I'm tired of negotiating

[Barefoot~Baker]

My kids have been getting on my last nerve with this lately. Everything lately is an argument or negotiation. (Talking about my dds here, ages 6 & 4).

I tell them to do something, but they have better ideas about what they should do. Example -

I'm cooking dinner, and they are just getting in my way, etc. I tell them to go in the living room or the playroom. They say "well, I can just sit here" or "I'll stay here and be quiet" - sounds like a solution if they would actually do what they're suggesting. It goes on and on until I have to threaten time-outs, give time-outs, and shout. Oh, and they negotiate time-outs as well.

This happens with EVERYTHING I tell them to do. They negotiate and argue constantly and it's driving me up a wall. I just want them to listen to me. I feel like they are walking all over me, like THEY are the ones in control.

Help!!!

[mamazee]

I don't have any complete ideas to help, but I do have a starting point, maybe. It doesn't seem like you mind negotiation. What you mind is them not following through with their side of it. If they said, "I'll just sit here" and then just sat there, it sounds like you'd be fine, but they aren't really negotiating so much as trying to distract you or something along those lines.

So I guess the starting poing might involve something like, "You told me that last time but then you didn't actually just sit there. If you'd sat there last time like you said you would, I'd be fine with you sitting there now. But you didn't follow through and now I can't trust that you'll just sit there this time. I have a hard time cooking when you're walking around in the kitchen, and on top of that, it's dangerous. I need there to be no movement but my own while I'm cooking."

Of course, that puts you back where you started, which is why it isn't a complete solution. Still, I think it accurately labels what's happening and that might help them understand specifically what is bothering you. Also, negotiation is a valuable tool, and if they would actually do it and follow through, it might make your life easier.

[RomanGoddess]

Sign on door of kitchen:

KITCHEN CLOSED. No entry except to those cooking dinner or setting the table.

Period. That's the rule. Rulebreakers get chores (setting the table, doing the dishes afterwards). No negotiation. Serial rulebreakers get no dinner, the natural consequence of having disturbed mom so much that she was unable to make the dinner for enough people.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by RomanGoddess

Serial rulebreakers get no dinner, the natural consequence of having disturbed mom so much that she was unable to make the dinner for enough people.

That would only be a natural consequence if there actually were no dinner cooked and nobody got to eat.

[Barefoot~Baker]

Thanks.

That was one example - this happens 99% of the time when I tell them to do something - clean up, get dressed, take medicine, put the crayon on the table (that will turn into, "well I'll just put it here") and on and on.

[joanna0707]

How about getting them involved in cooking?
4 and 6 yo can do a lot, they can wash vegetables, cut vegetables etc.

[RomanGoddess]

Originally Posted by mamazee

That would only be a natural consequence if there actually were no dinner cooked and nobody got to eat.

This is also an option. One person fails to cooperate - everyone suffers.

[HollyBearsMom]

Originally Posted by joanna0707

How about getting them involved in cooking?
4 and 6 yo can do a lot, they can wash vegetables, cut vegetables etc.

That's what I do. If you are in the kitchen you are helping cook. My now 8 year old is amazing in the kitchen and actually enjoys cooking.

[RomanGoddess]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Turner

Thanks.

That was one example - this happens 99% of the time when I tell them to do something - clean up, get dressed, take medicine, put the crayon on the table (that will turn into, "well I'll just put it here") and on and on.

For cleaning up disaster zones, I think most kids really do need help. They don't know where to start. Yesterday, my daughter had friends over and her room was turned upside down. Afterwards, she was almost in tears when I told her that it had to be tidied. We tidied it together. I gave her directions - first the trainset. Put all those pieces in the box. I'll deal with the playmobil. Etc.

When kids really just don't want to cooperate (and it's not because they really do need your help), I think the natural or logical consequences are appropriate. You don't feeling like helping me out with supper (in an age appropriate manner of course)? Ok, I don't really feel like making supper then. You don't want to pick up that pencil? Ok, I'll pick it up, but now it's mine, because it's obvious to me that you don't care enough about it to take good care of it.

No warnings, no negotiating. Just apply the consequences. And no conceding afterwards (e.g. once you take the crayon or whatever, it is gone. They don't get it back because now they have decided that they will pick their crayons up.)

[Smithie]

"This happens with EVERYTHING I tell them to do. They negotiate and argue constantly and it's driving me up a wall. I just want them to listen to me. I feel like they are walking all over me, like THEY are the ones in control."

I have an almost-6 ds and an almost-4 dd. I feel your pain.

I do a lot of what I call "order of the universe" setup to try and get the things that are most important to me accomplished without endless debate. We don't go downstairs to breakfast until everybody is dressed. We don't have lunch/watch TV until lessons are complete. We don't go upstairs for bathtime until the playroom is picked up. Etc. As far as they know, we do things this way because God told us to.

I have been known to drop the hammer pretty hard on occasion when I give an explicit instruction and it's ignored. Taking the item under debate and throwing it away, leaving a fun public venue, etc. Continuing to argue/whine when the adult has stated that their decision is made is a big no-no in this house. I don't think it's gentle or respectful or consensual or what-have-you to raise a child who is not CAPABLE of obedience when the situation calls for it. But every time I can find a workaround that minimizes such debate, it always works so much better than any form of enforced compliance or silence.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by RomanGoddess

When kids really just don't want to cooperate (and it's not because they really do need your help), I think the natural or logical consequences are appropriate. You don't feeling like helping me out with supper (in an age appropriate manner of course)? Ok, I don't really feel like making supper then. You don't want to pick up that pencil? Ok, I'll pick it up, but now it's mine, because it's obvious to me that you don't care enough about it to take good care of it.

