Would you pay for a vet behaviorist? (Sorry really long)

[Momily]

Lyle, my dog, has been the sweetest most gentle dog in the world, hyper but very "soft" if that makes sense, since we rescued him in May. Except for a 1 1/2 week period right around Christmas, during which he growled at me and my son several times, and snapped at me once. It was definitely a warning snap and not an attempt to bite as he backed away from me and then snapped.

The events all occurred while he was either on the furniture and we were making him get off, or otherwise forcing him to go somewhere he didn't want to go (e.g. into his crate). The first couple of events, which were both growling at my 10 year old, happened at home, but the rest of them happened during our trip to see family for the holidays which was definitely stressful and overstimulating to him. The events also came on the tail end of a period when we were sick a lot and then I was working a lot to make up for being sick and he didn't get the attention/walks/exercise he usually got.

Anyway, we've done the following interventions consistently since we came home from the trip:

1) No more furniture.
2) No more bones or animal parts (although it seems like there isn't a pattern there, I figured it couldn't hurt).
3) Lots of work on basic obedience.
4) A week long period of anti inflammatory in case he was acting out due to an injury (the vet couldn't find one but prescribed the med anyway).
5) A joint supplement, which he'll take long term.
6) NILIF
7) Keeping him with us almost all the time we're home (e.g. bringing him in the bathroom with me, only putting him in the yard for short periods of time, etc . . . )
8) No more daycare with big dogs.
9) No more dog parks with big dogs.
10) No more wild crazy games of fetch (him jumping and twisting to grab the ball) These last 3 were on the theory that maybe he was sore/injured.

Initially we were also not doing daycare at all, and crating him while I was at work and overnight, but then after 2 weeks of that he started peeing blood and was diagnosed as having crystals and a tiny tiny stone (3 mm) in his bladder, that the vet thought was due to not drinking in the crate (I put water in there but I think he finds it stressful and doesn't drink) and not enough exercise. So now he's sleeping loose in my room but not on the bed, and spending alternate days at daycare (they put him with the little dogs, he's right at the dividing line between the sizes) and home lose in a bedroom with the mattress removed so he can't get on the bed.

Anyway, since we started this we have had no incidents. Literally not one. He's his usual sweet happy self.

We have an appointment with a vet behaviorist set for March. It was the earliest I could get, although I think if I push for a cancellation appointment I could get one. However, it costs about $350, which is a lot for us right now. My question is, would you still keep that appointment? Would you assume we have some underlying issue that needs to be or the aggression will come back, or would you say "the problems' gone, we're clearly on the right track"? $350 is a lot for me, but not impossible. Clearly if I thought he might bite I'd find the money. But how he's behaving now it seems silly to pay for a behaviorist, but on the other hand I don't want to see this reescalate.

If you've read this far, thank you!

[madskye]

If the money wouldn't cause my family hardship, I'd go. It's pretty fascinating and I'm sure you'd learn a lot from the behaviorist.

From what you described, it sounds like you've dealt with the underlying health issue, plus some behavior modification. Could you call the behaviorist before hand, describe the issues you've taken and the results, and ask if they still recommend that you come in? I had a lot of issues with my old dog, and the U of Penn clinic was very helpful to me just over the phone. That was years ago, but a phone call might give you more info on whether to keep the appt or cancel.

[Momily]

I'm a behaviorist for humans, so I do think it would be fascinating, but I would say it would be somewhat of a hardship. I don't have enough money to cover it in savings without dipping into our emergency funds or retirement or something, so it would mean giving up something we'd planned -- shortening our vacation or something. Not something I'd hesitate to do if I thought he was an actual danger to us, but not my first choice, we've already had 2 $300 plus vet visits this month. So, I'd want to get something out of other than just fascinating.

I feel like I'm not sure if we have a behavioral problem, or a medical problem combined with a behavioral problem. If it's the first then I think we've solved it, if it's the latter I'm more concerned because while we might have addressed the medical piece it seems inevitable that he'll be sore at some point in the future -- every dog has some kind of illness or accident in their lifetime don't they? The vet feels that the bladder stone is the result of the restrictions we put in place after the growl/snap, that is that when we stopped sending him to daycare and started crating him at night and when I was at work he stopped drinking enough, so it's unlikely that he was in pain from the bladder stone when it started.

