daycare put DS in time out.

[jessa810]

My DS is 29 months old and has been in this daycare room since September. There are 12 2-yr olds and 2 teachers. The lead teacher and I don't always get along, and I explained to her when he entered that room that I did not do timeouts with him but instead would either count to 3 (I rarely get to 3) and/or redirect and always discuss with him whatever is going on that needs the redirection. She wasn't impressed by my answer but also said she would go along with that.

This morning I found out that she put him in time out last week for the first time. I was livid. She said that he took another child's toy (which is also unusual behavior for DS) and he wouldn't return it. She tried reasoning with him but she said he got "defiant" and was screaming no and backed himself into a corner. She then put him in time out. I have no idea for how long since she just said "not long" but wouldn't commit to an actual length of time. I made it very clear that I was unhappy and reiterated that I do not do timeouts and he was not to be put into timeout again. She asked what I did in lieu of timeouts and I feel like my answer was insufficient as I just kinda reason with him. I don't have a set plan.

I'm looking for concrete alternatives that would work in a mainstream daycare setting.

Also, some backstory: DS is just learning how to use the potty and his dad and I have been separated for 10 months so the little guy has been through quite a bit lately.

Thanks in advance for your guidance!!

[hollytheteacher]

First of all that sounds like terrible ratios for teachers to kids for two year olds! At my school we have 5 to 6 teachers on the floor for 20 kids and only 5 of them are two year olds but i digress...

All I can say is I wouldn't send my kid there...lol I know that is SO not helpful. What is this teacher's background? When you first decided to send your child their did they explain they way they "discipline"? At our school if a child takes a toy away we talk to both children, explain that the child needs to give it back and ask if they can use it when child A is done. If they refuse to talk or give it back we say "okay I am going to help you give it to A and then you need to find another activity...want to paint?" At which point they usually drop the toy or we (as gently as possible) take it from their hand and give it back to the other child, then take child B and help them get involved in something else...we def would not make them sit in time-out!!

I would talk to the director and make sure that that wouldn't happen again or i'd be pulling out my kid!

[moondiapers]

It's important to find a school with a discipline policy you agree with....because they can't have different rules and consequences for each child, they HAVE to treat everyone the same.

[AntoninBeGonin]

I worked as a daycare teacher, in every classroom, but mostly in infants and twos. I remember that infants were four kids to a teacher. The two year olds had an even higher ratio, so I think that's actually an "ok" ratio. Well, not really okay but there's no way to have one-to-one at a daycare. I never once gave a kid of any age timeout when I was a teacher. Some teachers do though. Unfortunately, some people just aren't comfortable handling that many kids without the backup threat of punitive punishment. In their minds, it must work. But, at the same time, you'd already talked to her about your household rules and she agreed to follow them. I'd be livid, too. I think the best course of action is to talk about your concerns to the daycare manager, owner, coordinator, who ever it is who runs the main office. No one wants to lose a client. Maybe explain to the owner just how much easier it is to simply redirect than it is to waste energy trying to punish a little baby. Everyone knows that the teacher spent more time trying to get him to stay in his time-out corner for 2 whole minutes* than she would have spent just carrying him over to a different toy and helping him start a new game.

*I'm basing that on my experience around other teachers. The general time-out rule is 1 minute per age, but often if the kid gets up before time is up, then their time-out will start over. Two minutes for a two year old can easily turn into five or more minutes. That's so much time wasted where the kid can play and interact, and the teacher can take care of things much more important than "dealing with " a little kid who just hasn't quite grasped the fact that them playing in a toy five minutes ago doesn't mean it's theirs to take whenever they want. (Does anyone ever seriously think about how difficult a concept sharing really is to small kids? )

[Harmony08]

I have to agree with some of the PPs. If you can find another daycare I would switch. The biggest problem seems to be that the relationship between you and his teacher is not open and honest and respectful. I am shocked that it took her a week to tell you about the timeout. I was a daycare teacher for 2 year old children. I have to say that from what I have seen 1:6 for 2s is a pretty good ratio ( I don't actually think it is acceptable but it is as good as it gets most times. It is also the licensing law in lots of places). The hard thing about time outs is group child care is that sometimes when a child is being extremely physically aggressive you have no choice but remove them from the other children in order to protect the other kids. You can still try to keep an adult with them, though.

