Trying to do some research about what is actually in The Bible...

[Okapi]

specifically related to the devil/Satan, and I have a few questions. I'm hoping someone can help me figure some things out. Background: I have never studied The Bible before, only know the most common stories, and probably the watered-down versions at that. I have been reading the ASV version, though I also have access to the King James, and am open to checking out other texts (if any) that are easily available.

I know that some people/beings in The Bible are called by different names/nicknames, are there any others I should be looking for other then "Satan"?

So far, it's looking like the main places I should focus on are in the Book of Job and Revelations, is there anywhere else someone can recommend? Also, are there any spots where the text doesn't explicitly reference Satan, but it is sort of generally assumed to be him?

Where does it say that the snake in the garden of Eden was possessed by/working for the devil? Or is it one of those "he's was doing something bad, of course the devil was involved" sort of things? Or am I totally wrong in thinking that that is commonly accepted as fact?

The story I am most familiar with is that Satan was an angel who fought with/angered God and then was banished or cursed or something. Where is that part? Is it in Revelation (haven't gotten there yet, still trying to work out what's going on in Job)?

On that note, can anyone help me figure out what is happening in that conversation between Job and his friends? At one point I though Job was arguing for God and his friends against, but then it seemed like Job was arguing against God... I am not accustomed to the language, and it is really confusing. If anyone could point me towards a translation, I would appreciate it.

TIA for any insight.

Also, I am aware that it is probably a touchy subject for some, so if I have inadvertently written anything offensive, I appologize, and would be happy to re-word things more appropriately if you let me know.

[genifer]

Ok, Ill only be able to answer some of your questions, the others Im not so sure about without taking a good look myself. But off the top of my head I can say that as far as Job is concerned this is my understanding. Job was a man who loved God, trusted Him (thats what makes him 'righteous', thats the criteria for being righteous in biblical thought). Now, when all that mess happened to Job, his friends came to comfort him, also to help him figure out why what happened happened to him. At one point they say something like 'Stuff like this doesnt happen to a guy who hasnt committed some kind of sin'. The whole discourse, imo, between Job and his friends is about how they ALL try to understand what's going on but doing so without seeking God for answers. They go round and round in circles until Job takes it to God and says something like 'Ill take this up with God Himself!' and he does so, and I dont know if you got that far yet, but I find it fascinating that God doesnt give Him a reason for His suffering, He asks Job a few questions that Job cant answer and are in essence saying 'Do you really know me? Do you really know anything about who I am or what I can do? Were you there when I laid down the foundations of the earth?....' and so on. The theme, imo, is to demonstrate that God is completely sovereign, He even has authority over Satan . That ALL this we call life is about Him and who He is and not so much about us and who we are, except in our relationship with Him.

As for finding other stuff about Satan, have a look thru the Gospels, Jesus talks a little about Satan.

ok, here's a link to biblegateway.com

http://www.biblegateway.com/topical/...searchtype=all

i did a topical search for 'satan' and this is what came up. Ill try one for 'evil'.

http://www.biblegateway.com/topical/...pp=25&source=1

hope that helps.

[Okapi]

Thanks for the info, and the links. I hadn't seen that site, and it looks like it will be helpful. Also, Job's conversation makes so much more sense with your explanation in mind, that they are unsure of the answers themselves and just trying to talk things out. I will be looking into what Jesus had to say about him next.

Thanks again, you have been a big help

[Adele_Mommy]

Lucifer was Satan's name as an angel, so you should also search on that. It means "light bringer" by the way.

You should also keep in mind that there are two separate origins for much of what is commonally accepted or "known" about Satan/the Devil. One is the fallen angel Biblical stuff and the other is the demonizing of the gods of non-Christian religions. It is the latter that gives us images such as a devil with horns and a tale.

It is my understanding that the snake in the bible was neither possessed nor working for Satan, but was the devil himself in the form of a serpent (if you believe any of this of course). However, I don't believe Genesis actually says that anywhere. This is an interpretation of the Genesis story. The most explicit references to Satan are in Revelations, where he is referred to more than once as a serpent, so it is easy to see how a talking serpent who causes humans to be driven out of the Garden of Eden would natually be assumed to be the devil, but it never really says this in Genesis. It was just a snake.

Isaiah 14:12-15 tells the story of Lucifer's fall, but in context I think it is talking about Israel.

