Need help deciding

[Granola Momma]

Hey mommas and poppas,
I need some insight as I decide whether or not to vaccinate my son. He is six months old and, so far, has only received one shot - HIB - when he was 3 months old.

My husband and I decided to only do HIB, PCV and DTaP before he was born. We researched for almost a year, went to workshops, read books, and organized the schedule ourselves. Then, when my son turned 4 months old, we began going to a doctor who is way more anti-vax than any doctor I've ever known. At my son's 4-month visit, doc talked me OUT of PCV. And just yesterday, he pretty much talked me out of DTaP.

Here are his reasons:

1. My son is still exclusively breastfed.
2. He stays home with me. (I'm a SAHM.)
3. We don't have pets.
4. He is my first and only child.
5. He is never in any form of day care or nursery.
6. He doesn't have any regular caregivers other than my husband and me.
7. As of yet, I'm not a part of any play groups for him.

Doctor said his environment is so contained that it's incredibly unlikely that he would get any of these diseases. Basically, his thinking is that the risk of an adverse reaction to the vax is higher than the risk of catching any of those diseases.

I just know a few people who have not vaccinated for pertussis (whooping cough) and their children got it...and it was horrible. Like a 3-month ordeal...and kinda scary. Their circumstances were a little different than ours, but I'm just still concerned about unknowingly coming into contact with a friend or family member who spends a little time with my son and gets him sick with one of these illnesses that could have been prevented.

Any input? Any stories? Any advice? I don't like making decisions out of fear, but I gotta be honest: I'm afraid to vaccinate...and I'm afraid not to.

[nataliachick7]

[QUOTE=Granola Momma;14928013 but I'm just still concerned about unknowingly coming into contact with a friend or family member who spends a little time with my son and gets him sick with one of these illnesses that could have been prevented.

[/QUOTE]

What if you vaccinate and he gets seriously injured from the vaccine? What if he gets brain damage? What if he develops asthma, allergies, any form of a autoimmune disease that would make him suffer the rest of his life? Many babies have died. What do you want to risk? My son would have probably been severely damaged if he received another Dtap injection. (due to the P component)

You are so, so lucky to have a doctor like this. I cannot even express to you how impressed I am. Your doctor understands there are serious, life threatening risks with vaccines. It is incredibly rare to encounter such an honest doctor that is willing to look at the truth.

I would recommend reading Neil Z millers (updated second edition book) as well as Aviva jill romms book... if you havent already. They talk about the diseases individually and will hopefully reassure you. after reading them I am confident that even if my son did come down with one of the vpd's i would be able to treat it effectively, and a strong, healthy, unvaccinated immune system is your best bet.

I hope i didnt offend in any way.

[Emmeline II]

My first child is the type that would put candy in his mouth he found at the ground at the zoo. I took him everywhere, I did not isolate him, and he did not have any vaccines until 4 months and we stopped at 12 months. Even when I took him to the children's museum, where hacking children slobbered all over the exhibits, he did not become ill. I believe he and I had Pertussis when he was 2.5 (and coughed for two weeks) and I was 5 months pregnant, based on my symptoms (I could check off just about every one).

My second child is completely unvaxed and did not have more than the sniffles until she was 2.5; we all caught this horrid cold that took weeks to go away.

I would not risk DTaP on the off chance that my infant would contract it. Whenever they coughed or sniffled I upped my intake of SA. I feel the risk of injury or death to an infant from the vaccine is greater than the risk that they would contract the disease.

[nataliachick7]

I also wanted to add that i did not isolate my ds. Kids need to be exposed to things to build up their immune systems. If they stay isolated they will contract everything once isolation stops. When my son started daycare, he caught several colds the first 6 months, it was annoying yeah, but now, he hasnt been sick for over a year. Before he goes to daycare he gets a mutli, some days extra vit c, he gets 2,000-4,000 iu of vit D, high quality fish oil. He is one of the healthiest toddlers i know of!

[Kailey's mom]

I wish we had your doctor!!!!!!!!!!! I regret having vaccinated my dd at all. We stopped after her 12 month shots. I won't vaccinate my next, if I have another child. You can't undo vaccine injuries

[BaBaBa]

Sounds like you have a great MD!

