Questions about Permanent Legal Guardianship (long)

[MrsH]

Hi All,

My niece and nephew have lived with my husband and me for the past year and a half. Our arrangements with my sister (the kids' mom) have all been outside of the system. The children were never removed from the home, though they were involved in the system. I personally believe they would have been removed from the home had my husband and I not taken them, with the express consent and support of their mother. We have a power of attorney permitting us to care for them, but that's it.

We have been talking with their mom about making this a permanent arrangement, and she has reached a point where she feels this makes sense and plans to support that. We've talked both about adopting and permanent legal guardianship - she leans towards the latter. Enter: their father, who has shared legal custody with the mom. Hew as not in touch with the kids at the time they came to live with us, but has since called many weekends and visited twice. He is strongly opposed b/c he hopes to have the children (or at least the eldest) at some point, maybe in a couple of years.

All this to say, we are trying to identify pros and cons, and are getting stuck on the PLG option. It's been hard to research b/c we're so out of the system. I'm hoping to get some guidance on answering any of our questions below. Thank you so much! We're in Massachusetts, and the kids are 7.5 and almost 4.

• any articles/research showing the need for kids to have stability and not be bounced around. Dad keeps mentioning how military families move around a lot and nobody thinks that's bad for the kids. But to me, they're not the same at all.
• currently, the dad pays child support. Would both parents be court-ordered to pay child support or is that case by case?
• permanent guardianship - do we have responsibilities towards birth parents or the court?
• It sounds like there would be a visitation agreement for the birth parents. Any idea what that typically looks like? Specifically, whether we'd have to drive them to see folks like their birth dad in NJ, etc.
• Under permanent guardianship, we're unsure how to insure the kids. It looks like they'd have to be adopted to go on our plan, and our income exceeds the masshealth guidelines.
• permanent guardianship ends at age 18. How does that affect college loans? Does it affect anything else? We intend to parent these kids for the rest of their lives (I realize that looks completely different as they get older!)

[Polliwog]

I've got a friend who has permanent legal guardianship of a child who came to her as a foster placement. PLG is hard. They hope to adopt the child. He's lived with them since he was an infant and is now 3 1/2.

The birth mother has never been ordered to pay child support. They are considering taking her to court to do so but they are hoping she'll relinquish at some point. They are consulting with a lawyer about their options. She's got a certain number of visitation hours every quarter. She works with the birth mother to arrange the visitation. I would assume that you would be able to work together to decide a visitation plan (location, supervised/unsupervised, etc.) Their child receives Medicaid but also have him on their insurance (i.e using Medicaid as a secondary.)

[heatherdeg]

PLG differs by the state--in name and in what goes with it. In NJ, it's called KLG (whether you're actually related or not) and the courts can order child support (I'm not sure how often parents are let off the hook for it). And if a parent fails to pay it for 6 months and/or doesn't visit for 6 months, the guardian can petition the court to adopt the child. By the same token, the birthparent can petition the court at any time to get their children out of guardianship.

On the other hand, in TX it's called conservatorship and they have multiple kinds. I have yet to see a version where the parents pay child support nor any versions that enable the "conservator" (the guardian) to petition the court to adopt.

Dh and I have been put in a position to consider this and which state's jurisdiction it falls under will play heavily into whether we would even consider it at all--but either way, we are not likely to. Like Polliwog, I know two families involved in guardianship and it's extremely difficult. I've watched one of them love and care for 3 children for most of their lives with birthmom being involved when she feels like it--and my friend can't do much about it (although they are currently in court because it's gotten pretty bad). It's EXTREMELY hard on the kids; and when you love the kids, that obviously translates into difficulty for you.

Most health insurance companies WILL let you cover a legal guardian. We had that issue come up with a former foster child and they clarified that a legal guardianship status would qualify for coverage--but it took some supervisory investigating on the health insurance side.

And I haven't seen a version of guardianship where the kids DON'T have visitation with the parents because it seems like guardianship is the only way to allow the parents to retain their parental rights without having the kids directly in their care. If they weren't going to have visitation, you could just as well adopt them--ya know? So I would be surprised if that wasn't part of the deal. And here is where a MAJOR problem is for us: in our case, we don't want to do visits if mom is under the influence--but testing her beforehand becomes OUR problem and so do the logistics of the visits. We haven't gotten into it deep enough to know if the court spells out who's responsible for transports and/or where the visits take place and whether or not we get to "bargain" about it--ya know?

