Sport team support at school - Page 2

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by MJB

Children are not parrots. They are humans and thinkers.

Ironically, by refusing to make space for a child to form their own views (by doing things like saying they are too young) parents force their kids to be parrots.

If you don't want you child to be a parrot, then you have to let them have their own views. If the parent has already made all the decisions about what the family does, then the kid has to be a parrot. They've got no choice -- it's the only role left.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

Velochic, what did you end up doing? I would have been ticked. Your daughter shouldn't have had any pressure put on her.

Well, I talked to dd about what happened. She said that she was upset because she didn't care about football and felt like she was supposed to and had to wear what the other kids were wearing. I supported her in this and told her I'd talk to them about it.

I gently suggested to the principal in an email that on these "spirit" days to support the local team, that it's not a day where you either have to wear a "supporting jersey" or school uniform, but allow the kids who do not support the team to wear street clothes as they do on the other "non-uniform" days. I didn't say anything about the counselor making dd cry. No reply yet.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by MJB

This just isn't true at all, and it's disrespectful of children IMO. My children are 4 and 7 and old enough to form their own opinions. They enjoy watching sports and they have their own favorite teams and players that are not the same as my husband, myself, or even each other. Not to mention there's nothing wrong with supporting your parents' alma mater-- I did as a kid and ended up going to that same university and now my sons are fans. It's also about supporting your hometown in many cases (especially for college teams).
I heard the same kind of disrespect for kids and their intellectual capabilities during last year's election. Children are not parrots. They are humans and thinkers. My kids joined the Obama bandwagon before we did-- we all watched the primaries together and they formed their own opinions based on the issues that matter to them.

You've actually kind of proven my point. They know about sports because you watch them. Without that input from parents, then how would they even understand "team loyalty"? How would they understand "cheering on a team" or "booing" another? They're learning it from you.

As for the election... dd was in 1st grade for that and I didn't hear her say anything that dh and I had not already stated. I don't think she could have, in any way, shape or form been able to independently come to a conclusion to support John Kerry or Obama on her own because she didn't even understand the issues. And she is a very smart cookie and very aware of politics because that *is* something we're interested in at our house. I think it ridiculous to say that kids don't form these connections through their parents. I think it would be SCARY to say they don't... I'd like to think that at 7, dh and I are STILL dd's biggest influence in life!

[MJB]

Originally Posted by velochic

You've actually kind of proven my point. They know about sports because you watch them. Without that input from parents, then how would they even understand "team loyalty"? How would they understand "cheering on a team" or "booing" another? They're learning it from you.

As for the election... dd was in 1st grade for that and I didn't hear her say anything that dh and I had not already stated. I don't think she could have, in any way, shape or form been able to independently come to a conclusion to support John Kerry or Obama on her own because she didn't even understand the issues. And she is a very smart cookie and very aware of politics because that *is* something we're interested in at our house. I think it ridiculous to say that kids don't form these connections through their parents. I think it would be SCARY to say they don't... I'd like to think that at 7, dh and I are STILL dd's biggest influence in life!

I heard my kids say lots of things I hadn't stated and the issues that matter to them aren't the same as the ones that matter to me (for instance, my 7yo is very anti-war, which isn't a priority for me). If kids are exposed to things and encouraged to think about them, they will form opinions. My kids have opinions on things I know nothing about. You keep bragging about how you keep your child sheltered from these things as if sports were pornography. Sooner or later, she'll see a basketball game. And she might like it.

And it may be scary, but the truth is that kids' peers have a huge influence on them, as you are finding out. It's not scary to me as I value my children as people separate from myself.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by MJB

You keep bragging about how you keep your child sheltered from these things as if sports were pornography. Sooner or later, she'll see a basketball game. And she might like it.

I never "bragged" that I keep her sheltered. I said we are not interested in spectator sports and we don't watch or participate in the "rah-rah" stuff. How does that make it "sheltering". She's certainly getting enough exposure (to the point of exclusion) at school. She still doesn't want to watch football. Should I force her to, so she can "fit in"?

How about other cultural exposure? We do watch foreign films and she is exposed to that... for those that don't do that, are they sheltering their children from watching movies with subtitles? How about people who don't raise their children bilingual? Are they sheltering them from foreign influence? What about people who don't take their kids into nature or plant gardens? Are these all things that they are "sheltering" their kids from, or could it just be that they aren't interested in those things? Why are spectator sports any different? Am I depriving her because we also hate car racing but I'm actually a good parent if I try to keep processed food out of her diet (because you know, McDonald's is certainly a CULTURAL ICON!!!)?