It's not an easy decision to make. My only advice is to err on the side of omission rather than comission. Examine how you would feel if DS suffered a vaccine related injury against if DS contracted an illness that could have been vaccinated against (and might not have prevented anyhow, and most likely can be treated).

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by BaBaBa

Sounds like you have a great MD!

It's not an easy decision to make. My only advice is to err on the side of omission rather than comission.

While I understand that some VPDs can be treated, sometimes they still can cause lots of misery or serious harm, so automatically erring on the side of omission is fallicious, IMO. You have to apply the "how would you feel if ____?" question to all possible outcomes.

If the OP would feel guilty if her kid had a 3 month case of pertussis, I personally think she should get the DTaP.

Op, here's a synopsis of the best study ever done on what pertussis is usually like in the unvaccinated. (There's a link to the full text at the top, and I recommend reading the whole thing.)

A cough that lasts 3 months is actually somewhat rare, it appears, but far from unheard of.

[nataliachick7]

Originally Posted by mamakay

If the OP would feel guilty if her kid had a 3 month case of pertussis, I personally think she should get the DTaP.

OK, but you also have to consider the fact that Pertussis vaccine is highly reactive.
IMO, you have a higher chance of a vaccine reaction from dtap (encephalitis for example) than you do catching whooping cough.

[Tracy]

Wow, what a terrific ped.

We did not vax. Son is 8 and we live in the second largest city in the united states and we were out an about and not shut in our world. Very much a part of the masses.
D & T are not much of a worry considering in the time you read this paragraph perhaps a 1,000 americans cut themself or poked themselves with something not particularly clean and they will not get tetanus.

Have you been to this thread in resources?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ad.php?t=57794

I guess I was a bit nervous about pertussis when my son was a baby, he was born in July Pertussis season is late summer and fall. But when I heard from one of my doctors (when I asked) how many cases of pertussis do you get and she said about 35 a season and I asked how many are vaxed for it and she said ALL. I thought, "nope"
I do have to say I have a bit of sharp take on P as I know two children who had reactions and are now braindamaged. This was the old P...but it is still disconcerting.

read more and you'll find your way.
hth

[cocoanib]

subbing.
Great info here Mama's

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by nataliachick7

OK, but you also have to consider the fact that Pertussis vaccine is highly reactive.
IMO, you have a higher chance of a vaccine reaction from dtap (encephalitis for example) than you do catching whooping cough.

No, you don't have a higher chance of developing encephalitis from the vax than you do of catching WC. If you don't vax (or even if you do; the vax makes WC cases milder, it doesn't completely prevent WC) your chance of catching WC is 100%. Everybody catches WC every once in a while. It's totally endemic, and neither vax nor natural immunity are for life. The vax just makes the symptoms milder.
And encephalitis from the acellular vax is very rare (if it happens at all.)

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Tracy

I do have to say I have a bit of sharp take on P as I know two children who had reactions and are now braindamaged. This was the old P...but it is still disconcerting.

read more and you'll find your way.
hth

I feel the same way about the whole cell pertussis vax. I know it might have been coincidence, but I had my first seizure the afternoon after I got a pertussis vax, and am epileptic to this day (though it goes in and out of remission). But even the acellular vax makes me twitchy, given my family genetics, even though I know encephalopathies following the accelular vax either don't happen or are too rare to calculate.

[Granola Momma]

Wow...fantastic info, everyone! Thank you all so much for the links, the stories, the input. It's such a tough decision and I'm still gonna do a little more research, but you all have helped me think through some scenarios I wouldn't have on my own.

And, yes, we have an amazing doctor. He's very sensitive to the vax thing and very much in favor of the whole natural and integrated approach.

Thanks again...and, of course, if there are more tidbits you want to send my way, I'm open to the insights.

Peace....

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by mamakay

No, you don't have a higher chance of developing encephalitis from the vax than you do of catching WC. If you don't vax (or even if you do; the vax makes WC cases milder, it doesn't completely prevent WC) your chance of catching WC is 100%. Everybody catches WC every once in a while. It's totally endemic, and neither vax nor natural immunity are for life. The vax just makes the symptoms milder.
And encephalitis from the acellular vax is very rare (if it happens at all.)

To the bolded part.

I remember reading somewhere that the milder symptoms are if you have recently been vaxed (which of course would apply to a recently vaxed baby) but that if you catch whooping cough years after the vax, there is anecdotal evidence that the cough can be harder and last longer. Do you have any info on that?