I can cancel up until a few days before, so I guess I'll just wait. If we have another 6 weeks like this one it may feel like a distant memory and ridiculous to keep the appointment. One more incident, even a growl, and I'll probably be eager to pay the money.

[SoulCakes]

I think you have the right idea, waiting until shortly before the appointment to see if another incident takes place. You seem to have a good grip on things, but here's my two cents:

You don't mention how long you've had your dog, but if you've had him for years with no incident then I would write this off as overstimulation exacerbating a health condition and putting him on guard. If he's older, you might want to keep an eye on him (as you obviously already are) in case he's getting "crabby" with old age. If that's not the case, then I'd take the wait-and-see approach. No, I wouldn't spend $350 on an appointment if you don't have free cash and the problem seems to have ended. If, however, he acts up again, I would make a new appointment and keep it no matter what, because you need to find out what's going on.

In my experience, dogs pretty much follow the philosophy of "what you see is what you get". Each dog can have a wide range of behaviors, but their reaction to particular situations is usually the same. For instance, my corgi is gentle as a lamb but fearless unless she hears thunder or fireworks. I can count on this. I've only had one dog that needed help from a behaviorist, but I always knew exactly what his triggers were. Point being, if your dog's behavior is out of nowhere, isn't consistent with his personality and you aren't sure if or when he'll be set off again, then it probably was just a health issue and now that it's been treated, should go away. If it comes back, that's the time to start looking deeper.

[GearGirl]

I would if you need to, but not yet. The crystals in the urine can be incredibly painful, and it might have caused some of what you saw as far as moving him/crating him. Gromit is 13 months now, and just sweet, sweet, sweet, but I learned a few things that I had to work on, like NOT giving animal parts. He became crazed, and did growl and stole the bone I gave our older dog as well. He like to do a growly thing to talk to us, but in a fresh way. He actually thinks he can talk. He has never tried to give a warning bite, but I could see ANY dog doing that if it were in pain. I think you should see if his problems are over before you go further. My worry would be finding problems that aren't really there. I also think it's great that you stopped with the crate!

[ktmeyer]

I'm a Certified Veterinary Technician, a Certified Professional Dog Trainer, and a member of the Society of Vetreinary Behavior Technicians. I think what you describe sounds like a painful, grumpy dog, and it sounds like you are doing all the right things. A book you might want to read is "MINE" by Jean Donaldson. It's cheap and goes over everything very well. If the money is an issue I'd wait on the appointment, as long as there are NO other signs. What you described was fear biting. EVERY dog has a bite threshold, and it sounds like you had several things adding up at that time. I doubt any one of them would have put him over threshold, but added up together they did. Kind of like "the straw that broke the camels back". Another great book is The Culture Clash, which is by the same author. It talks a lot about bite threshold.

In the mean time, lots of hand feeding, and if you see ANY signs I'd see the behaviorist.

Katie

[Momily]

Thanks everyone!

I have a couple of more questions for those of you who say to go to the behaviorist if I see "any signs". Other than snapping, growling or god forbid biting, or not following commands that he knows well, I'm not sure what I'm looking for.

I feel like in the past few months (starting a few months before the incidents) I've seen more "pushy" or assertive behavior from him, but that's relative to a dog who was soooo submissive, at least to humans, when he came home, not relative to all dogs. For example he started doing the following:

1) Barking (one or two soft woofs, not non stop barking) if he's outside and wants to be let back in.

2) Eating or drinking if we aren't in the room -- it used to be that I could give him a treat, go to work, and the same treat would be lying on the floor when I came home, now it's gone.

3) Sounding an alarm (again a couple of woofs or a soft growl, stops the second I tell him it's OK) if someone comes on the porch -- it's rare for anyone to do this, so this has only happened a few times.

4) If I go to let him outside and he doesn't need to go, letting me know he doesn't want to go by stopping at the door to the laundry room, rather than following me to the outside door, but will then come to the door if I call him, and go outside if I insist.

5) Leaving us sitting in a room, and exploring the rest of the house for a few minutes.

6) Bringing us toys and asking us to play (and being a little bit of a pest about accepting no for an answer), rather than waiting for us to initiate and the being thrilled.

7) No longer caching everything (and I mean everything, when he first came home he dug holes in his bed and buried things like doorknobs that he found, he was forever pulling kibble out of places like between the couch cushions. That behavior is gone.

