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WWYD with this situation?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
I do not want to do time outs as punishments. Now we do it as an invitation to take a break or we let them sit down with us. Reading UP, dh and I know not to take it serious when our children say, "I don't like you" because we've had to do something they didn't want to do. We often give them as many decisions unless it's something that just needs to be done, then later we give them an extra allowance on something else in their control, just as Kohn suggested. This works out well for all of us.

That being said, wwyd when you have to explain a limit you've placed to your child and they say something very harsh? Today, for example, I am taking my Algebra final. It's due today and it's 66 questions of pure agony. Dh is helping me, because he's a math genius. We have given the children everything they need to keep themselves busy, and explained to them that we are in the middle of trying to finish the quiz so that we can have time for them. Dd is fine and keeping herself relatively occupied, with only a few questions that dh or I can answer without losing concentration. But ds, who I know is 4 so it's a bit harder, isn't wanting to listen. When he tried to use one of his toys to smash my laptop, I removed it from him and told him that hitting the laptop could break it and that would make me very sad and upset. He looked at me and said, "mommy, I'm going to kill you. You need to die." He then raised his hand as though to hit me and continued to say he was going to kill me.

Dh, stood up and took him into his room, telling him his words are hurtful and mean. Not what family says to family ever and that until he can figure out other ways to express his frustration, he needs to stay in his room.

Do you ladies think this was a good approach? He's in the room crying now, after dh brought him back out and he said it again, thus was placed back in the room.

Any suggestions for this kind of situation?
post #2 of 18
Have you told him what he can say instead to express his feelings without being hurtful to you?
post #3 of 18
Since he's four and exploring the power of angry words is definitely age-appropriate, i there anyway to do a Playful Parenting maneuver to let him do that experimentation without using words that trigger your true anger?
post #4 of 18
Really, he knows he can come out anytime, he's just not allowed to say hurtful things to the family, so he has a choice between saying the hurtful things and being with you guys. While it's a structured choice, he does have full control over the choice.
post #5 of 18
Oh! And do your best! May you have the knowledge you need to succeed and may there be no trick questions!
post #6 of 18
Oh, and if you are open to violent play, maybe for this specific situation he and dh could go outside and chase each other hither and thither?
post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 
He did finally come out. We leave it as a choice for him to come out whenever he's ready, he just didn't at that moment. When he did, I was actually walking the dog and he thought I had disappeared.

Dh told him if he killed me, I wouldn't be around anymore. So he actually thought it happened and when I came back in he grabbed me crying and said he didn't mean to say mean things.

I wish we could take the kids out, but it's feeling in the teens outside right now and they think they'll become snowmen its so cold.

I didn't realize that his words were age appropiate. I don't remember my dd saying stuff like this when she was his age, but it goes to show that every child is different.
post #8 of 18
Near as I can tell, from observing 3 boys at that age from drastically different families and hearing about lots more, human males are wired to join the hunt by age 6 and the attitudes to cope with that start earlier. Girls have the same energy levels, but don't seem to need the same amount of adrenalin rushes in order to keep their heads straight.

Really though, the very aggressive "I'm going to kill you, you need to die" language was probably coming from not fully grasping what dying means. My guess is that you're going to need to do some reassuring as far as how words hurt feelings but not bodies and your permanence and such, but his freak out today as he's grasping what "kill" and "die" really mean will put an end to that sort of talking.

He was thinking of it as a very serious thing to happen to someone without getting all the consequences of that happening. It was really "I want you to hurt badly because I'm upset". Which means, too, that you may see a transition to "I want to hit you" or kick or something like that. If you can manage it, maybe try doing a really hammed-up "oh no!! and then you'll dump me in the ocean with SHARKS!!! And they'll nibble my belly! Like this.. om nom nom nom" and scoop him and burble his tummy.

The happiest boy 4-8 I've known was my little brother who got a TON of physical play. Next was a friend's child who did best on days with tae kwon do class. The third kid gave less stress to his mom after she had him go outside and move when ever he was too much for her and now that winter's coming he's starting basketball in a week and just looking forward to that has helped him handle being stuck at home.
post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 
I wish we could do all of that. Next fall they start more regular activities. Going outside here without me watching (on the third floor apartment) is a no go. We have a child sex offender in the building next to ours.