Also note that many different stories are conflated together as about Satan/Lucifer/The Devil. The snake in the Garden of Eden and Satan in Job and Lucifer in Isaiah, and Satan in Revelations are all taken together and flavorered with Dante's Inferno and other works to give us the modern Christian concept of the devil.

[cagnew]

Check out Matthew 4: 1-11. This is the passage about Christ being tempted in the desert by Satan.

As far as the snake in Eden, I think there are 2 things to think about conerning this. First, the Catholic Church compiled and interpreted the bible, as that was the only official christian church for the first 1500+ years after Christ. So, most of the beliefs associated with the various bible verses come from the Catholic interpretation. The other thing is that there is a very clear correlation between the serpent in Genesis and the serpent in Revelation. In Revelation 12:9 it says: "And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world...." So, it pretty much says here that the serpent in the beginning of the bible is the same serpent as at the end of the bible, and the serpent was satan.

By the way, I use the Douay-Rheims bible, in case you were wondering.

[katelove]

Hi,

It's really late at night here so I can't think straight enough to offer much but two things occur to me...

1. See if you can lay our hands on a copy of the Bible with easier language than the King James. NIV (New International Version) is pretty good I think.

2. Get a concordance which goes with the version of the Bible you are using. This will make it mich easier to search for specific words. Some come as two books in one with a Bible dictionary which can be useful as well.

All the best with your study and good for you for going to the source to get the information you're looking for.

Regards
Kate

[TzippityDoulah]

good thread! I don't have much to say but I'm enjoying it anyhow. (Satan/devil/evil has been something I've been thinking/studying a bit myself lately)

[mntnmom]

Most of the details of the Satan v God story we all hear, actually come from Paradise Lost by John Milton. The image of him as horned etc, comes from several of the old European nature gods. "Hell" isn't even in the Bible. It comes from an old Germanic version of the after life and was blended with the "lake of fire" in Revelation.
A lot of what we're taught isn't actually IN the Bible!

[guestmama9971]

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[Comtessa]

Originally Posted by mntnmom

Most of the details of the Satan v God story we all hear, actually come from Paradise Lost by John Milton. The image of him as horned etc, comes from several of the old European nature gods. "Hell" isn't even in the Bible. It comes from an old Germanic version of the after life and was blended with the "lake of fire" in Revelation.
A lot of what we're taught isn't actually IN the Bible!

I have been reading the ASV version, though I also have access to the King James, and am open to checking out other texts (if any) that are easily available.

I don't recommend either of the translations you're using, at least not for the purpose you describe. A really good Bible translation for academic study will have four things:

1) it should be a translation done by a committee of people from various religious traditions (so that you don't have the problems of any one individual or religion's bias in the translation) - The New American Bible takes a Catholic slant, where the New Revised Standard Version is more Protestant, but both are pretty good. The Jewish Publication Society has produced a very good scholarly version of the Hebrew Bible as well. There are some others, I can dig up a list if it would be helpful.

2) it has taken into account the most recent scholarship on the surviving texts and manuscripts that we have. New archaeological discoveries of the 19th and 20th centuries, such as the ancient scrolls found at Qumran, have helped understand the process by which the texts evolved, and given clues as to what the "original" or at least "earlier" texts might have been. The King James Version was an English translation done in 1611 - we've learned a lot about the text since then, and newer translations have that information included.

3) it includes a lot of footnotes that can help in the understanding of the text, especially where there are textual variants (i.e., explaining where some ancient manuscripts differ in a word or phrase which might impact the meaning of the passage) and allusions to other parts of Scripture (especially in places where the New Testament refers to the Old).

4) It uses clear, comprehensible modern English. Elizabethan English requires its own translation in order to be comprehensible to contemporary readers... using it for biblical study just confuses the meaning of the text, IMO.

My preferred text is the NRSV, which includes all of these things. It is not particularly beautiful in its rendering of the language - it's especially clumsy with Hebrew poetry and Greek songs - but it is consistent and tries to be very true to the original text.

So far, it's looking like the main places I should focus on are in the Book of Job and Revelations, is there anywhere else someone can recommend? Also, are there any spots where the text doesn't explicitly reference Satan, but it is sort of generally assumed to be him?

