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Help me find this info

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
A long time ago I followed a link that was posted on this site. It was pictures, and maybe a short video on the sexual function of foreskin. I have found all the links that describe it in words, but the photos/video were more powerful, and my DH probably won't read everything I send him.

We are both finishing medical school, so though I refused to perform one, I had to observe a certain # to get credit. He has performed some, so the procedure facts alone are not enough.

I sent him this link yesterday: http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/what-happens/
But he said it did not apply because our child is half African, and it was only for Americans. He said in Africa (where DH still has family and we will be visiting), our son will shower outside, swim naked with his friends in natural springs, and will need the "hygiene" plus all his friends will be circed.

Help. I have until May.
post #2 of 13
I think your looking for the Sex as Nature Intended it website. Just google it.
post #3 of 13
It's still baloney no matter what your child's heritage is. Fitting in swimming in the springs doesn't make any more sense than fitting in in the locker room -- plus, what part of Africa are we talking about? A place where girls are circumcised? How would your dh feel about cutting a baby girl to fit in?

Here is a site based on papers published in the British Journal of Urology:

http://research.cirp.org

and here is a site with a video on the prepuce put together by doctors:

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org
post #4 of 13
My dh went swimming in the summer with his male cousins and one of them was intact. It wasnt a big deal at all to dh or to any of the other boys.

I would tell him that he needs more than that to make you do cosmetic surgery on your ds and put your foot down and dont let it happen.
post #5 of 13
No offense but your husband's argument is ridiculous. One hundred years ago, most people in the U.S. took a bath once a week, and somehow no one experienced foreskin issues. Remember, circumcision began in the U.S. not for hygienic concerns but as a way to "cure" masturbation. The hygiene argument came along only later and has been thoroughly debunked. If you are going to circumcise because of hygiene, for example, due to frequent trips to places where sanitation or clean water may be limited, then you better circumcise any daughters you may have because they are bound to have far more problems. The fact of the matter is that we are mainly composed of bacteria, and our hygiene obsession is more of a testament to societal norms than necessarily good health. After all, historically, humans have lived in filth; however, no records to my knowledge exist of people dying because of penile funk. I don't know which part of Africa you are coming from, but circumcisions are mainly performed there for religious or "coming of age" ceremonies. Whatever the case may be, I categorize both types as unexcusable blood rituals. In many places in Africa, they don't circumcise, and frankly most young kids don't notice either way, no matter what country you are in. I think it's time to tell your husband to stop making excuses. As a medical professional, he should know better or take the time at least to educate himself, both for the sake of his son and profession.

PS: A real cause for concern for many Westerners who travel to Africa and stay there for long periods of time is catching all sorts of diseases, Maralia for example, which have been virtually eradicated in the developed world. Frankly, I would be much more worried about something like that than your son's foreskin. I forgot to mention ethics in my post. Again, as a medical professional, your husband is bound by certain ethical duties, which should be thoroughly examined when considering the circumcision issue. This part can't be stressed enough.
post #6 of 13
post #7 of 13
You both may be interested to read these genital integrity position statements which are thoroughly documented and include a lot of material not included in the AAP or other American circumcision position statements - like accurate info on intact penile development, conservative treatments for problems of the intact penis, the sexual functions of the intact penis, plus ethics and human rights issues.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...tatement0.html
http://www.icgi.org/Downloads/ICGIoverview.pdf

I'm so glad to hear that you, as a medical professional, have learned about the harm and lack of medical necessity of circumcision and the value of the foreskin, and have taken an ethical stand about not doing them. Please, please use your voice as a medical professional to speak out against circumcision whether here or in Africa.

Good luck with the rest of your training!

Gillian, RN
post #8 of 13
Thread Starter 
He is from Liberia. In high school he had sex with a girl who had been cut, but that is more in the very rural population. He is totally against that, but fails to see the comparison.