As I mentioned, today there is no activity that we could do for him that was physical as it was my final. It took me 7 hours to finish. I'm doing online college and math is not my best subject. Today was the day of the test and not doing it meant failing.

Usually we are very physical with him, as he is a sensory seeking child, but today there was no way. He does undestand death as we have several pets and one died recently. He found him actually and said, "mommy, he's dead!" He knows death and what happens when someone/something dies.

But I do like that playful method. If he could just understand, or if I knew how to make him understand, that my work is very important for all of us it would be easier. But he doesn't and I feel bad about the fact that I'm in school. I've even considered quitting because it bothers him so much when I have papers, assignments and finals.

Is it just one of those issues where he'll have to deal until he can understand?
post #10 of 18
I think the severity of his words reflected the severity of the stress he was feeling, from you being stressed about your test.

I would discuss it later, when you're all nice and connected and the stress is over - that is the time to talk about language and how it affects people. In the moment, I think he needed to be removed from the stress as much as possible, not as punishment, but to help him, and ideally for his dad to stay with him and connect with him to meet the need that was likely not being met at that time.
post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LianneM View Post
I think the severity of his words reflected the severity of the stress he was feeling, from you being stressed about your test.

I would discuss it later, when you're all nice and connected and the stress is over - that is the time to talk about language and how it affects people. In the moment, I think he needed to be removed from the stress as much as possible, not as punishment, but to help him, and ideally for his dad to stay with him and connect with him to meet the need that was likely not being met at that time.
Dh came back to me because I'm awful at math. He has helped me throughout the course and if I had been allowed to do it on my own, I would have failed. Though it's strange. This is the second math class and he was perfectly fine during last math's final. I was equally as stressed and dh helped me as well.

Luckily this is the last math so I should be fine with the other classes. I did talk to him and I told him as much as I would have loved to play with him, school is always important for everyone, even mommies. I explained that as much as I respect him, I would like a little in return when it's something important to me.

He nodded and said okay, so we'll see.
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by unschoolinmom View Post
As I mentioned, today there is no activity that we could do for him that was physical as it was my final. It took me 7 hours to finish. I'm doing online college and math is not my best subject. Today was the day of the test and not doing it meant failing.

Is it just one of those issues where he'll have to deal until he can understand?
Oh dear. Sorry, I had switched to a general discussion of what I've observed as typical behavior in that age boy.

nvm, the ideas only work if your dh can focus totally on the kids
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by unschoolinmom View Post
Dh came back to me because I'm awful at math. He has helped me throughout the course and if I had been allowed to do it on my own, I would have failed. Though it's strange. This is the second math class and he was perfectly fine during last math's final. I was equally as stressed and dh helped me as well.
Drat. That makes it a lot harder. Any chance at all that there's someone who'd be willing to babysit the kids all day? Maybe a friend who'd do a trade in exchange for you taking their kids for a sleep over on another weekend or something?
post #14 of 18
I totally understand it sounds so, so stressful for you. Sometimes there are things like that that you just have to get through and then come back together to reconnect as a family.

I just wanted to help you see a possible explanation for his feelings, and in the moment where emotion takes over, there is no amount of explanation or logic that can even get through. It happens to us as adults too, and maybe was part of it for you - his words struck an emotional chord with you that caused you to feel so upset about it (it's scary to have someone tell you they want to kill you, and it's scary to hear your child say words like that) which would have made it harder for you to think clearly and logically about things.

I hope the stress is behind you all for now and you can all reconnect
post #15 of 18
This is interesting. It just came up with my 6 yr old boy today. I was doing something he didn't like and without explaining the whole story to you, suffice it to say he was punching me on the arm. The lower arm--the part where the bone is nearer the surface. That is, OUCH.

Now, anger reactions are a problem in our family. I don't want to be an angry, power-based, conflict-based family (like the one I grew up in). So today I "went all Gandhi on him" as I've come to call it. I kept my gaze directly on his eyes, and my face gentle and searching....I had made up my mind not to retaliate angrily (as there has been too much of that lately), and yet I was not about to let go of the calculator either (he was trying to grab it from me because he didn't want me to do a certain calculation). So I held onto the calculator and never left his gaze, and my face never got angry. Sad, yes, but angry no. He punched and punched and at one point it was really wierd.....my totally natural reaction took over. I started to cry. I put my head down and sobbed "someone I love is beating me." Which is really true and also true to my heart, because I had been hit by my dad when little, and from when I was 9 or so until my son came along, I had not been hit by anyone (that's 41 years of not being hit).

