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Originally Posted by 2xy
 I'm not saying that children are colorblind. I'm sure my boys noticed that people all look different; they just didn't focus on it. It wasn't important to them.
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Originally Posted by orangecanoe
I was trying to make the point as was the NurtureShock chapter/research that children won't naturally place importance on race in the way that adults do, but that does not lessen our responsibility to call attention to it with honest and appropriate information and dialogue. I thought my 5yo not noticing/caring about skin color was a good thing, but I no longer feel that way. It was only a reflection of privilege on our part that skin color never had a reason to be talked about.
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Originally Posted by azdesertrn
Did they change the toy?
I stumbled on this old post and I am not seeing what you all were seeing. Check the link again and tell me if I need to get my eyes checked. I'm hoping the company was responsive to someone's email. |
Definitely looks like they have made changes.....
http://www.imagiplay.com/productsdetail2.php?id=130&name=African%20Safari
The driver is now white and the passengers seem to be African and Asian.
Haha, come on they're trying. I guess its a South African tour driver now 
I never saw the original toy but it sounds like it looked a LOT like some family pictures I have. My grandma and aunt went on safari (one with little impact.. meant to just see animals in their natural habitat without bothering them) both are blond with blue eyes. Their tour guide was a black african. The same tour guide they used for the whole trip and the same guide my aunt used for a couple other trips too.
I understand the issue behind a black tour guide and white passengers for sure, but I also feel like it doesn't have to be seen so negatively or that children will see it as anything other than an African tour guide and a white family. I guess the original toy wouldn't make me angry or anything, I'd just want multiple family/race options.
How is it racist, really? If 1) the definition of racism is "the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races; or discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race"; and 2) it is now common-place in Africa for tour-guides to be black Africans; and 3) it is more common that white people are customers of safari tours; then it is not prejudiced (shouldn't we be glad that Africans are getting these types of jobs which are held in high esteem, considering the training and education it takes?); it does not show how the white people are intrinsically superior to black people (since it is the African is knows all about everything on the safari and is educating the others); it is not discriminatory or abusive (it does not show the white people beating the black person or treating him as a slave or teaching kids that this is the black man's "place"). Ergo, a realistic and non-racist toy, possibly a tool to teach children how black Africans are finally getting what they deserve--high(er) paying jobs, education, etc.
I never saw the original toy but it sounds like it looked a LOT like some family pictures I have. My grandma and aunt went on safari (one with little impact.. meant to just see animals in their natural habitat without bothering them) both are blond with blue eyes. Their tour guide was a black african. The same tour guide they used for the whole trip and the same guide my aunt used for a couple other trips too.
I understand the issue behind a black tour guide and white passengers for sure, but I also feel like it doesn't have to be seen so negatively or that children will see it as anything other than an African tour guide and a white family. I guess the original toy wouldn't make me angry or anything, I'd just want multiple family/race options.
You can see it here...
I'm just saddened by this whole discussion. I'm not seeing a Post Racial society in this discussion. I'm seeing the black man should be happy that he lives in an inequitable society that limits him to certain jobs, revisionist history indicating that slavery in had nothing to do with race because Romans and some Irish people were slaves (In America the majority of SLAVES, not indentured servants were black, and the whole legacy of Jim Crow segregation was in direct response to slavery in America, and there is really no way to say differently), that now the original poster is racist because she "made the assumption" that the man was just a "driver", and that concerns about racism are dismissed because the particular poster can't see the "big deal". Just because you don't "get it" doesn't mean the feelings aren't valid. It reeks of privilege.
I'm sad that the people thinking this have children who are multiracial and they think this way. I wonder if they will dismiss their children's experiences because they don't understand?
The link is broken now but the version on the manfacturer's website is different: http://www.imagiplay.com/productsdetail2.php?id=130&name=African Safari
I'm just saddened by this whole discussion. I'm not seeing a Post Racial society in this discussion. I'm seeing the black man should be happy that he lives in an inequitable society that limits him to certain jobs,
http://books.google.com/books?id=TTf0Aki6AUQC&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=can+black+kenyans+work+in+any+job?&source=bl&ots=k6Rdf6Op4O&sig=U-YY_WkAFqsR8u3-XY39a7NHoiA&hl=en&ei=WFiWTdzgAeXI0QGPzfX5Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false "As in most countries the rule is if an African can be found to do the job there's no need to hire a foreigner."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya 99% of the people in Kenya are of African descent. Ninety-nine percent.
So, tell me again why it'd be a good thing for a white man to be a safari guide???
Also, again looking at Kenya because discussions about Africa as a monolith are belittling to the continent and Kenya happens to have safaris where you can see all the animals that come with the toy, over 60% of Kenya's GDP comes from tourism so if people didn't go on safari there it'd hurt the country badly.
Um, I don't think you should be using the term, lily-white to describe random caucasian people. That's very prejudiced and uncalled for. As far as the African safari tour guide, I have never seen an African safari tour guide that wasn't black. The people that are a part of the safari appear to be Northern European/Scandinavian.
I asked my dd what kind of toy this was, and she said the man driving was a zoologist giving a tour to zoo visitors. I guess the way this toy is perceived, depends on how skewed a person's world view is.