I wouldn't make that assumption. There are many places in the Bible where later theologians have supposed that Satan was responsible for certain bad things that happen to people. But that's theology, not Bible study. The serpent in the Garden of Eden, for example, is not ever described as Satan, nor even as evil. The worst epithet he gets is "crafty" (Gen. 3:1).

The only places in the Old Testament where Satan is named are the Book of Job and 1 Chronicles, and even in those books it isn't a proper name, but a title - ha-satan (pronounced "shah-TAHN"), which is best translated "the adversary" or "the accuser." His role in Job is as a member of God's Divine Council, and he is nowhere portrayed as God's adversary, but rather the adversary of humankind, or more specifically, of Job. He is even, you might say, "in cahoots" with God, here.

In fact, it was not until later in the Persian period that the Israelites started thinking of evil as something separate from God. Before that, God was understood as the source of good AND evil – the Adversary in Job can do no evil, you’ll notice, except with God’s permission. This happens often in the Old Testament (look at 1 Samuel 16:14, where Saul is troubled by “an evil spirit from the Lord”)

In the New Testament, there is a much clearer picture of the devil, who is usually identified with the "powers and principalities" of this world as contrasted with the Kingdom of God. (This is a nerve-wracking idea, if you think of all the ways in which we collaborate every day with this world's 'powers and principalities'!!!)

Where does it say that the snake in the garden of Eden was possessed by/working for the devil? Or is it one of those "he's was doing something bad, of course the devil was involved" sort of things? Or am I totally wrong in thinking that that is commonly accepted as fact?

The text itself says nothing of the kind. The serpent in Genesis is described as “crafty” – but not evil. And certainly there is no reference to the devil or anybody else. And if you notice, the serpent does nothing except tell Eve the truth! If we think of Satan as “father of lies,” the name doesn’t quite fit the role of the serpent here...!

It is accepted as fact that serpent=Satan because people have been interpreting the Bible for years and have made all sorts of assumptions based on their interpretations. The Book of Revelation uses the symbol of the dragon, the giant serpent, as a representation of Satan. That does not mean that the serpent in the Garden was necessarily intended as such as representation. We can choose to accept the assumptions of early interpreters, or not, but we should be clear that our understanding is based upon somebody else's interpretation of the text, not the text itself. I think it’s okay to interpret the serpent as a representation of evil, if we think that’s a defensible interpretation, but we should know that it’s an interpretation – it is not, in fact, what the text says.

The story I am most familiar with is that Satan was an angel who fought with/angered God and then was banished or cursed or something. Where is that part? Is it in Revelation (haven't gotten there yet, still trying to work out what's going on in Job)?

The myth of Lucifer as a fallen angel is actually an ancient Canaanite myth about the gods Helel and Shahar (Morning Star and Dawn) who fall from heaven as a result of rebellion. In Isaiah 14:12 the fall of the “Day Star, son of Dawn” into the Land of the Dead (Sheol) is referenced amidst a taunt against the King of Babylon. “Morning Star” in Latin is “Lucifer,” which is the reason that name emerged as a title for Satan. The later Jewish (and even later Christian) retelling of this story as the plight of the fallen angels is an appropriation of the earlier pagan myth. Like much of our understanding about hell and the devil, it isn’t precisely biblical in origin. (There’s nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as we can tell the difference!)

On that note, can anyone help me figure out what is happening in that conversation between Job and his friends? At one point I though Job was arguing for God and his friends against, but then it seemed like Job was arguing against God... I am not accustomed to the language, and it is really confusing. If anyone could point me towards a translation, I would appreciate it.

Believe it or not, there's a great "play-by-play" explanation of the whole book of Job on Wikipedia. I've found it helpful in the past (just don't tell my students that I researched my lecture using a Wikipedia article, they'll never forgive me!)

[bluebirdiemama]

This is my understanding of what happened in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis1:1-30, God creates the world, animals, plants, man.
vs. 31a "God saw all that He had made, and it was very good."
vs.27a "God created man in His own image" , and God is perfect, so when God created man he was perfect, but he also gave man free will.

Genesis 2:16-17, "God says, 'you can eat from any tree, besides that of the knowledge of good and evil, for if you eat of it you will surely die"

Genesis 3:1-3, "The crafty serpent asks Eve if God really said 'don't eat from any tree' and Eve replies that 'we can eat from any, except of that in the middle of the garden, or we will surely die'

Genesis 3:4-5, "The serpent says 'you will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'"

So God created a perfect world, with man and woman where conditions for them are perfect, and they are perfect, with the potential to remain perfect if they follow God's direction (God being perfect).

