Why won't he listen?!

[slsurface]

I'll try not to make this too long, but I have to give a little background. DS is now 3. He was a "colicky" baby, had bad GERD (still does), delayed verbal skills but great gross motor skills, extreme tantrums starting around 2yo, poor sleeper since day-one, defiant behavior at preschool with teachers and at home with DH and I (I think that is the major stuff). He has a tentative diagnosis of SPD - sensory seeking, but we go for a full eval in two weeks.

DH (who is the calmest person on the planet) and I are both at our wits-end about the defiance and non-listening. I don't know if it's SPD-related or something else entirely. He is amazingly stubborn and if he doesn't want to do something he will fly into a rage about it. He is often violent with me, DH, and his teachers when he is asked to comply with simple, everyday things. When he gets mad, he shuts down verbally. He will refuse to talk and will just grunt or scream (even though he has pretty good verbal skills now). Sometimes he will hit, scratch, and bit too. His tantrums were worse a few months ago, we have made progress...but it's hit and miss and I don't know what actually improves the situation or if it is just a fluke.

An example of his behavior, not the best example, but one that happens every day:
EVERY morning, he wakes up at 5am. DH and I have repeatedly asked him to play quietly in his room when he gets up and it's still dark outside. He has a light that he can turn on and has lots of toys/book to stay busy in his room. But instead, he runs into our room, jumps on us and turns on lights. When we ask him to go back to his room to let us sleep, he yells and rages at us. DH has tried to impress upon him that his behavior is hurtful and selfish - that mommy especially needs more sleep. Sometimes he will go to his room, where he will proceed to tear everything off the shelves and totally trash the place. He will yell at the cat and hurt him. He will open and slam doors repeatedly - occasionally even breaking the door knobs. This sort of behavior will continue until we both get up. It is sooo tiring. I'm am loosing a lot of much needed sleep. When we try to reason with him or ask him nicely and provide rewards, it doesn't work. When we try to impose punishments/consequences for not listening (such as taking a favorite toy) he still won't listen or back down. Time-outs don't work with him - just leads to escalation.

Is this related to SPD or something else? It's seems somehow related to poor impulse control, but I don't understand why he refuses to listen to reason. How do I discuss this sort of thing with the OT/Ped? Help please!

[julianito]

Not much time here, but two basic thoughts.

One is that he sounds a bit like my son at that age in terms of strong gross motor, delayed language, a good understanding of some things, but no concept of others and their limits. So you might find that his low compliance is developmentally based. My son has autism spectrum disorder. there are online symptom checklists you can do to see if this is a concern.

On the other hand, in the example you give, you might have expectations that are not age appropriate. None of the four year olds I know can play by themselves without waking Mama and Papa and checking in when they get up in the morning. And he might rage in response because he doesn't have the language to tell you how scared or insecure he feels being awake and not seeing or being near you. One possibility we tried to get more sleep with our 5am riser was to put the easel and crayons and some coloring books in our room. Then we gave him a choice: he color on wake up, or snuggle quietly in our bed.

[jnet24]

I have been meaning to post a reply here for a a few days now, but my own needy 3 year old hasn't allowed me anytime Your ds sounds just like mine except the GERD. So I know what you are going through.

My first thought is that it is alot to expect him to stay and play by himself till you get up. My DS can't manage playing alone in the same room that I am in for even 15- 20 minutes. I couldn't imagine trying to make him stay in his own room playing for an extended amount of time.

Also I think he may be stuck in the routine that Mommy and Daddy get up with me, and when you don't he truly can't handle it. My son gets set into certain routines and has a really hard time if you try deviate from them. My husband and I take turns getting up with our DS. At first he got upset bc we were not both getting up, but DH just lovingly helped him through the transition and now he understands how the mornings work: Mommy or Daddy get up with me. It was hard at first but I think it is good for him to learn things change, sometimes you don't get a blue cup or breadsticks with your pizza and that it is okay.

Also with his language delay, my DS gets frustrated bc he thinks you don't understand what he is saying. That has a lot do do with my DS stubborness. He will repeat himself over and over again, even though I have repeated it back to him. He just isn't sure if I really get it.

Also Ttime outs do not work with DS nor does reasoning or trying to explain someone else POV. He does not understand what selfish and hurtful even mean, most typical 3 yr olds wouldn't either. We try to be very short and direct for example if he sits his sister we have him stop, get on his level, he has to look at us, and we calmly state hitting is not okay. You need to stop. and then move on. When he is really upset, like hitting, throwing things, and scratching, I do not try to talk to him about the problem until he has calmed down. I will try to get him to take deep breathes with me, give him tight hugs, his pacifier helps, and remind him I understand that he is upset and that he is okay and we will talk about when he is calm. This helps being him down from a meltdown.