ETA- Lily-white definition-
a member of a lily-white organization, especially a member of a former faction of the Republican party in the
South opposed to the inclusion of blacks in the party or in politicallife in general.
Africa is a huge continent and Kenya is ONE country out of many? How did we determine this man was Kenyan? Is all of Kenya's tourism exclusively dependent on Safaris? I'm not sure how your information applies to this discussion? Even if the man was Kenyan, should this Kenyan man be limited to working tourism? I know many Kenyans, none of them are in tourism, all of them black and given the history of British imperialism in Kenya, does it make it ok for their to be inequity in their society based on outdated imperialism? Seriously? Is this going to be the argument?
http://books.google.com/books?id=TTf0Aki6AUQC&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=can+black+kenyans+work+in+any+job?&source=bl&ots=k6Rdf6Op4O&sig=U-YY_WkAFqsR8u3-XY39a7NHoiA&hl=en&ei=WFiWTdzgAeXI0QGPzfX5Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false "As in most countries the rule is if an African can be found to do the job there's no need to hire a foreigner."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya 99% of the people in Kenya are of African descent. Ninety-nine percent.
So, tell me again why it'd be a good thing for a white man to be a safari guide???
Also, again looking at Kenya because discussions about Africa as a monolith are belittling to the continent and Kenya happens to have safaris where you can see all the animals that come with the toy, over 60% of Kenya's GDP comes from tourism so if people didn't go on safari there it'd hurt the country badly.
How many times have you been to Africa on safari to determine all safari tour guides are black? So are you implying she is angry because she is making up racism in her head? Or you ignoring the actual racism that as existed against people of color for centuries and still continues to this day because it makes you uncomfortable.
I'm beginning to think that Mothering.com really isn't a place for women of color, but rather white women who cannot see the humanity or POV of anyone else because it makes them uncomfortable to address issues of race or their perceived or actual privilege.
I'll be unsubscribing from this thread and leaving mothering.com alone for a while. It's really sad to me that woman cannot see the humanity in each other.
Um, I don't think you should be using the term, lily-white to describe random caucasian people. That's very prejudiced and uncalled for. As far as the African safari tour guide, I have never seen an African safari tour guide that wasn't black. The people that are a part of the safari appear to be Northern European/Scandinavian.
I asked my dd what kind of toy this was, and she said the man driving was a zoologist giving a tour to zoo visitors. I guess the way this toy is perceived, depends on how skewed a person's world view is.
ETA- Lily-white definition-
a member of a lily-white organization, especially a member of a former faction of the Republican party in the
South opposed to the inclusion of blacks in the party or in politicallife in general.
Africa is a huge continent and Kenya is ONE country out of many? How did we determine this man was Kenyan? Is all of Kenya's tourism exclusively dependent on Safaris? I'm not sure how your information applies to this discussion? Even if the man was Kenyan, should this Kenyan man be limited to working tourism? I know many Kenyans, none of them are in tourism, all of them black and given the history of British imperialism in Kenya, does it make it ok for their to be inequity in their society based on outdated imperialism? Seriously? Is this going to be the argument?
I used Kenya as an example, because Africa is a huge continent.
Instead of assuming it must be a racist toy, I decided to take a look at what might be going on in a real country with real safaris and a real population. Education is always better than prejudice.
Uganda, is another country offering lots of safaris, that has the animals pictured in the toy set. They've had an increase in wealth, but also an increase in poverty due to a lack of jobs. If we pretend that it's an Ugandan safari, we've just increased the poverty by giving some foreign white guy a Ugandan's job. But it's okay, right? I mean we can always patronize the guy who lost his job with charity.
There're safaris in other African countries, and I'm sure you could find one where working as a safari guide is a sign of disenfranchisement, but why support that sort of country even in pretend?
Or better yet, we can make the toy take place in a park in the U.S. with captured animals, with a nice safe dependable white American male to drive the truck.
I agree completely with changing the passengers to have multiple races. I think that removing the black driver does not send a positive message.
I think that all opportunities and career paths should be open to all people regardless of race. Why wasn't one of the tourists an African? Since that is the country where the safari was taking place and as stated a large proportion of the population is black. Because they are too poor? That is a huge problem- both the stereo-type and the reality. Tourism is good for economies, but not if all the money is funneled to the already wealthy people in that country. Why should a safari be an option only to foreigners?
I would be equally offended if I saw a toy here with a white driver taking asian tourists into the bush to see kangaroos and other Australian wildlife. Its offensive to the huge non-white Australian population and its offensive to Asian people who come here as tourists. It may be realistic, but its still racial stereo-typing. And its the stereo-typing that bothers me, not the toy. And we can brush it off as being unimportant and probably realistic, but that wont change things for the better in regards to racism. Just because the reality is racial segregation doesn't make it right. In the end, its just a toy, we are not going to march in protest to have it banned. But being aware of the ugly stereotypes we hope to eradicate helps us to move forward to hopefully one day reaching a point where they will no longer exist.
I hope Joates will feel welcome, we are all here because we are trying to have a better world for our children. Its just a slow change unfortunately.....
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