8) Exploring the yard, so that if I go to let him in I have to call him rather than lying in front of the door staring at it (and worrying that I won't come back?)

None of these are problems, in fact I think it was kind of unusual that he didn't do these things for so long, but they're definitely more assertive than he used to be. I chalked it up to the fact that he either matured (he's about 2) or he's settled in. Were these warning signs or coincidence? Does the fact that he still does these things seem alarming?

The other thing he's been doing that seems weird to me is if I've been gone longer than I meant to (I usually work an 8 hour day. If I know it will be longer he's in daycare, but sometimes like today something came up an I got home 10 hours after I left, which is a long time) when I come home he's lying on his bed in the room where I leave him, and when I come in he gives me a guilty look and keeps lying there. When I call him he gets up slowly and comes to me with his head down, tail between his legs. When I pat him and praise him he suddenly starts smiling and wagging. This is in contrast to running up to me smiling and wagging when I first open the door. I think it's that he's done something he thinks I wouldn't like (best guess, peed somewhere I can't find, but maybe climbed on forbidden furniture?) and he's scared, even though I've never disciplined him for peeing in the house since he's only done it when I've been gone too long -- not his fault. Anyway, it's weird.

Are these signs or normal?

[Ola_]

I think all the items you listed are just signs of him settling in, normal doggie behaviour. Really the things he was doing before (not eating/drinking while you're gone and laying by the door) are signs of separation anxiety, so I'm glad he's feeling more comfortable. Not sure about the last thing you described though, it sounds strange.

Now as dogs settle in they may test their boundaries, so make sure to ask him to do a command before you pet/feed/play/let him through a door so that you're not responding to pushy behaviour.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by Momily

Thanks everyone!

The other thing he's been doing that seems weird to me is if I've been gone longer than I meant to (I usually work an 8 hour day. If I know it will be longer he's in daycare, but sometimes like today something came up an I got home 10 hours after I left, which is a long time) when I come home he's lying on his bed in the room where I leave him, and when I come in he gives me a guilty look and keeps lying there. When I call him he gets up slowly and comes to me with his head down, tail between his legs. When I pat him and praise him he suddenly starts smiling and wagging. This is in contrast to running up to me smiling and wagging when I first open the door. I think it's that he's done something he thinks I wouldn't like (best guess, peed somewhere I can't find, but maybe climbed on forbidden furniture?) and he's scared, even though I've never disciplined him for peeing in the house since he's only done it when I've been gone too long -- not his fault. Anyway, it's weird.

So he did this again yesterday and I noticed a couple of things: 1) Is that even after he started jumping and wagging he didn't jump up, as is his typical pattern. 2) When we went downstairs he went straight to the backdoor to be let out.

What if he's in pain? What if, given the crystals problem, holding his urine too long makes him hurt, and he's giving me big eye looks and getting up slowly because of that?

If that's true, it would mean that the crystals started before the growling (because that's when the behavior started) and that I need to figure out a solution.

What do people think -- does it sound plausible?

[ktmeyer]

Yes, it does sound plausible. Really, a dog with urinary issues should have their urine checked pretty frequently, just to be sure. Also, they should not hold it 8 hours at a time on a regular basis, that is just asking for stones to form. Can you have someone come let him out at lunch time?

[Momily]

We go to the vet tomorrow for a 2 week recheck. I'm hoping for good results.

I can't really pay for a dog walker midday and daycare, and he's pretty off the wall without daycare. I wondered about getting one of those fake grass "potty pads". A friend of mine has one (but she can't convince her dog to use it) and the first time he saw it he ran over and christened it, and the wall behind it. Do you think if I got one it would confuse him? Maybe I could put it in the shower so if he did get the wall it wouldn't matter.

Any other ideas?

[Momily]

One more question -- does the no 8 hours include overnight? He likes to go upstairs and go to sleep when DS does which is often 8 hours or more before I wake up. Are dogs like humans, in that they can "hold it" longer when they're asleep or should I be waking him up to pee? He wakes me up at 7 a.m. on the dot, unless I'm already up, so if I was up late I take him out and go back to sleep.

I guess I had kind of assumed that if he goes 8 hours at night without peeing, he could go 8 hours if he was sleeping in the day. With the every other day daycare I'm pretty sure he sleeps all day in my absence -- all that exercise wears him out.