The MINUTE I started to cry, he stopped hitting me and went into hyper-consolation mode, and started crying himself. Big crocodile tears. He begged me to stop crying, and then the most amazing thing happened....he started to use a technique that his kung fu teacher taught him when the kids hurt themselves and cry. He said "mama....look up.....ok, now breathe deep....ok, now calm your mind". I allowed him to calm me (inside I was thinking WOW). Then he went over to the calculator and pushed an imaginary button which would allow me to continue my original calculation which had started the whole thing. Then I said "ok, now I am hungry and I am going to make toast." He leaped up and said "I will make it for you! What do you want on it?" (this does not happen in real life. this was a direct result of him wanting to make it up to me). I happily enjoyed the toast, telling him that it tasted extra good because it had that extra ingredient of love in it. :-)

And afterward, he said "I am going to have toast too." So I jumped up and said "would you like me to make it for YOU now?" He said "Yes,....we are helping each other out." Then I said OK, now I need to get the mail. "I'll get it, Mama." (this from a kid who stalls and balks when I ask) Soon the boots and coat were on (another miracle) and he was out retrieving the mail.

Bottom line....my refusing to act out of my anger-script....my getting to the REAL emotion of what it's like to be hit, he was able to see the REAL result of what hitting is (he has never been hit like that, so he really doesn't know the effect, or how it feels). And once he saw how much it hurt me, he was truly sorry.

I think this relates to the discussion because like when they use "I hate you" or "I want to kill you"....I agree that it is expressing frustration or anger, and they really don't "get" what these words REALLY mean.

I don't want my words to come across wishy washy....my hope is that my son will cease hitting because he knows that it hurts someone. If I react angrily and with punishment, it perpetuates the war/fighting/power dynamic with no end in sight. It has never worked thus far. We both have hair triggers when it comes to anger, so punishing will not make the hitting go away. But we are both very empathetic. I think this will work.

My son is a kind and gentle boy so I think that armed with this insight into how using violence really hurts Mama, I fully expect the behavior to diminish, whereas if I kept up the conflict through use of my parental power, he would never learn it.

I may be wrong. But I don't think so. Teaching him another way usually means teaching myself another way.
post #16 of 18
I'm OK with 'timeouts' for antisocial behavior. You didn't send him there as punishment, you sent him there because he was being dangerous around your computer and not letting you get your final done.

Sometimes my kids do need to be separated in order to regain composure. I disagree with Kohn on this. Not everyone can recover through interaction. If I'm really mad and someone keeps pushing me and talking to me, it doesn't calm me down, it makes me madder. If I'm allowed to separate myself and chill out, I can calm down.

Now at 4 or 5, I didn't have the skills to separate myself, and so I needed to be sent to my room. Some of us (me included!) need to separate, cool down and then reconnect.

However, in the future, I wouldn't try to do my final around my child. Since you clearly needed your husband's help to do the final, I would have found a sitter or asked a friend to take him for the afternoon. I don't know many 4 year olds who can really entertain themselves for the amount of time a final takes! Even watching a movie only entertained my kids for about 45 minutes at that age.
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I'm just glad it's over and I still passed. He was happy about that. What ended up happening was I promised him (before he went to sleep) that I would show him a funny surprise in the morning and spend extra time with him.

This morning he saw the surprise (dyed my hair purple) and spent time with him. I told him I did a good job on my final and he said he was proud of me. I wish I had a sitter, but we're alone in that retrospect. Luckily, math is DONE! So I'm no longer stressed out.

Thank you all for the supportive words and good advice.
post #18 of 18
It sounds to me like you acted appropriately in the moment. He was saying hurtful words, he was asked to stop, he didn't, so he was removed from the room. Later, you talked to him about what the words he was saying actually MEANT, and you're giving him extra attention now that the "period of intense focus that excluded him" has passed.

I'd talk to him about language and expressing feelings in not hurtful ways. Whenever a small child says "I hate you" (or any of its variations), they really mean "i'm angry at you right now." Teach him to say "I'm angry" or "I'm angry and bored and lonely" instead.
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