[Bebegim]

I would love to add an excel file here of the most recent data I have reviewed from the WHO on VPD (vaccine preventable diseases), but i dont see that option. So, I will overview it and post the link to the raw data.

Last night as I was assessing vaccine coverage rates from 1980-2008 I found something that just shocked me. The rate of pertussis since 1980 has been constantly increasing, in absolutely NO relation to the vaccine coverage rates for (DTP/DTaP). Here are some examples:

Pertussis:

1981: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 1,730
1986: Coverage: 97%, Cases: 4,195
1991: Coverage: 69%, Cases: 2,719
1998: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 7405
2003: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 11,647
2004: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 25,827

These are just a few of the over 20 years of data they have. Curiously, the US/CDC failed to report the coverage rates for two of the years with the highest case rates.

To me, worrying about whooping cough is real. But thinking the vaccine is doing anything but causing an increase in frequency doesn't seem legitimate.

I will do a quick case/population break down for the last year of the other VPD you are considering vaccinating for.

Diphtheria: Since 2004 there have been no reported cases of Diphtheria in the U.S. From 1980-2004, the maximum number of cases was 5 on any given year. If we assume the worst and hope for the best, which is what I always do, we are looking at (with a population of 317,000,000+) a 1 in 63,400,000 chance your child will get it.

Tetanus: much like Diphtheria has been completely unaffected by the coverage rates of the DPT/DTaP over the last 20+ years. Anywhere from 0-95 cases per year since 1980, even with coverage rates dipping to 69% in 1991, the number of cases of tetanus was 57. If we apply our worse case scenario and say 95 people in the U.S. will get tetanus in 2010, your child will have a 1 in 3,336,842 chance of being one of those people.

Polio Containing Vaccines: in my opinion are a huge farce. The last case of Polio in the U.S. was in 1986, according to the WHO. That year there were 9 cases. Every year since then, there have been 0 cases per year, despite the fact that in 1987 coverage dropped to 24%. And just four years after that coverage was only at 53%. Hardly what most doctors claim would allow for "herd immunity." This is an unnecessary vaccine, in my opinion. If outbreaks happen again, let them start their huge campaign and we all "learned our lesson" I suppose.

All datas from: WHO vaccine-preventable disease monitoring system, 2009 global summary
http://www.who.int/immunization/docu.../en/index.html

Haemophilus Influenzae B: The last one you mentioned was HIB. This was a scary one for me. Just yesterday my husband and I were discussing whether or not to vaccinate our 3 yr. for this once she enters school. However, I am planning to home school for Pre-School and Kindergarten. So, when our daughter makes it to 1st grade, she will be 5 years old. Here is what I found just yesterday when I was browsing the CDC website:

"If the child is 5 years old or older and hasn’t received any Hib vaccine, Hib vaccine is not necessary."
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...ld-hib-508.pdf

This was from a handout for doctors on how to administer the HIB vaccination. HIB is also present in many, many peoples nasal passages and does not make them or those they come in contact with ill at all. In fact, the WHO doesn't currently include HIB on their monitoring list of vaccine preventable diseases. So, how many people are infected with HIB each year? Impossible to know. But I can tell you how many children under 5 yrs died from it. In 2002:

"386,000 children died from Hemophilus influenzae type b (Hib)" in the ENTIRE WORLD. That's right. Out of all 6 billion of us. And in America, there is, on average 2-5 cases per state, per year. (They often cluster). In my home state of Maryland, we had two cases the year before my daughter's birth. So, in 2006, Maryland had a population of 5,602,258. That puts my daughter's risk at about 1 in 2.8 million.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5518a4.htm

We ultimately decided against all vaccinations based on the fact that 295,939 adverse vaccine reactions have been reported since VAERS existence. According to the CDC, the VAERS likely only shows anywhere from 1-10% of the total adverse reactions. That puts our baby at a WAY higher risk of having an adverse reaction to a vaccine than to developing a VPD.

Best of luck in your research! Remember, its your choice!!!

Love,
Bebegim

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by ema-adama

To the bolded part.

I remember reading somewhere that the milder symptoms are if you have recently been vaxed (which of course would apply to a recently vaxed baby) but that if you catch whooping cough years after the vax, there is anecdotal evidence that the cough can be harder and last longer. Do you have any info on that?