I don't really give a rat's ass if she likes sports or not, but I'm not going to FORCE her to support a team she has no clue about, for a sport she has no clue about and shows NO INTEREST in finding out about! I happen to be a former competitive cyclist, high school basketball star, college tennis player, swimmer and diver. I grew up playing competitive sports. I've never enjoyed watching them. I'm not going to sit there and mindlessly watch sports on TV just so dd can get "exposure" or not be "sheltered". She can decide to watch if she wants when she's older has her own TV. ETA: and I'm sure as hell not going to let her watch the TV advertisements that go along with spectator sports on TV. And I'll not waver from that for one second!

[anthasam]

I just stumbled upon this thread and read with interest. We don't have a TV and I guess some folks here would call my children "culturally ignorant" because they don't know Disney characters, the NY Jets or [fill in the blank].

However, I think as parents it is our decision. Seven years old is still quite young, in my opinion, to be watching professional sports (and the commercial breaks), let alone be forced to support them.

Velochic, I hope your daughter was satisfied with the resolution.

[EFmom]

I don't exactly view professional sports in the same category as pornography, but almost. I think they are pointless and a huge waste of time and money. I think they have a largely negative societal impact. Pornography at least has a point.

There is no good reason to waste my child's time or my time on junk like that. I have better things to do than cheer on overpaid, steroid enhanced football players pounding the bejeezus out of each other. If it floats your boat, that's fine, and I don't care whether or not somebody else wants to get involved. That is also kind of how I feel about porn, come to think of it.

There are lots of things my kids are going to remain culturally ignorant about for as long as is reasonably possible. We don't immerse ourselves in gang culture, listen to rap music or watch reality shows or cable TV. So far, the kids are doing pretty well, despite the deprivation of not owning football jerseys.

Our elementary school also had days when kids were supposed to wear jerseys supporting their favorite teams, but it was much lower key than the OP. We ignored it, and as far as I can tell, the kids don't need therapy.

[aussiemum]

*disclaimer* As I type this I have one eye on MDC & one eye on the Australian Open (tennis), & I am currently cheering every point Casey Delaqua makes. I'd love to see her get through to the next round. *disclaimer*

That said, I think that what a lot of what velochic is being taken to task over here is really insignificant. I would hope that most kids age 7-8 (or older) are directly influenced by their parent's lifestyle choices, & hopefully the parent's choices are positive ones like velo & her DH have made. I see nothing at all wrong with not watching sport of any kind. Goodness, many people don't watch any TV at all & there is nothing wrong with that! Personal choice people, personal choice, & the day we are not allowed to have personal choice in how we live our daily lives is a victory for totalitarianism. Not the kind of victory I want to see.

In my opinion there is nothing at all 'perverse' about choosing not to watch or participate in a particular cultural activity. What is really perverse & wrong is that others see the non-participant as 'wrong', somehow. That is just so.... &#$^@%. It's a big world, with plenty of room for diversity. Shame on those who want to turn this into a culture war.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by aussiemum

In my opinion there is nothing at all 'perverse' about choosing not to watch or participate in a particular cultural activity. What is really perverse & wrong is that others see the non-participant as 'wrong', somehow. That is just so.... &#$^@%. It's a big world, with plenty of room for diversity. Shame on those who want to turn this into a culture war.

Thank you aussiemum, and others.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by aussiemum

What is really perverse & wrong is that others see the non-participant as 'wrong', somehow.

I don't see non-participation as wrong, I just think it is a choice for a child to make for themselves. I wouldn't *force* my kids to participate, but I would *let* them.

very, very different things.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by velochic

I never "bragged" that I keep her sheltered. I said we are not interested in spectator sports and we don't watch or participate in the "rah-rah" stuff. How does that make it "sheltering". She's certainly getting enough exposure (to the point of exclusion) at school. She still doesn't want to watch football. Should I force her to, so she can "fit in"?

I'd never suggest forcing someone to watch something (and it wouldn't be really useful anyway if you and your husband don't understand the sport to offer explanations). I just think that it's important to be aware of what's going on in your city. Though you don't care about football, it does bring in significant amounts of money in the cities that maximize their exposure (and that's pretty universally true for the teams in this year's playoffs). Knowing that it exists is part of being a member of your community.

We live in Kentucky. I couldn't care less about the Kentucky Derby. I've never watched it and have no intention to. In fact, I have numerous ethical problems with horse racing. Still I know the Derby exists and when it is. I'm aware of the major events surrounding it. (How could I not be? They're advertised everywhere, covered in the local papers, etc.)

In that sense, I don't think knowing that your city has a team in the playoffs is a bad thing. Nor does it mean that you need to watch football. It just means you're aware of what's happening in your community.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by EFmom

I don't exactly view professional sports in the same category as pornography, but almost. I think they are pointless and a huge waste of time and money. I think they have a largely negative societal impact. Pornography at least has a point.

That's full of huge misconceptions that come from someone who doesn't understand sports culture. You can't claim ignorance on the one hand and negativity on the other. If you don't care for sports, then how do you know that it's negative? Sports has in many ways served as a positive cultural force (see academic research on integration in Southern schools, for instance). Not to like it is fine, but blaming it for a host of social ills isn't.

