening while we play D&D with her husband and some friends. I'm hoping to establish a bedtime routine so that she can put him to bed instead of me having to leave game (in my dining room, so it's not too inconvenient) to do it.

I declared this to be Nap Week and I've been working on Danny's naps. Morning nap has no routine and he rarely sleeps more than an hour. I'm not sure how to change that, as he can either sleep at home for less than an hour or at my office where there can be excitement and sunshine but he can sleep longer. I don't feel like I can take half an hour to settle him down for sleep.

Afternoon naps are going better. On Monday I did the Pantley Dance and got him transferred to his crib for a 2 hour nap. I was ecstatic! On Tuesday he napped from about 12:30-1:30 which made it harder to decide when he might want to sleep again. He fought it but I finally nursed him down in the cosleeper around 3:30 and he slept for 2 hours. Today is Wednesday. Danny did not sleep this morning for longer than 20 minutes, latched on and actively nursing. I nursed him down in place by 2:30. An hour later he was crying but instead of getting him up I just gave him my other boob. He's still asleep 40 minutes later, but I'm very leary -- I'm not sure how long he'll sleep.

It seems like a large part of our challenge is that I usually nurse Danny to sleep. When he wakes up he's not sure how to go back to sleep. Time to read up on that.

[bam]

Hello,

I'm trying to go CLW, but I'm wavering because I am finally at the end of the rope with nighttime nursing/comfort sucking. Thus far, I have put no restrictions on nursing/comfort sucking. My DS is 27 months old. I don't care about the daytime including nap time; he is so busy usually that he forgets to nurse unless he gets upset in some way.

Nap time nursing, he won't skip since that's how he goes to sleep and so is it at night; so whenever he awakes at night which can be every 1 1/2 hour sometimes average he comes for me -- we co-sleep; his crib is safely attached to my side of the bed for unrestricted access.

I've tried one time before around 18 months to wean him at night and failed miserably... teething has been a big part on my holding back and even now I'm wondering if I shouldn't wait until his 2 yo molars show up since I expect him to regress again and nurse more. Illness can be another setback. However, I have decided that I will do the gently unlatching as Pantley describe it, the keyword which we already have and last night I had moderate success... it took 2 hours to get back to sleep when he woke but NO crying which is what's important to me. The other times I was too pooped and nursed him, but did the removal as soon as he slowed down or fluttered and he turned over. So did I and put myself a bit further. The other thing is that, being 27 months old, I can talk to him and expect to be understood; whether he complies is another story... just like any other person all you can do is make your case

I expect this method to take several months and have made my peace with that. Although I may contribute to his waking by being close, I'm not ready to move him. I was reading about the negative effect moving a child to his own bed in his own room before he is ready and don't like that. So one thing at a time which is easier on everyone anyway. He'll be soon enough going off to college so trying to be in the moment as much as possible and not push too hard.

I'm still trying to finish reading NCSS and rereading since I keep forgetting things.

ETA: What does PPO stand for?

[rzberrymom]

Having been nearly driven insane by NCSS with my first DD (nothing would work, which made me even more frantic and hysterical than the actual lack of sleep ), my two bits of support would be:

1) ignore the part where she says something like you need to work on putting your child down for naps or you'll have a 2 year old who still has to nap on you. She says it with such certainty, and it caused such trepidation for me about my mama instincts! Because of that book, I kept desperately trying to put my DD down for naps, but she would only sleep for 10 minutes or so and then be a mess. Just like many babies, my DD NEEDED to be worn in a carrier or in arms for most of her naps (and I knew that but the book made me doubt myself), and those needs subsided naturally. And WAY before she was two years old.

2) If the charting and nightime note-taking are making you batty, take a break and step back. I often found myself spending more time in the night looking at the clock and frantically wondering why she had only slept 60 or 90 minutes that stretch. I remember someone on here saying that sometimes the best thing to do is to get rid of the clock from the room and just concentrate on how you feel in the morning.

[bam]

Sounds like you struggled with a few things. Thanks for sharing.