This situation, however, taking someone's toy????? What a ridiculous thing to "punish" a 2 year old for. I do not agree with this teacher's approach to development or discipline. If you can't leave this school (and even if you can) I recommend taking some articles about the damaging nature of timeout to the school's director. It has also been my experience that when parents push hard enough, things can start to change. That said, this teacher is not going to like you very much...it seems that she already does not.

Good luck. I am so sorry this is happening to you. I wish ECED was better. Sad.

[One_Girl]

Did you find out what the center's discipline plan was or did you just assume that they would change the rules for you? If the discipline plan says they don't use time out then I suggest you bring this to the director. If the plan does allow for time-outs then I think you should find a center that fits your discipline ideas better. Even in centers that don't practice time-out, the teachers can still have students sit down and take a break when they are uncooperative and they can have them continue to take a break until they are cooperative again.

If your child is screaming and out of control, even on rare occasions, he will probably be separated from the whole group until he is calm again no matter where you put him. I don't think the time-out was about the toy, I think it was about the screaming meltdown your son had. I have to say though that 1:6 is an awesome teacher to child ratio for this age. It is much better than the NAEYC suggestion of 1:10. In our state 1:6 is what they allow for infant rooms and 1:12 for toddler rooms, it is very unlikely that you will find another center with such low ratios and one that doesn't practice some form of time out whether they call it that or not.

[ASusan]

We're currently dealing with inappropriate time-outs in daycare for DS, who is 27 months old. The ratio you have is a good ratio, and is the same one we have, although our center just got additional funding for a 1:4 ratio in the toddler room.

In your situation, at a minimum, I would ask for a one-minute-per-year limit on time out. This is the standard and accepted recommendation for daycare providers and parents who do a version of time-out.

I would also ask the teacher what situation(s) lead up to the incident(s) which result in a time-out. Then, work with her to change that situation. In our case, we've determined that DS needs more physical activity, and we're pushing our center to give them more than the 1-hour-per-day recommended minimum that they're currently at. For snatching toys, maybe there needs to be more xxx (whatever toy was wanted). Maybe they need to practice turn-taking and giving up toys. Maybe they need to work on "using their words." Maybe they need to work on having control over their own body (to stop themselves from snatching) - have them play games like simon says, following directions, singing songs with actions.

BEST case scenario, the teacher can (learn to) predict that toy snatching will occur and starts to intervene/redirect your DS before it starts. For example, A and B are playing with big dinosaurs, "ROAR. Roar." DS is looking on, clearly interested in their play. Teacher should offer DS a dinosaur toy or other big animal and attempt to get him involved. Maybe get on the floor and show A and B how to involve another child in their play. "Let's have our dinosaurs and turtles climb on the mountain like this." OR, she can redirect DS to doing a puzzle or other activity he likes.

[betsyj]

I agree that the ratio is actually good. And frankly, you can't expect someone dealing with six kids to necessarily be able to sit down and reason with yours on why you don't take toys (lost on a toddler anyways) and why we don't then have freak outs about it (totally normal behavior but disrupting none the less).

I love my daycare but there is always going to be some trade off in things they may need to do because of the number of kids they are responsible for. When you have other people watching your kids there is bound to be some differences and I do not consider a timeout be a difference worth dying for.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by moondiapers

It's important to find a school with a discipline policy you agree with....because they can't have different rules and consequences for each child, they HAVE to treat everyone the same.

I agree. The time out wasn't because he took the toy - you said she tried to reason and talk with him FIRST, and then he refused to cooperate and had a meltdown, essentially. At that point, removing him from the group to calm down was in order, for their sake, his sake, and the teacher's sake.

My thoughts on that kind of stuff have always been that you can't expect someone else to discipline just like you do, or love your child and have the same amount of patience just like you do. And if you are leaving your child with someone else, they need to be able to do things their own way to some reasonable extent.

Time out in this situation is not a problem, as far as I'm concerned. But it'll always hurt to hear your child was disciplined, just because it's YOUR child and someone ELSE did the disciplining.

[shesaidboom]

I worked in a toddler room in a daycare and we never used formal time-outs, but in a situation like you explained with your son, if we could not have calmed him down or redirected him to another activity, we would have left him in the corner he backed himself into and told him to come back and play when he was ready (of course keeping an eye on him to make sure he was safe). Most children would re-join the group in less than one minute, and others would sit down and do a quiet activity on their own. Do you think maybe she said something like "you can stay in the corner until you give the toy back" if she couldn't get the toy away from him? I wish she gave you more details about the situation.

