Pediatrician kicking us out - Page 5

[PlayaMama]

Originally Posted by samuel's mama

I am sorry. I just don't see the plumber analogy as comparable. Mostly because denying medical care could cost someone their life, plumbing could not.

i thought the whole point was that doctors were just like any other service industry and we could choose to follow their advice or not? which is why i gave the example of another service industry being required to do something they disagree with.


If I have a very sick kid who needs immediate medical attention and the closest pediatrician to me that will treat my child is two hours from me, this could potentially mean that my child could die because I cannot get to a health care practioner that will treat my child simply because I don't vaccinate?!? Tell me how I have options in this situation? (I guess I could go to an emergency room but who knows what kind of treatment I would get there, not to mention the high cost for the visit which could potentially mean no food on the table next month. And no, I don't think that this should be a consequence of my decision to not vaccinate. Medical TREATMENT should be a human right and has nothing to do with disagreements on medical PREVENTION)

i'm not saying that it's right or what should be done. i'm saying, if you know that this is going to happen then it's up to you to decide how to deal with it. options i can think of: er, urgent care, homeopathics, acupuncture, figure it out yourself from dr. google, move closer to a care provider that would help you.

i _do_ live two hours from town and it's very conceivable that my child could be hurt by this decision. there's lots of reasons that i'm out here but i always have the option of figuring out a way to deal with the situation.

i'm not saying there's lots of WONDERFUL options! i'm just saying that there are options.

Now I know that you said that you are not saying that all care should be withheld if the parent chooses to not vaccinate...However, if pediatricians are allowed to kick patients out of their practice, then doesn't that mean those very patients are not allowed to come to the practice for medical care?

yep, that's what it means. however, it does not mean that you can not get medical attention anywhere in the world. it means you can't get medical care from that doctor.

I guess what I am saying is that medical treatment and medical prevention are two completely different things. Just because a pediatrician and parent don't agree on HOW to prevent disease/acute illness, doesn't mean they can't agree on medical treatment for illness and disease when they occur. (or even acute injuries for that matter) We should be allowed to see a pediatrician that we agree with on medical treatment while agreeing to disagree on medical prevention.

i agree. but the reality is that there might not be enough practitioners willing to do that. sure it's unfair but i think it's the doctors perogative to choose who they feel comfortable providing services too.


Also, we don't get kicked out for choosing not to take a medication, why should we get kicked out for choosing to not inject chemicals that have not been properly studied? I just don't get why the two issues are so different.

honestly? i think it has to do with how those who choose not to vax discuss the issue in the media and with their doctors as well as a profit motive. i think that it's become an "issue" and all too often, those that choose not to vax are lumped together regardless of if it's issues like serotype-replacement or the government putting tracking chips in to us so they can control us from space with their satellites.

either reason may make perfect sense to the person using it but only one argument is going to hold scientific validity with a doctor.

And I think what people are really trying to say here is that no baby/child should be denied care due to their vaccination status. Which you have stated you agree. But how is it possible to receive medical care when you have been kicked out of a practice? Being kicked out of a practice means that you are not allowed to be seen as a patient there, no? Even though you say care should not be denied...this is essentially is what is happening!

it is. but you're making a choice that is outside the mainstream and there are currently consequences for that choice. i'm not saying the consequences are apt but i think at this point it shouldn't be that terribly surprising when your ped decides to drop you.

[nia82]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

You can file an ICE complaint though.

Yes, so far it wasn't warranted though. I filed one for the vet on base for giving my cat vaccines that I didn't want (they said oops, I couldn't even yell stop - they jabbed her super quickly)...
I had a good laugh though when the NP told us that now that DS is older than 12 months, most vaccines are unnecessary, the ONLY important one is the flu shot. Really?????!!!!!

[PlayaMama]

Originally Posted by nia82

ROFL... This is true. DH always makes fun of German toilets and the "obsession" to look at it and that it stinks more since it doesn't fall in the water right away. I never knew that toilets could be designed like American toilets...