He got even more ridiculous at dinner. I was explaining the gliding motion of foreskin and sex being better for him. He said well, how would he even use condoms? None of that would work, and so he may not use them................WTF?!

Thanks for the links I think that is what I was looking for.

ETA: he was raised catholic and was circ'ed at birth as was his whole family.
post #9 of 13
He might then be interested in the Catholic church position regarding circumcision. I don't have a link but if you google you should find lots. My husband is intact because circumcision never took hold in many heavily catholic areas in French Canada, particularly because of the churches stance and the fact that many of the french priests were European.

Oh and yes you can use a condom when intact. No problems there.

I think you need to focus on your child's bodily integrity and human rights. Focusing on the sexual aspects is only going to make him defensive.
post #10 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by hscottie View Post
A long time ago I followed a link that was posted on this site. It was pictures, and maybe a short video on the sexual function of foreskin. I have found all the links that describe it in words, but the photos/video were more powerful, and my DH probably won't read everything I send him.

We are both finishing medical school, so though I refused to perform one, I had to observe a certain # to get credit. He has performed some, so the procedure facts alone are not enough.

I sent him this link yesterday: http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/what-happens/
But he said it did not apply because our child is half African, and it was only for Americans. He said in Africa (where DH still has family and we will be visiting), our son will shower outside, swim naked with his friends in natural springs, and will need the "hygiene" plus all his friends will be circed.

Help. I have until May.
Hehe, would he then circ his daughters if you went to a place where that was the norm?

Hygiene is not an issue since the foreskin is self-cleaning.

There is a great video on youtube with an animation of a penis and good discussion of the sexual function. I can send it to you if you want.
post #11 of 13
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the links and pm's. He doesn't think it is a human rights issue. I told him that there are risks to the procedure and showed him the skin bridges and other problems boys have had. I told him all it took was for them to mix up plain lidocaine with lidocaine with epinephrine and his penis will become necrotic. His actually said, I don't think we should use lidocaine because of the risk of the anesthetic. I said he will be in shock from the pain to which my husband said that is the body's naural defense and he won't remember.

He is impossible. I showed him those sexual pics, and the one with the marker that shows how far the foreskin goes down the shaft. He said, I'll call (step mom) to ask why she had (his brother) circ'ed. I said why don't you call your uncle and ask him why he kept his sons intact? He said, "they live in England." But saying he will talk to others is progress.
post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by hscottie View Post
Thanks for the links and pm's. He doesn't think it is a human rights issue. I told him that there are risks to the procedure and showed him the skin bridges and other problems boys have had. I told him all it took was for them to mix up plain lidocaine with lidocaine with epinephrine and his penis will become necrotic. His actually said, I don't think we should use lidocaine because of the risk of the anesthetic. I said he will be in shock from the pain to which my husband said that is the body's naural defense and he won't remember.

He is impossible. I showed him those sexual pics, and the one with the marker that shows how far the foreskin goes down the shaft. He said, I'll call (step mom) to ask why she had (his brother) circ'ed. I said why don't you call your uncle and ask him why he kept his sons intact? He said, "they live in England." But saying he will talk to others is progress.
is he circ'd? if so, you read this:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

sus
post #13 of 13
Here are your arguments:

Human Rights:
If you take your child to the doctor and ask the doctor to amputate healthy tissue, by law the doctor can NOT. It is a written violation of bodily integrity to remove healthy tissue from a non-consenting minor. This is true for every single inch of a child's body, except a male foreskin. Why should a male foreskin be exempt from the law that protects every other part of a child's body? What makes a boy's foreskin the exception? It is composed of the same tissues found in a girl's foreskin, though it has a great deal more function. You couldn't even have a doctor pluck a fingernail from your child, unless there were a problem that failed to be corrected with more conservative treatment. When it comes to the bodies of children our nation and pretty much the entire world has text that states nothing can be removed surgically unless there is a problem that can not be resolved in a more conservative manor. This is what sets circumcision apart from parental choice. Circumcision is genital surgery and when done routinely it removes perfectly healthy tissue from a minor boy. You want to tell me that it should be up to parents, then you have to change all the laws to say that parents can request ANY non-therapeutic surgery on any part of a child's body. Boy would that be a trip! The medical profession is much to blame. They are violating the terms of their own oath that they took, to do no harm. Circumcision is harmful. We are also responsible because, by continuing circumcision, we are not upholding our own laws that were put in place to protect the bodies of innocent minors. Cosmetic surgery to healthy parts of a minor is a human rights violation, as we consider every human being to have this intrinsic right to bodily integrity. Not only would I consider it to be a human rights violation but I also consider it to violate the equal protection clause of our constitution that states ALL persons shall receive equal protection under the laws (clearly this is not happening).