6 toddlers to 1 teacher isn't awful. In Ontario we have super strict rules in our daycare act, and our ratio for toddlers is 5 to 1. Our ratio for infants is 3 to 1 adult or 10 to 3 adults, which is probably the best around.

[jessa810]

Thanks so much for your feedback. I think my biggest concerns are that (1) I told her that I didn't do time outs at home and she said she wouldn't do it at daycare either, and (2) although I obviously wasn't there, I agree that taking a toy does not warrant the most severe punishment that the daycare uses. She said she counted to three and tried to "show" him that the other child was sad that DS took the toy and then when he became "defiant" she put him in time out. First of all, I highly doubt he was able to "see" that the other child was upset if he was that upset as well. Also, I am curious as to how exactly she got him out of that corner. I am assuming she grabbed him and got him out - I doubt any amount of coaxing would have worked.

At this point I would love to get him out of there since, as others have commented, the teacher and I do not really get along so much. She basically makes sure they don't cause any physical harm to each other but that's about it. The other teacher(s) (the second teacher often rotates) are the ones who interact with the kids the most . However, since I am in the middle of a nasty divorce and am potentially moving in the near future, I don't want to pull him from here just to place him in another new daycare in 6-12 months.

I find in incredibly difficult to find a non-mainstream daycare in this area (Central PA). Unfortunately, I need to work so daycare is essential.

[shesaidboom]

That is really rough. I am sorry you're going through such a hard situation right now.

From what you've explained, that does sound unreasonable for a two and a half year old. If he had already given the toy back, I would have redirected him to another activity where he could play nicely. I would say something like "So and so is sad because you took his toy, let's give it back and go play with such and such a toy". Forcing him to stand there and understand that the other child is sad is not developmentally appropriate. Regardless, if she had assured you that she would not use time outs with him I would be upset that she had unless it were unavoidable.

I hope you are able to find a daycare you are happier with in the future. I can't speak for PA but I have worked at some "mainstream" daycares that were much more holistic and gentle in their approaches. If you can find a group of like-minded parents you may be able to be steared towards a center like this.

[JL83]

Originally Posted by moondiapers

It's important to find a school with a discipline policy you agree with....because they can't have different rules and consequences for each child, they HAVE to treat everyone the same.

I completely agree. Whether or not a daycare used time-outs was one of my criteria.

Originally Posted by One_Girl

Did you find out what the center's discipline plan was or did you just assume that they would change the rules for you? If the discipline plan says they don't use time out then I suggest you bring this to the director. If the plan does allow for time-outs then I think you should find a center that fits your discipline ideas better. Even in centers that don't practice time-out, the teachers can still have students sit down and take a break when they are uncooperative and they can have them continue to take a break until they are cooperative again.

Yes. With a daycare (or any childcare) you have to pick one which works the best for you. You won't agree with everything they do. All you can do is make sure you agree with the main things they do and that you trust that they will make reasonable choices with the minor things.

Originally Posted by jessa810

Thanks so much for your feedback. I think my biggest concerns are that (1) I told her that I didn't do time outs at home and she said she wouldn't do it at daycare either, and (2) although I obviously wasn't there, I agree that taking a toy does not warrant the most severe punishment that the daycare uses. She said she counted to three and tried to "show" him that the other child was sad that DS took the toy and then when he became "defiant" she put him in time out. First of all, I highly doubt he was able to "see" that the other child was upset if he was that upset as well. Also, I am curious as to how exactly she got him out of that corner. I am assuming she grabbed him and got him out - I doubt any amount of coaxing would have worked.

The daycare we used did not use "punishments" of any sort. There were no time-outs or anything like that.

But they certainly weren't going to let kids get away with things. They did remove children from situations where they weren't able to reason with them.

Isn't that standard? If a kid is too overwhelmed in the middle of a situation, then doesn't it just make sense to remove them and give them a chance to calm down? And with a child that young, you do need to pick them up to move them safely. Would you rather she dragged him by his arm? Of course she doesn't know how long the time-out was. If she did, I would be much more worried, because that would indicate that it wasn't governed by how he responded. My guess is that she moved him to a different area, maybe a time-out chair, or the book corner or something and then gave him some space. Once he calmed down she probably talked to him. I saw that alot at our daycare in the 2 to 3yo room. What will work for you and him won't necessarily work for another caregiver.