I think alot has to do with SPD. Many of kids with SPD cannot regulate their own emotions. In the mist of a meltdown, my DS needs a ton of support or it continues for hours. Good luck.

[LynnS6]

It sounds really frustrating for you right now.

Funny, I've been meaning to post to your thread for a couple of days and am just now getting around to it!

I would assume that he doesn't listen because he can't. Now, that doesn't help the sleep deprivation, but it might change how you respond and your level of frustration.

First, his SPD means that he needs the sensory input (he sounds sensory seeking, am I right?), especially after not receiving it all night. Second, he's 3. Three year olds have iffy impulse control at best. I remember posting on MDC in utter frustration when dd was 3 and I was sick. She could not keep from bursting into my room and waking me up, even though I was sick and really needed sleep and even though my husband was in the living room. She's typically developing, and very empathetic child. She didn't deliberately want to make me feel worse. But at 3, she just couldn't keep from bursting into my room.

For your morning early waking example, I would just assume that one of us needed to get up with him. You might consider taking turns with your dh. (That's what dh and I do for the things that we find hard.) Make it so that he gets up early 2 mornings and you get up early 2 mornings (or alternate weeks). I find the 2 on-2 off schedule works better for us than alternating days. You might also consider room darkening shades and a weighted blanket.

For the not using language when he's upset - again, he probably can't. He's overwhelmed with emotion, and language isn't his strong suit right now. Many 2-3 year olds can't use language when they're upset. I distinctly remember when our very very verbal child was finally able to do this about 3 - and her language is advanced. She was sitting at the top of the stairs screaming, and for the first time, it was actual words that made sense.

Why won't he listen to reason? Because he's 3. Three year olds are not rational humans yet. Remember, this is an age where typically developing kids will play hide-n-seek by hiding their eyes, not realizing that if you can see their body you can still see them. They're also experiential learners. Words don't make as much sense to them as actions or physically experiencing something. If they're inside and you ask them to put a coat on because it's cold outside, they may well say "no". Not out of sheer defiance (although it feels that way), but because they're not cold right now. If you take the coat with you and step outside, they may then recognize that they need one.

Developmentally speaking, 3 year olds also aren't ready for reward/punishment kinds of systems either. They can't plan far enough ahead. So, if you do rewards, they must be immediate. For example, when ds was potty training at 3 1/2, his reward for trying the potty had to be immediate. A sticker chart building up for something later didn't work. When he was 5 1/2, and I was trying to get him to wipe himself (rather than having us do it), then a sticker chart worked wonders. (If he got 7 stickers, he got a bus ride - his obsession at the time.)

I would highly recommend 2 books:
Parenting with Purpose by Linda (Lynda?) Madison - it's a really nice book with discipline ideas for kids 4 and under, and it does a really nice job of explaining what's age appropriate and what's not. I know that your son is 3, but because of his language issues, you may need to implement some of the stuff for 2 and for 3 year olds.

Sensational Kids by Lucy Jane Miller - there are specific ideas at the end of each chapter on things to do for kids with different kinds of SPD.

[slsurface]

Thanks to those who took the time to reply ...I had nearly given up on this thread. I wanted to add that part of my morning-time frustration is that before the time change (several months ago!) DS was playing by himself in his room before DH and I got up. It was really awesome and allowed us both an extra and much needed 1.5 hour of sleep. I don't expect him to stay busy for an hour or something, but just a few minutes so that we can wake up with out being bombarded, yk?

The problem is, DH does usually get up with him every morning. But unfortunately, when DH goes in the shower, DS comes in and jumps on me and tries to wake me. Normally, I would be getting up too, but this pregnancy is really hard on me and I am slower to wake and need more sleep. There is the added problem that DH doesn't want to deal with DS in the morning and will often not make him breakfast because he is in a rush and insists that "mommy will do it". So I don't get to wake slowly or even get dressed in peace....this is more a problem with DH and I than with DS, but it's compounding the morning issue.

The impulse control problems are probably the most challenging for us as parents. On a daily basis DS gets overexcited, which leads to destructive or violent behavior and eventually meltdowns. The meltdowns use =d to last hours, but have gotten to a point where they are 15 minutes or less (thank goodness!). Another aspect of this is his obstinate behavior and stubbornness. He frequently refuses to do basic things, like get dressed, use the potty, etc...when we are out at the store, he constantly runs away from me or acts out, refusing to listen to me or DH - I've been working with him on this for many months and it was starting to get better, but he has relapsed and is even worse than before! (sigh)

I appreciate any suggestions on strategies for helping him slow down a little and listen - key into us, yk. He is just so good a tuning us out and his impluses get him in trouble! I have read Sensational Kids, The Out of Sync Kid (and Out of Sync Kid Has Fun) and none of these books really deal with listening skills.