[EFmom]

Originally Posted by BrandiRhoades

That's full of huge misconceptions that come from someone who doesn't understand sports culture. You can't claim ignorance on the one hand and negativity on the other. If you don't care for sports, then how do you know that it's negative? Sports has in many ways served as a positive cultural force (see academic research on integration in Southern schools, for instance). Not to like it is fine, but blaming it for a host of social ills isn't.

I don't care for methamphetamine, but I know it's negative.

There are certainly some positive things that can be attributed to professional sports, but a host of negatives as well. On the balance, I see the negatives far outweighing the positives. I'm an academic. I see the negatives that our university's teams bring to campus on a daily basis, and don't need to attend a single football game to do so.

But the point here isn't whether or not sports have redeeming social impact. It's whether or not one has an obligation to immerse one's family in something one doesn't find in the least bit edifying. I'm not seeing it.

My kids have to listen to endless idiotic bantering about professional sports from the teachers and administrators at her school. They even make announcements about which team has won the game in morning. Then they complain about not having enough instructional time, but I digress.

One of my kids wanted to engage me in a discussion about whether or not I liked the Yankees or the Red Socks as a result of all the blithering at school. If both teams fell off the face of the earth, that would be fine with me. Knowing she doesn't know the first thing about baseball, I told her she could watch a game with me. It took her about ten minutes for her to realize that was ten minutes of her life she'd never get back. "Mom, how do people watch this stuff?" Beats me, but at least I hadn't wasted money on a jersey.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by EFmom

It's whether or not one has an obligation to immerse one's family in something one doesn't find in the least bit edifying. I'm not seeing it.

I'm repeating myself but...

it's not about whether or not the parent is "immersing" the child, it's about whether or not the parent is leaving space for their child to form their own opinions on the world.

I feel that I have an obligation to leave that space for my kids. Some parents are just the opposite. They feel that their children are best off with no space to form their own opinions. I'm surprised that pro sports is an issue that parents would feel this way about, but whatever.

[aussiemum]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I'm repeating myself but...

it's not about whether or not the parent is "immersing" the child, it's about whether or not the parent is leaving space for their child to form their own opinions on the world.

I feel that I have an obligation to leave that space for my kids. Some parents are just the opposite. They feel that their children are best off with no space to form their own opinions.

Linda, I hear your point, but I don't think the pps on this thread who aren't into sport are doing that. For example, velo's DD didn't want to participate but felt like she had to in order to fit in with the school, & EFmom actually sat down to watch a sport with her child.

I'm aware that there are plenty of parents out there who give their kids no opportunity to form an opinion that doesn't fit with the family mold (certain religious beliefs spring immediately to mind, for example), but i'm just not seeing that from the pps. :

[lauren]

Returned. Please post respectfully and abide by the User Agreement even if you don't agree with one another! Thanks

[mammastar2]

I think the issue is that school-driven events like spirit days must be structured so that non-participating children - for whatever reason, whether lack of interest, religious reasons, finances, anything - are not made to feel excluded or in the wrong.

It's important to the well-being of schools and the children in them that the adults running them not inadvertently create innies and outies, or suggest that 'belonging' or 'not standing out' are the most important values to be had.

[orangecanoe]

velochic---I had a hard enough time finding clothes that fit the color days. I actually can't stand that so many schools in the region, ours included, devote school time to pep rallies and encourage wearing sports team apparel during playoffs. Nor do I think it's the best use of instructional time to teach the Eagles' fight song in music class. I think it puts pressure on kids and families to purchase gear when otherwise they wouldn't. Many kids have official jerseys and others may only be able to afford the cheap walmart tee, yk?

[orangecanoe]

Originally Posted by mammastar2

I think the issue is that school-driven events like spirit days must be structured so that non-participating children - for whatever reason, whether lack of interest, religious reasons, finances, anything - are not made to feel excluded or in the wrong.

It's important to the well-being of schools and the children in them that the adults running them not inadvertently create innies and outies, or suggest that 'belonging' or 'not standing out' are the most important values to be had.

Agreed. Our elem. school has monthly spirit days where wearing of school gear is encouraged BUT each child was given a free school shirt at the beginning of the year, so no pressure on the family to buy anything. Even just wearing the school color is encouraged.

[mojumi]

I wanted to chime in that when we have a 'jersey day' at school, my daughter wears her ballet company t-shirt. I tell her "your sport is ballet, so you get to support your ballet team on jersey day". She seems to get lots of positive feedback, since it is an athletic activity she actually does, rather than 'just' being a team fan.

(btw I think it's asinine to ask girls to wear a jersey for a sport only the big boys get to play professionally ... but that's another thread, and I don't include that editorial when dd is getting dressed on jersey day!)

Anyway, I don't think there is anything wrong with making 'jersey day' or any other school theme day fit in more with your own family ... rather than making your family fit in to it.