[dogretro]

PA state regs are 1:4 for infants, 1:5 for one-yr-olds, and 1:6 for two-yr-olds. It is WAY too few adults per child in any of the three situations. I know, I used to work in a large, nice daycare. 1:6 for twos is WAY WAY too many young kids per adult.

That being said, at our center, we were not allowed to use time-outs and it could often be difficult to keep the room to a dull roar. We were supposed to use "time away" which meant removing the child from the activity and talking to them. It worked pretty well if you were able to do it all the time, but w/ 2 teachers per 10 or 12 kids, it was still difficult. One teacher leaving an activity w/ one misbehaving child left the other teacher to help 11 other kids glue, build, draw, read, whatever. At this point in life, I know I would be better at being a more gentle, understanding teacher, but dealing w/ that many toddlers all day is just HARD.

[MacKinnon]

As a former preschool teacher and center director, I'm sitting here wondering what I would do if a parent insisted that we change our discipline policy. Honestly, I think we would have said, I'm sorry, but we can't do that, we have to be consistent. We did not use timeout, but in a situation like you indicated, when the re-directing, etc. failed to work, and a child became very upset, we would have taken the child over to the other room (empty- used for nap and lunch but connected to the main play space) for time away, to calm down. I'm wondering if this time out wasn't more like that? A break? And would the wording matter to you? Or your DS- if he had a break to get his body under control vs. a timeout? I can see that suggestion working well for a toddler teacher.

It sounds like she is making a real effort to work with you on this, and to figure out how to handle his behavior appropriately in the setting. You cannot expect a child care center with a 1 to 6 ratio to be able to use entirely gentle discipline tactics all the time. Honestly, I think many places wouldn't have made the effort to work with you, if it meant changing their policy and procedures. Is it fair to the other 11 kids who get time outs? Or to your child, whose rules are not consistent with the rest of the class? Why can he push further than Johnny? I do agree that 1 to 6 is not a great toddler ratio, but not terrible given funding of these types of programs. We pay through the teeth for a 1 to 4 ratio program, and even then, there are some days they are higher. Michigan law is 1 to 12 over 2 1/2, 1 to 8 for one to 2 1/2! I do think that, and I may be wrong, you have a teacher who is willing to try to do something different, but has to also work within the confines of the group setting. It sounds like you are all going through a lot right now. Best of luck!

[Harmony08]

Originally Posted by ilovemyavery

As a former preschool teacher and center director, I'm sitting here wondering what I would do if a parent insisted that we change our discipline policy. Honestly, I think we would have said, I'm sorry, but we can't do that, we have to be consistent. We did not use timeout, but in a situation like you indicated, when the re-directing, etc. failed to work, and a child became very upset, we would have taken the child over to the other room (empty- used for nap and lunch but connected to the main play space) for time away, to calm down. I'm wondering if this time out wasn't more like that? A break? And would the wording matter to you? Or your DS- if he had a break to get his body under control vs. a timeout? I can see that suggestion working well for a toddler teacher.

It sounds like she is making a real effort to work with you on this, and to figure out how to handle his behavior appropriately in the setting. You cannot expect a child care center with a 1 to 6 ratio to be able to use entirely gentle discipline tactics all the time. Honestly, I think many places wouldn't have made the effort to work with you, if it meant changing their policy and procedures. Is it fair to the other 11 kids who get time outs? Or to your child, whose rules are not consistent with the rest of the class? Why can he push further than Johnny? I do agree that 1 to 6 is not a great toddler ratio, but not terrible given funding of these types of programs. We pay through the teeth for a 1 to 4 ratio program, and even then, there are some days they are higher. Michigan law is 1 to 12 over 2 1/2, 1 to 8 for one to 2 1/2! I do think that, and I may be wrong, you have a teacher who is willing to try to do something different, but has to also work within the confines of the group setting. It sounds like you are all going through a lot right now. Best of luck!

I have to respectfully disagree here. The lack of communication is a problem here. I can't imagine not informing a parent of an issue like this until a week later. She knew that time outs are an issue for this parent. If this had happened in my class I would have told her asap..this is what happened today....

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by Harmony08

I have to respectfully disagree here. The lack of communication is a problem here. I can't imagine not informing a parent of an issue like this until a week later. She knew that time outs are an issue for this parent. If this had happened in my class I would have told her asap..this is what happened today....