(I must correct something I said. I said that a minor (male) foreskin is the only exception where parents get to alter their child's body. There was recently a case that went to court where a father wanted to circumcise his 14 year old son. The judge found in favor of the boy, who did not want to be circumcised. So based on that ruling we now have a precedent set. The precedent gives any boy age 14 or older the right to decide over the appearance and function of his sex organ. You can't remove the foreskin of a boy 14 or older without his consent. So the exception really only applies to male foreskins where the owner is under age 14. It is pretty darn sad that a 9 year old or even a newborn doesn't have the same rights to his penis as a 14 year old.)

Pain and not remembering:
Every person who has recollection of their circumcision describes it as a "sexual torture". When the baby's penis is first touched by the doctor he will get an erection. The sensation of the cold sterilizing liquid will send sensations to the brain. This initial manipulation is thought to simulate the pleasure sensors and immediately following these sensors are overwhelmed with excruciating pain. This is thought to leave a lasting psychosexual imprint on a man. Many infants pass into a form of nuerogenic shock. If you speak with survivors of major animal attacks they will describe this rush of adrenaline as they pass into shock. This rise in adrenaline is recorded during infant circumcisions. Also, a measurement of cortisol levels in the brain of circumcised babies is much higher even 6 months post-op. However, the pain is really irrelevant. Even if it were painless circumcision would still be removing healthy, functional tissue from a minor boy. The pain (or lack there of) does not change the fact of WHAT circumcision is, an amputation of healthy, functional tissue.

Your partners statements about not using any anesthetic and not remembering are bone-chilling. Harm is harm. It doesn't matter if you do it when someone is too little to remember, it will forever imprint the mind and it is still harm.

Medical arguments:
With no other body part do we use amputative surgery as preventative medicine. Any potential medical benefits of circumcision that you can list can be treated in a less conservative manner than amputation. In fact, the only situations in which amputation is a first chosen treatment option are in the case of malignancy, gangrene, frostbite or serious trauma. Remember that with ALL body parts there are potential things that can go wrong. This is no more true for the foreskin than the ears, eyes, toes, etc. In fact medical ethics states that "amputation is not an ethical treatment UNLESS more conservative treatment has proven unsuccessful". There are studies showing the potential health benefits of female circumcision, such as reduction in HIV transmission. We don't entertain the idea of these findings simply because there are less severe manners in which to avoid HIV without sacrificing genital tissue. So if you want to take your child to the doctor to have something removed: 1. there must be a medical need and 2. more conservative treatment must have failed. In short, the same treatments that are used for woman's genitals can be used for men.

I might add that no medical organization in the entire world recommends RIC. This should speak to the relevance of any "studies" which try to demonstrate medical benefits of circumcision. Each organization has made a statement to the tune of, "the potential benefits do not outweigh the risks of the surgery and guaranteed consequences". I use the term studies loosely b/c you can pretty much trace all of these studies throughout history to a key circ-fetishist and all of them have been proven invalid by followup studies. This is why it is not uncommon to hear the phrase, "Circumcision is a solution in search of a disease".

If after all that you still can not get through to him then you will just have to put your foot down and be the momma bear. As mothers we have a duty to use our instincts and to protect our children from harm.
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