I don't have info on the anecdotal evidence that it's a real phenomenon, but there's this:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...10.1086/381204

Of particular interest is the lack of a significant ACT antibody response in children for whom the DTP or DTaP vaccines failed. This induced tolerance is intriguing and may be due to the phenomenon called “original antigenic sin” [22]. In this phenomenon, a child responds at initial exposure to all presented epitopes of the infecting agent or vaccine. With repeated exposure when older, the child responds preferentially to those epitopes shared with the original infecting agent or vaccine and can be expected to have responses to new epitopes of the infecting agent that are less marked than normal.

You have to read the whole thing to understand what they're talking about, but ACT stands for "adenylate cyclase toxin".

Immunity to ACT is necessary for clearing pertussis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC97830/

(read the full text...I can't C&P enough of the important parts without going over 50 words. You might want to look up what "phagocytosis" is first in order to understand what they're saying.)

[mamakay]

Last night as I was assessing vaccine coverage rates from 1980-2008 I found something that just shocked me. The rate of pertussis since 1980 has been constantly increasing, in absolutely NO relation to the vaccine coverage rates for (DTP/DTaP). Here are some examples:

Pertussis:

1981: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 1,730
1986: Coverage: 97%, Cases: 4,195
1991: Coverage: 69%, Cases: 2,719
1998: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 7405
2003: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 11,647
2004: Coverage: 96%, Cases: 25,827

These are just a few of the over 20 years of data they have. Curiously, the US/CDC failed to report the coverage rates for two of the years with the highest case rates.

To me, worrying about whooping cough is real. But thinking the vaccine is doing anything but causing an increase in frequency doesn't seem legitimate.

You have to understand that the increase isn't necessarily "real". It's almost definitely mostly a diagnostic phenomenon. Back in the 1980's and early 90's, most docs though the pertussis vax was effective like the measles vax. As in, it prevents transmission. Once this misconception was corrected in light of new research, more cases that previously went misdiagnosed were correctly diagnosed.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by mamakay

I don't have info on the anecdotal evidence that it's a real phenomenon, but there's this:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...10.1086/381204


You have to read the whole thing to understand what they're talking about, but ACT stands for "adenylate cyclase toxin".

Immunity to ACT is necessary for clearing pertussis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC97830/

(read the full text...I can't C&P enough of the important parts without going over 50 words. You might want to look up what "phagocytosis" is first in order to understand what they're saying.)

Thanks - I am working through it slowly with a dictionary.

I was just surprised to read that the vaccine reduces severity in recently vaccinated persons. When I first read about it reducing severity, I somehow assumed that was it. Get vaccinated and you have a less severe form of the disease when you get it, whenever that is. Now I am not so sure.

My mum told me when I had whooping cough in 1982 (age 5) that is was of shorter duration and I coughed less dramatically than my peers who had been vaccinated. I unfortunately never asked my mum why she didn't vaccinate me or my brother in the 1970's. I know she wasn't harassed for it, perhaps considered a bit kooky, but not harassed. Anyway, I just assumed that could not be true about my cough being less severe than my vaccinated peers, as I had read so much about the vaccine lessening the intensity of the disease. Again, now I am not so sure.

[jrvitalis]

Vaccinations

I highly recommend Dr. Sears book on Vaccinations - he takes a look at each vaccine and disease (including ingredients and risks) so that you can make an informed decision on each one. He also lists an alternative and delayed vaccination schedule at the back of the book that seems to be a pretty balanced approach to the issue. It's a tough decision - good luck!

[bbrandonsmom]

Wow, wish I had your dr, op. Though, I guess he pushed vaxes for children not "isolated"?
I took my boys out as infants, ds2 more so, only because it was summer and I had a toddler as well. ds1 stopped vax at 4m and ds2 has none. Both were bf until 2, though ds1 I believe has compromised immunity from the vaccines-op you can pm me for more info if you'd like.
Inside vaccines has some good info on whooping cough, but I don't have my bookmarks. I think they have the link for the swedish study regarding breastfeeding and whooping cough if I remember correctly. Does anyone have that link-the swedish one on hand?

Personally, my niece had whooping cough and this was after her first or second vax. I can't remember though her duration of it.