Most of the daycare centers I have worked in and had my child in don't tell parents about little things like a two year old having a tantrum. I can also see a teacher forgetting a conversation with a parent several months ago about how that parent prefers to parent, especially when they have been given the discipline plan and have still chosen to keep the child in the center. I have known several parents who pulled out of the one daycare my dd attended where they did bring small issues to their parents attention because they believed that the teacher's had no knowledge of developmental appropriateness. The center is now working on that. The teacher followed the centers discipline plan and the child doesn't have long term, severe issues with tantrums so there really wasn't any reason to notify the parent.

[jessa810]

Originally Posted by ilovemyavery

It sounds like she is making a real effort to work with you on this, and to figure out how to handle his behavior appropriately in the setting. You cannot expect a child care center with a 1 to 6 ratio to be able to use entirely gentle discipline tactics all the time. Honestly, I think many places wouldn't have made the effort to work with you, if it meant changing their policy and procedures. Is it fair to the other 11 kids who get time outs? Or to your child, whose rules are not consistent with the rest of the class? Why can he push further than Johnny?

Thanks so much for your response, but I also have to respectfully disagree. I'm not asking that the center, or this classroom, entirely change their discipline policies across the board (although that would be lovely). I'm asking that while my child is in care, that he not be given time out. Not that he be allowed to push further than another child, or get away with anything, or not be disciplined at all, but that I do not want for him to be put on a chair or in a room by himself while he's upset. Not only do I disagree with that methodology, but knowing my child, that would make things immeasurably worse. He does not do well by himself when he's upset. Some children do prefer to be alone and have time to collect themselves and he may develop that preference as he gets older, but at 2 1/2 and learning how to use the potty and learning how to navigate time between mom and dad, he prefers to be comforted when upset. His "tantrums" are much shorter lived that way. He is comforted and feels secure and then moves on.

Quite frankly, how the other 11 children are disciplined are between the parents and the center.

As I mentioned before, my concern is that she explicitly agreed to a discipline method that does not include time outs. If that agreement had not been made, I would not be this upset.

[MacKinnon]

I think perhaps, and I am certainly not in your shoes or dealing with this teacher in any way, but as a former preschool teacher and director, I might be seeing this differently. I disagree that how each individual child is disciplined is only between their parents and the center. Child care centers have group rules, to help achieve a cohesive function in the classroom. It would be very difficult to navigate 12 parents sets of rules, of course there are always exceptions, and of course there are times when one child responds better to something else, but it would be very difficult for a teacher to try to manage a classroom with no general discipline policy. When I indicated the teacher seemed willing to work with you, I was reflecting this generality, in most programs I am familiar with, the response to a parent requesting a change in the discipline policy would have ranged from straight out "No, we can't do that." to "We will make every effort to work with you on this, but we have a class of 12 kids to manage, so that might not always be possible." I am honestly surprised your teacher agreed to no time outs for your son, when that is part of the general policy.

Now all that said, I do agree that she should have talked to you about it sooner, as she did agree to this policy, unless there was something else happening at pick-up/drop-off that prevented that conversation. As I'm sure you are aware, pick-up and drop-off is a crazy time, and conversations get missed. It's not uncommon for my sons teachers to inform me of things the next morning, because I tend to drop-off late, and we have time to talk, where in the evening it's controlled chaos with all the kids getting picked up at once, and all the parents getting info on their kids day. Also, for most 2 year olds, one tantrum and short timeout in the general routine of the day would probably not be something that would be reported to the parent, unless it was generally very disruptive or extreme.

I hope things work out for you! I'm not in anyway criticizing your desire to have your son not have time outs, we have found a center that does not include time outs as a general policy, and time away to calm down is with an adult to help calm them (as it was at my center) but away from the general chaos of the classroom and/or the incident/object that caused the upset in the first place. Best of luck in finding a good resolution!

[bebebradford]

Just to throw out another opinion to chew on..
She DID try to reason with him first (which is good right?), but he still wouldn't comply so she had to do something to let him learn his actions were not appropriate. Children only learn from trial and error. I don't think timeout is unreasonable. When my son was 2.5 in daycare they used timeouts, but he never had to be placed there. A teacher could just say no, and he'd stand at attention.. and I think that is because he was so used to my discipline(which uses timeouts). I think timeouts are as far as MAINSTREAM parenting is concerned VERY gentle. No yelling.. no spanking,etc. When I was in kindergarten I had a teacher who would swat all our butts when we did something wrong... now THAT would upset me today being used on my kids. Then again, I loved that teacher..lol.