Pantley might say to put down and also says that the important thing is that the baby gets its sleep ultimately so do what you have to do including nurse and in your case wear the child; although I can't imagine carrying my 25+ lb child for a nap! You must be super fit

Personally, I'm not even charting since I'm not in a hurry to get there and make just a few notes about how he is doing. Pantley also says to only chart every 10 days minimum after the initial charting or indeed you'll drive yourself batty.

Still tired from the night here... As Pantley says, you'll get less sleep b4 you get more... when she's right, she's right

[betsyj]

My son is 21 mos and we are on day three of no nursing at night. We (well really me) did a combo of the NCSS PPO method and Jay Gordon and it has worked well.

We do co-sleep mostly but have started a whole new routine that is really working well. Daddy gets Jack in his pj's while I clean and tidy downstairs. Then I come up, read "Guess How Much I Love You" twice (), nurse him and then set him in his crib. He gets sad and Daddy takes over and rocks him to sleep. We have found this to be a gentle way of teaching him to not have to nurse to sleep. He stays in his crib until he wakes (midnight usually) and then comes into bed with us.

We do not nurse after 8 pm. The first night was very rough-he cried in his Daddy's arms for an hour and I felt miserable. But, the wheels were coming off the car so to speak so we had to nightwean for all our sanity.

Last night was amazingly great. While he still woke up several times, it was very easy to lay a hand on him and he went back to sleep. One time he did sit up and ask for nana's. I offered water which he emphatically rejected and again asked for nana's. I reminded him that the nana's were night night and that Jack needed to be night night too. He laid down and went back to sleep.

[bam]

What's PPO? Anyone?

[betsyj]

Pantley Pull Off-remove your nipple before baby falls asleep.

[veganfox]

Hello everyone. First time mom and first time trying NCSS so I'll keep checking in to see how it is working for all the babies and mamas. My DS is 8 months old and although used to sleep for 3-4 hour stretches, for the past 2 months (at least), started waking up every hour to nurse. It was driving my crazy but after reading NCSS I feel more confident and I have re-evaluated my feelings towards sleeping time. I think I feel better cause at least I have an idea of what I want to do and how to do it.

I'm following the plan as close as I can, and hopefully I'll see some progress. I managed with the PPO to put him in his crib half-asleep and he just drifted to sleep on his own for the past 3 nights. Hopefully it will get even better with time.

(We do part-time co-sleeping. He is in his crib through the day when napping, and then for the first part of his night-time sleep, usually until midnight or a little later)

I found the sleep-logs helpful, as they made me realise what I was doing wrong (eg. not providing a quiet and dim environment as it gets closer to sleepy-time).

[bam]

We're having a setback here; everyone has a cold. Still doing PPO meanwhile, but getting little sleep if any due to the fact that he can't breathe though his nose from the cold. We'll probably be back in the saddle in a week or so.

Thanks for the reply btw I always thought PPO was intrinsic to NCSS and not separate. I'm with it now

[sky_and_lavender]

Intro & Bedtime Routine

Yay! I was hoping there would be a thread like this here.

I was really lucky and bought the NCSS and Nap Solution when my daughter was about a month old, so I got the benefit of following all the newborn suggestions, like doing the PPO and not nursing every time she stirs a little, as well as just following her lead on her need for sleep (and nursing). I've never been able to get her nap on her own, though. She barely naps.

Now she is almost five months old, and we're had an occasional 8 hour in a row night of sleep, but the predictable nightly 5-6 hours that started when she was 2.5 months old is all gone! The past few weeks, I've been really tired.

Do you all have a predictable bedtime for your LO? We just started trying to figure out her natural bedtime, and it seems to be around 7:30pm, sometimes later, sometimes earlier. What is your bedtime routine? What do you do if your baby freaks out mid-bedtime routine?