When God said "you will surely die", he meant spiritual death, separation from God, which is the definition of sin.
When the serpent said "you will not surely die", he meant you will not die a physical death. But he also said "you will be like God, knowing good and evil", which is affirmation that disobeying God would result in evil, because until then there was none in the world.
What Satan did was tempt with the promise that they would be like God, he lied to them and he deceived them.

Through out the Bible Satan is meantioned as the temptor, the liar, the deceiver. But he is also refered to indirectly any time there is mention of opposition to God. Not like he is behind every sin, but that he works to promote sin, whereas God works to promotes righteousness.
There is a lot of mention of Satan in the new testament, in the form of letters from the apostle Paul, who is writting to new believers to explain to them the deeper truths of God. You might find it interesting to read through. Here are some passages from the last few books before Revelation, not written by PAul

James 1:13-18 ... we are tempted when we look to the world for answers
James 3:13-18 ... wisdom from the devil, wisdom from God
1 Peter 5:8,9a ...your enemy prowls, looking for someone to devour
1 John 2:9-11 ...God is light, Satan darkness
1 John 2:15-17 ... World is temporary, things from God, eternal
1 John 4 ... knowing a spirit from God, or from falsehood (vs 1 "false prophets" can also be read "prophets of falsehood")
1 John 5:19 ...world under the control of the evil one

2 Peter 2 ...false teachers and ther destruction
2 Peter 3 ... "the day of the Lord"
These two you will find helpful to read before you read Revelation, as the book of Revelation can be VERY confusing.

Some people think Revelation is metaphorical, others think it is literal. Either way, it is about the "end times", or the "day of the Lord", when God will force people to either choose Him or choose wickedness.
Author Tim LaHaye has studies prophesy for 50 years and does a lot of study/talks/writting on the end times. A very good one is called Are We Living in the End Times? By Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
It explains what all the seals and trumpets, vials, and has a time chart.

Hope this helps in some way

[Okapi]

Oh, wow, so many great responses! This is exactly what I needed, and I really appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions (especially PP who mentioned that there are bibles written in plain English. I actually didn't know there was such a thing, other then the story books that are geared towards children ). I think I have even more questions now, but at least I know what direction to head in!

[zech13_9_goforgold]

The other thing to remember about the devil is that he is not equal with God. He is a created being, just slightly more powerful than us. However, he is nowhere near as powerful as God.

Also, I believe that Martin Luther (1500's) was the first to draw Satan with horns, a tail, and a pitchfork. He said that "the devil is a proud creature and cannot stand to be mocked." So, he drew the picture to make fun of him and show the protestants how little power Satan had (since the previous era had promoted fear).

It is true that the devil isn't specifically named in Genesis; however, his charisteristics were named which then became his names later in the Bible (Liar and the Father of Lies, the Advisary, the Deciever...) In Genesis 3, God tells the serpent, "...I will put emnity between yourself and the woman, between your seed and her seed. You will bite his heel but he will crush your head (paraphrased)." Those couple sentences are the thesis for the entire Bible. For that point on, a cosmic battle is drawn between mankind and the serpent (the Liar). God is the one who ultimately decides the outcome by sending himself to earth (like a champion, who fights in the place of another, weaker one). The seed of the woman is Jesus. Satan thought that by biting the heel of Jesus (the cruficition) that he could win the battle. However, Satan didn't know that the resurrection would be his ultimate demise. By resurrecting himself from the dead, Jesus put his heel on the devil's head. Satan's end is for sure, yet God is waiting before delivering the final blow. I urge you not to just research Satan, who's end is distruction, but to also read the Gospels and meet the victor of the battle, Jesus.

The world "devil" comes from the word which means deciever.

Most scholar's believe that Isaiah 14 has a double meaning (happens a lot in the Bible). One meaning refers to Satans fall from heaven and the other refers to the fall of Babylon. Some think that it may have a thrid meaning, referring to the fall of the antichrist.