Ok back to the topic... I have gotten an earful from the ped and NP, but it's not like I nor they have a choice - we are military and we can only see the people on base. They cannot fire us, they cannot make us sign the bad mommy form, but we also cannot switch to a civilian ped unless we want to have a pay-share...

ah!! i totally didn't know if that was true or not! i went to germany when i was 18 and i think everything was so different i didn't notice the toilets, or if i did i didn't know what it was for! that is so funny!!

what an interesting situation with the military. it's kind of interesting that they can't drop you.

ah! more to say but i need to get a fire started since my dd is a little congested.

[ema-adama]

I'm not sure I follow why it is an acceptable consequence for a doctor to terminate his/her relationship with a patient based on the vaccine choices of the parent.

I understand that both doctor and parent are happier if they have a similar approach to health and healing. There certainly would be less conflict.

It comes across as more of an administrative issue rather than a medical issue when paediatricians choose to terminate their relationship with a family based on vaccine choices. Especially if that is the only medical issue that has such a strong penalty. It comes across as punitative, and I suspect is not going to solve the problem of parents not vaccinating. Sure, that practice can boast of a close to 100% vax record. However the chances are good the child will remain vaccine free or on a selective delayed schedule. Or not. Maybe it's working for some doctors. Maybe they are managing to convince some parents to vaccinate by exerting that kind of pressure on them.

I personally would not go back to a doctor who could not respect my choices. I did not. I knew we would be wasting each others time.

But then again, I believe that the government is putting tracking chips in to us so they can control us from space with their satellites.











- NOT

[samuel's mama]

PlayaMama,
I don't have the time to banter back and forth on every paragraph right now but I will say this. Health care practioners treating patients who have chosen not to vaccinate does not require them to DO something that they disagree with. Being required to DO something you are against would be like a health care practioner who believes that vaccines are neither safe or effective (but instead an unneccessary assault on the immune system) being forced to giving a child vaccines because the parent tells them to.
In my opinion, they should not have the right to refuse giving patients medical treatment because the patient's parent has a different idea of preventing disease. Some people do not have options that you speak of and innocent children should not be harmed by a pediatrician self rightous decision to deny care due to their arrogant and unfounded belief that vaccines cause no harm and anyone who denies the ridiculous one-size fits all vaccination program is medically irresponsible.
It is my belief that it is this decade more and more "mainstream" health care practioners will be taking a serious look at what parents have been saying for years; That their children were indeed HARMED from vaccination. This will lead them to finally take a look at the science instead of just believing everything they are taught without question. And when they do that they will see that what they have been taught to be good science is simply not there when it comes to vaccination's safety AND effectiveness. The decision to not vaccinate is becoming more and more mainstream...hence the backlash of pediatricians refusing to care for the unvaccinated.
It is due to this thread that I will become an activist against this very issue. Because denying necessary care to innocent children (who do not have options) because of their parents choice to not vaccinate is morally wrong and frankly inhumane!

[healthgirl]

Originally Posted by Jadzia

Exactly. That's why I don't buy for a moment their "we only care about our patients health" excuse for their strong-arm vaccinating tactics.

I agree!

My ex-ped told me "I couldn't live with myself if something happened to him" after telling me to go find a new pediatrician even though my 5 1/2 month old son had a UNRESOLVED medical issue that she was well aware of.

[Arduinna]

I managed to avoid the whole getting fired by choosing a family physician over a ped and only going to the Dr when we were sick enough to need medical attention ( which was pretty rare) so if vaxes were brought up I just said that I don't think it's a good idea to vax a sick child, they always let it go. Probably helped that we would end up changing insurance or moving so we didn't have the same Dr the whole time. I never once told a physician we don't vax. Only once was pressured for a vax and I chose to tell them get them at the county health services.

[PlayaMama]

Originally Posted by samuel's mama

It is due to this thread that I will become an activist against this very issue.

this is exactly what i was talking about!

i'd recommend that you think about what might be the most effective strategy but i think being active about something that bothers you is the best solution!