I don't consider this gentle discipline. To me it sounds mean spirited and like it would promote a tit for tat environment.

To the original poster - I think you need to think about where you are willing to negotiate and to spell that out. What is negotiable. It is probably needs to be more than you want and less than they want - compromise. I would work on teaching problem solving skills and in making plans ahead of time to address ongoing problems. Identify problems - "you want attention, I want to get dinner on the table, what can we do?"

[denimtiger]

It sounds like you are open to a resonable amount of negotiation, but that your children don't know where the boundary to that is. It's okay to set a boundary when you need one, even if it's just for your own sanity.

Just because you'd be okay with their end of the bargain if they sat still in the kitchen doesn't mean you have to feel guilty for not wanting them in the kitchen at all. It's okay to request a few minutes of space and simply tell them "this is not up for negotiation, please leave." Then (nicely, but firmly) ignore all of the pleading and negotiation. All of the reasons why don't need to be explained until they accept an answer. You can just repeat "this is not up for negotiation. Go play in the living room." Become a broken record. If they don't leave, you can give a choice, "either you leave on your own by the time I count to ten and go play, or I will remove you to time out." Don't get into the arguments.

Sometimes, it's okay to be in control and get your needs met. They don't have to agree with everything or be happy about every single thing 100% of the time. They don't have to acknowledge that they understand all of the reasons. They're quite intelligent. They know why, they just don't agree.

[bobandjess99]

You feel like they're in control because they are. And it sounds like that is not working for you. As has been said, you need to figure out your preferred style of family, your chosen method of discipline, and then stick to it.
Here, negotiation is compeltely unacceptable. It's considered a form of "talking back", which is not permitted. We are a much more authoritarian discipline style than many on this board though. Once you figure out what style/type/level of dicipline you want to enforce, then it would be easier to help give you tips as to how to go about implementing your plan.

[sapphire_chan]

For topics that occur again and again, I'd cut them cold. "No, this isn't a choice, you need to move. Now."

Then talk to them about it later. E.g. for the dinner prep hassles, at dinner you could talk about how it makes you stressed to have them in the kitchen when you cook and ask for suggestions on how things could be improved. They might come up with ideas like you put chairs by the kitchen door and they can sit there and watch, or one kid sets the table and the other kid acts as your sous-chef and does stuff like throwing away veggie peelings and wipes up spills with a cloth, or even without tasks they just take it in turns to be with you in the kitchen, maybe with a timer for 5 minute intervals. Who knows, but whatever it is, if they come up with it, they'll be happier with the solution.

And then you can say "we agreed XYZ".

Basically since in the moment negotiations are not desirable for you, but you do want your kids to have a say when something bothers them, move the negotiations so they happen in advance and then have your kids stick to the joint decision.

[bobandjess99]

Oh good Sapphirechan, I knew I was forgetting something.
We use that line a lot "this isn't a choice".
Now, i am all for giving children choices, sometimes, for some things. But I also firmly believe they need to learn they do not ALWAYS get a choice (I realize some people disagree, and thats fine, but here, kids do NOT always get a choice)

[artgoddess]

Just want to pipe in and say that this is completely age appropriate. I am going through this in spades. I try keep that in mind as often as possible. That my 6 year old is testing the limits of his autonomy. I'd love to have you think that I am always calm and rational with my children, but that wouldn't be the truth. Last night as a matter of fact I lost it, literally threw my hands in the air, walked away and yelled to myself, "F#@k, just once I'd like to suggest teeth brushing and PJs without an argument." Sadly my outburst shocked my kid into submission and he headed straight for the bathroom to brush his teeth.

Like previous posters, I try and allow some negotiating, but I do have to set boundaries. If someone promises to put toys away after supper, then I remind them as soon as they leave the table. If they start to go for something else to play with instead I give a firm, "Um no way, you cannot get another toy out until all the blocks are picked up. You said you would do it after dinner, and dinner is over, now pick up the blocks."

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

Last night as a matter of fact I lost it, literally threw my hands in the air, walked away and yelled to myself, "F#@k, just once I'd like to suggest teeth brushing and PJs without an argument."

Now see, *that* was a natural consequence.

[skreader]

Originally Posted by denimtiger

Sometimes, it's okay to be in control and get your needs met. They don't have to agree with everything or be happy about every single thing 100% of the time. They don't have to acknowledge that they understand all of the reasons. They're quite intelligent. They know why, they just don't agree.

More than sometimes, I think *most* of the time in terms of having kids cooperate in day-to-day living routines.

[AntoninBeGonin]

It's the age . My five year old son is the exact same way. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is just note their objection, and either tell them that they've made a good point and you'll try their way this time, or that you understand their objection and things still have to be done your way.

Also, you could try letting them in a bit more in the making of decisions, instead of them having to argue after the decision is made. For example, say it's getting close to bedtime. Instead of saying "You're going up to bed in 10 minutes" try something like "It's close to bedtime. How many reasonable minutes do you need to finish up what you're doing?" and then let them give you 15 or less, or whatever. After they say that though, it's final, so no "just one more minute" over and over. There's nothing that can't be saved until the next day.

I think the bright side of all this is that the arguing shows cognitive growth. Our kids are starting to realize that they do have their own lives to consider. I don't always drop everything to get into bed right on time, even though I should. (Did great last night though, I was only 12 minutes late for bed! ) They are also starting to see even more that they are completely separate people from us. Soon they'll stop thinking we can see through walls and read their minds. Oh well, that was fun while it lasted.

[Materfamilias]

It really does seem like sitting down as a family and discussing behavior and consequences might be a good idea. And one of the things you could discuss is what's going to happen when anyone in the family says s/he is going to do something and then doesn't follow through. Then, you impose the consequence but it's the one everyone knew was coming.