Here are a couple articles I found:
Satanology
Bible doctrine on Satan, angels, and demons
Satan's Role in God's Plan (BTW- I wrote everything before reading any articles)

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

It is my understanding that the snake in the bible was neither possessed nor working for Satan, but was the devil himself in the form of a serpent (if you believe any of this of course). However, I don't believe Genesis actually says that anywhere. This is an interpretation of the Genesis story. The most explicit references to Satan are in Revelations, where he is referred to more than once as a serpent, so it is easy to see how a talking serpent who causes humans to be driven out of the Garden of Eden would natually be assumed to be the devil, but it never really says this in Genesis. It was just a snake.

If it was "just a snake," then it was just a talking snake with at least human intelligence, which would call for some explanation. If you do not believe in Genesis or regard it as a fairy tale of sorts, a talking snake might not seem to stand out. However, those who wrote and read the book did not believe in talking animals without some supernatural cause within the context of their beliefs in God. It was clearly not intended to be just a snake.

Originally Posted by cagnew

As far as the snake in Eden, I think there are 2 things to think about conerning this. First, the Catholic Church compiled and interpreted the bible, as that was the only official christian church for the first 1500+ years after Christ. So, most of the beliefs associated with the various bible verses come from the Catholic interpretation. The other thing is that there is a very clear correlation between the serpent in Genesis and the serpent in Revelation. In Revelation 12:9 it says: "And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world...." So, it pretty much says here that the serpent in the beginning of the bible is the same serpent as at the end of the bible, and the serpent was satan.

I think it is an excellent point, that the Christian Scriptures were compiled and understood in the context of the early Church. The more you know about that Church, the easier it is to understand the Bible.

Cagnew, I will take issue with one small point: that the Catholic Church "was the only official christian church for the first 1500+ years after Christ." For the first thousand years or so, there was only one Christian Church. (I know Roman Catholics consider that Church to be RC, but other denominations do not, so it was a very sect-specific comment.) Then, from the eleventh century until around 1500, there were two Christian denominations - Roman Catholic and Orthodox - who shared a common history, including the compilation of the Bible.

[MamaVolpe]

Just a few things to keep in mind. Remember that the Bible is a collection of many writing by many different authors over many years. So the usage of words vary from chapter to chapter depending on the authors, language, where he lived, his own beliefs, the time in which he wrote. So what Satan is like in Job is going to be very different from Satan in Revelations. The other thing to keep in mind it that their are many other writings, oral histories and traditions that existed before the bible that the authors of the bible may have known or been referencing when they did their own writings and with out studying pre/early christian history it makes it hard to understand them in the right context or with the definetions the author intended. So feel free to expand your search beyond the Bible to include Jewish and other writings of the same time and place.

[lolar2]

You might also find it useful to get your hands on an Oxford Annotated Bible. This uses the NRSV translation and it contains a lot cross-references and information. Also there are some annotated Jewish translations into English of the Tanakh (what Christians call the Old Testament) which give a Jewish perspective on Job, etc.

[bluebirdiemama]

Just thought of these radio broadcasts I heard a while back and thought they might be useful to you while you are reading Revelation.
http://www.reviveourhearts.com/searc...ion+more:radio
In these studies, Nancy is taking the perspective that each letter to the ancient churches are applicable to the Christian body during a specific time frame. Like, the letter to church of Laodicea is a letter to the ancient church in Laodicea, but also a letter to all Christians during the very last period of time before what happens in ch. 4, which is the beginning of the judgement.

Also, from reading the work of Tim LaHaye, and from a couple other sources that I am not confident of their names right now, I can tell you that one perspective of the "end times" is that we are in the "church of philadelphia" period. (I don't know if this is what Nancy says in her broadcast)

And when Jesus/God says in vs. 10 (ch.3) " Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."
This hour of trial is seen as tribulation, and Jesus keeping some from it it seen as the rapture. "Those who live on the earth" can also be read "those who belong to this world", and meaning, "those who do not belong to God".
And so stating that Jesus will take those who are His out of this world and then put the rest to trial before judgement. ei, the seals, the trumpets and the vials/bowls are all judgements from God that will come down and inflicts those who have not given themselves to God, because the end is coming and He wants people to make a decision between Him and the world.

This is one perspective and maybe it will help you. I haven't studied much on the viewpoint that there is no rapture before tribulation. I just haven't gotten there yet.
I would be very interested to know what you find as you are studying, so I can apply it to my own Revelation can be very confusing