Also, I get what you're saying about military kids moving a lot; but tons of military kids do and you don't hear about that population of kids having a particular set of problems because of the moves. We have two friends who were "Army brats" and to be honest, they don't really seem to have been affected by it (and one moved more frequently than I thought was possible with the military). I'm not sure it's a battle you'd win given the number of military families that exist and what that would say about their lives.

[MrsH]

Thank you both for your thoughts, helpful to think about. We've already had issues with birthdad being in and out of the picture, which is what it makes it so frustrating that he's the one not open to the idea of establishing permanency for the kids! We'd definitely want visits, but we don't want to be hauling it to NJ every month (he can come here, to MA, in my opinion).

And while he compares his kids' moving around to military kids, my point is that it seems completely different. Military families move as a complete family unit, whereas these kids have been shuffled between at least 5 or 6 different family/caretaker arrangements, as well as at least a dozen different apartment. The eldest had been in two different preschools and two different kindergartens before coming to us, that's 4 schools in 2 years! It just seems different and I imagine there's some research about that type of instability.

Thanks!

[Smithie]

It sounds like all four adults in this situation are at least on speaking terms, so what I'd suggest is that all four of you go together to meet with a person who specializes in family law in MA. That way you could find out what the various legal options are, in a forum where all interested parties could raise their questions and concerns directly, without playing telephone through each other. It's impossible to make a plan when nobody is exactly sure what each choice entails.

And sometimes it's easier to hear a hard truth from a dispassionate third party. I suspect that there are a lot of hard truths to be faced in this case - on the parents' side, that they must relinquish the children if they are never going to be in a position to care for them, and on your side, that the father has the option to take custody of them rather than relinquishing them.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by MrsH

And while he compares his kids' moving around to military kids, my point is that it seems completely different. Military families move as a complete family unit, whereas these kids have been shuffled between at least 5 or 6 different family/caretaker arrangements, as well as at least a dozen different apartment. The eldest had been in two different preschools and two different kindergartens before coming to us, that's 4 schools in 2 years! It just seems different and I imagine there's some research about that type of instability.

Oh! I went back and re-read your initial post to see if I misunderstood, but it did look like this was an actual military family.

What you're describing is definitely different. If you Google "Reactive Attachment Disorder" you will find PLENTY of information on what happens with a life like you're describing--and it is NOT GOOD.

Also... totally agreeing with Smithie's recommendations.

[Momily]

The "Permanent" part of PLG is a misnomer, at least here. In my area it just means that the case is closed until someone reopens it. Birthmom or birthdad can come back at any point, and try and demonstrate that they are ready to parent. I had a little boy in my class who was removed at 6 months with two broken legs. At 8, 6 years after they went to PLG birthmom petitioned for custody and won over the aunt who had had him all those years and assumed that permanent meant forever.

Also here, if you move across state lines (very common as where I live there's a state line between city and suburbs) your child is still the educational responsibility of the jurisdiction that has "custody" and you need to either drive them back for school or arrange a system where the sending state pays tuition.

If adoption is an option, I think it's a better choice, although it sounds like it might not be if Dad is in the picture.

[Polliwog]

In my state that would be plain old legal guardianship. Permanent legal guardianship here is definitely permanent. In my friend's case, the child's birth mother would have to take them to court and prove that the guardians are unfit. In that extremely unlikely event, the judge would have to award custody to either the birthparents (if fit) or to another legal guardian.

And here, the guardians get to make all legal decisions for the child. The birth parents just get visitation (if awarded by the judge.)

[MommyKelly]

We are the legal guardians of my cousins 2 children. They have been here 18 mo and are now 7 and 3.

We hold all the cards. I dont have to let bio mom talk to them on the phone, give her my address, NOTHING. ( Not that she calls anyways )

She was told in the beginning if she wants visits she needs to take us to court.

It is in our custody papers she needs to pay support, but we would have to go to court and file for it. She is in another state and not working so it is not worth it anyways. Plus we do not want anything from her.