[Sweetiemommy]

Just wanted to update that we found a very nice osteopathic MD in our area with a family practice, who is actually supportive of non vaccinating or selective vaccinating. We are switching our whole family to the practice, so it turned out for the best. I also want to clarify that I understand the theory of a practice not wanting to have patients who disagree with their recommendations, but we need to remember that the parents bear the responsibility of choice in the health care of their children. In the end, it is our right and responsibility to make the final decision on ANY care administered to OUR child. The doctor is there to ADVISE the patient, based on his/her knowledge and expertise. There is no reason why a doctor should believe that his/her professional opinion regarding treatment of ANY condition or preventative action should supercede the right of the parent to choose what is best for the child.

[Deborah]

Good to know that you solved that problem Sweetiemommy!

And you are absolutely right about the role of the doctor and the role of the parent.

For one thing, if something goes wrong, because you followed the doctor's advice and got the vaccines, do you think the doctor will provide lifelong care for your sick child? No, you will.

Equally, if you disregard the doctor's advice and skip the vaccines and your child gets sick with mumps or measles or chickenpox and has terrible problems as a result, you'll still be stuck with providing lifelong care for your sick child.

The choice has to be the parent's responsibility because the outcome is going to be on the parent, not the doctor.

[Sweetiemommy]

Originally Posted by PlayaMama

it is. but you're making a choice that is outside the mainstream and there are currently consequences for that choice. i'm not saying the consequences are apt but i think at this point it shouldn't be that terribly surprising when your ped decides to drop you.

Playmama, I have to ask if you would fully support all of the statements you made if the doctor were making a decision about who to treat based on race, relgion, disability, sexual orientation, etc. Making choices "outside the mainstream" should not affect one's ability to receive whatever level of health care one deems appropriate. We are messing with a very dangerous infringement of rights, IMO. And when the government begins to play a more invasive role in the health care industry, this type of control of personal choice will become a very dangerous one indeed.

[thefragile7393]

Originally Posted by Sweetiemommy

Just wanted to update that we found a very nice osteopathic MD in our area with a family practice, who is actually supportive of non vaccinating or selective vaccinating. We are switching our whole family to the practice, so it turned out for the best. I also want to clarify that I understand the theory of a practice not wanting to have patients who disagree with their recommendations, but we need to remember that the parents bear the responsibility of choice in the health care of their children. In the end, it is our right and responsibility to make the final decision on ANY care administered to OUR child. The doctor is there to ADVISE the patient, based on his/her knowledge and expertise. There is no reason why a doctor should believe that his/her professional opinion regarding treatment of ANY condition or preventative action should supercede the right of the parent to choose what is best for the child.

That's what gets me. WHat people don't like to say is that advice is just it....advice. To be followed or not. I've grown up with some treatments not warrented for religious reasons, and it's extremely important to me that doctors respect parental choice (or patient choice). For now, we DO have a right to choose what healthcare we wish, and in a perfect world everyone would respect that. Unfortunately it isn't such a world. I see it on forums all the time where people feel that parents should be arresetd for not subjecting their child to chemo or blood transfusions or any other "recommended" treatment. It goes to show we are not truely "free" as people think. I would love doctors to see that we aren't choosing death for our children (or ourselves even) by not following xyz protocal. People who refuse transfusions for religious or even non-religious reasons aren't choosing death..they simply want a different form of treatment. THere's quite a few other treatments out there that don't require blood and procedures to minimize blood loss. It does not mean they will die if they don't choose blood. Same with no chemo or other aggressive treatments, and the same with no vaccines or few vaccines or even vaccines on a schedule that they choose---we simply choose to not have this procedure (or have our own schedule). We want our children healthy and there's other ways of boosting the immune system to ensure good health, and not getting a shot does not mean that anyone will die, will get sick, etc. This is what people refuse to see.

Of course not all doctors are the same and we can't paint all of them with the same brush. I personally got tired of hearing the same stuff over and over...parroting the same stuff with different twists. I get tired of hearing the CDC say the best way to prevent disease is shots---lets not mention good handwashing, good food, anything to boost the immune system which actually does the hard work. No the best way is to get a shot, which means you don't have to do all the other stuff apparently. If doctors hate the generalizations, then more need to wake up and smell the coffee. There's far more docs that follow the generalizations then don't, at least in my experience--and if more docs would respect parents, then these generalizations would disappear.