Our bedtime routine:
[dim lights, turn on humidifier and nighttime music, straighten bed]
chill and cuddle in bed for a few minutes
take off clothes and give a quick massage
put on night diaper and sleeping clothes, put saline drops in nose
read a few books
[lights out]
nurse (and do PPO if necessary)
hold baby while she falls asleep, then ease her onto her place in bed;
if she is still fussy, bounce or cuddle until she sleeps

My husband and I are interchangeable for all the steps (one night a week he feeds her expressed milk in a bottle while I go to class). It can take literally hours to get her to sleep and to allow us to put down onto the bed, so we do 1 hour shifts.

[veganfox]

DS got his sleeping schedule all messed up when he turned 5 months and now he is almost 8 and we are starting to see some progress. ( I do believe all the developmental milestones they are working towards around 6 months keep them awake at night. I know DS had issues with teething, and then he was awaking to try to sit up or crawl. So funny to watch him trying to crawl with his eyes still closed )

We've been doing the NCSS for 4 days now and we've already seen some progress. I think it made a big difference the fact that we established a pre-sleep ritual _which we didn't have before. An hour before his bedtime (around 6.30 or 7.00 depending on how tired he is and when he took his last nap), we start dimming the lights, we play calming music and I nurse him for a little bit in the living room just to calm him down and make him sleepy. Then we move to his room, we put his pajamas on, we brush his teeth, sometimes we read and then lights out. I nurse him in the glider for a while and I do PPO so he doesn't fall asleep on my boob. The first 3 days he fell asleep while I was rocking him in the glider using shhhh sounds. Tonight we managed to put him in the crib half-asleep and I kept my hands on him for a few minutes and sure enough, he fell asleep on his own!
Now we'll see how long he's going to sleep tonight. I'm so ready for a change.

[bam]

Hi S&L,

We follow our son's lead when it comes to bed time. We're flexible since it depends on the days activities, on his nap and on mom and dad's schedule as well sometimes. We've found that DS likes to go to sleep between 8pm and 10pm. We usually start the routine around 6:30pm with clean-up toys in the living room (we don't have a space for a playroom in our small home), we dim lights, we give him a bath which is more playtime than anything else, we go back down and watch a low key movie like Pooh the Bear (yep I know some of you will cringe and I would love to do other things, but hey, this is what worked for us without a fight since he won't sit still for books yet and thus defeating the purpose of low key since he goes for his toys again) then PJ and rediaper for the night depending on his sleepiness and finally nurse in bed, PPO, and night night.

Unfortunately, at this stage, on-demand, I can't express, I wish. If I'm not there in the evening, DH has to wait until DS is practically comatose to put him to bed and there is not drama which goes to say that he nurses b/c it's available. However, I don't want to do a radical removal of nursing at night and use Pantley's method to avoid giving him a sense of rejection.

If DS "freaks out" in the middle of the routine, we try to figure out what made him tick and make adjustments. Forcing anything on him defeats the purpose of the low key routine, so we roll with it. HTH

Originally Posted by sky_and_lavender

Do you all have a predictable bedtime for your LO? We just started trying to figure out her natural bedtime, and it seems to be around 7:30pm, sometimes later, sometimes earlier. What is your bedtime routine? What do you do if your baby freaks out mid-bedtime routine?

[bam]

Hi VF,

Those milestones are an on-going process; teething, growth spurts, and developmental like crawling, walking, talking, etc. will throw things off. As I was saying to S&L, one has to roll with the punches and be flexible. We are at 27 months here and still feel the impact of it anytime they happen.


---

As for us, the cold is subsiding so PPO is working fine; he turns around and ignores me. He even pushed me off the co-sleeper last night Being 27 months old, I have the edge that I can talk to him and explain what I'm doing and why. I have registered less feeding at night, 3 times instead of 6 to 8. It's actually nice. I also suspect that his 2 yo molars are pushing through a bit b/c the other day he had his hand in his mouth and was complaining. It looks like another set back, but as I've already said, I realize it will take months and remind myself of it constantly.

It's our only child, not by choice, so we feel blessed. I recognize that I have needs, but in the long run, I'll look back and hopefully will feel good about how I've handled things, i.e. no crying.

Have some of you read the last page of the NCSS book about the Baseball Babies?