Straddling two worlds: UP but with rules (long-ish)

[NellieKatz]

My child (6 y.o. boy) thinks he's entitled to sit around and do nothing and demand things all day. Bark, complain, demand.

But then if we do anything in response to it, it comes across all conditional and punish-y and tit-for-tat. Which we don't want, because I think it fosters a retaliatory environment. Seriously. He does it back to us when WE do something he doesn't like. (we were not always trying to be such fair parents; we were very punish-y a few years back)

We hate this dynamic. If we (the adults) say to each other: hey can you help with this, or dinner's coming out, can you set the table....anything like that, we of course do it for each other. But if we ask our SON, then we get attitude and super-snarkiness.

We've had the talk about being one family and we all help out....and that when he was a baby we had to do everything for him, but now he's very capable and can do various things. Just attitude.

Maybe he's interpreting it as criticism but I am sorry.....I am not going to raise a kid who doesn't know how to help out. We're homeschoolers but on the occasions that he takes a class outside the home, he's very helpful with the teachers and is cooperative. It's here that we have the problem.

So I am sure it's us.

But just now, he hollered from the bathroom that the toilet paper is almost gone. He blamed it (of course) on the imaginary characters that he created for play, the Dastardly Dogs. (he blames EVERYTHING on the dastardly dogs, when he stubs his toe, when he forgets something, when he does something we correct him on). I started to say "I don't know what to say....this is Mama's bathroom and ladies use more toilet paper than guys....so if you want a bathroom....." I was about to suggest that if he wants a bathroom that doesn't run through paper quickly, that he use the one downstairs in "Daddy's room" (the basement) but he kept cutting me off, making gibberish sounds, the equivalent of bla bla bla. I tried again to complete my sentence; again the cutting off...so I just walked away.

A few minutes later after he came out of the bathroom I asked in a quiet voice, "Can I finish my sentence now?" "NO" he said and kept walking out of the room.

OK great. I don't get it.

I mean, as I type this I can read it through your eyes, and I can see that my son probably feels criticized too much. OK, but what to do? Seriously, the only thing we really badger him about it "clean up after yourself" (versus leaving a trail of plates and cups wherever he goes), and "really; it's time to go...." (he refuses to tell time and waits till the last minute to get dressed for anywhere, no matter how much lead time we allow).

He has next to no responsibilities around the house. We'd like him to have some, and we think it would help his self-esteem to be useful, but the attitude and sassing back is not needed. It creates a combative environment. I resist the notion that if we don't like him crabbing about picking up his plates off the couch (yes, the couch), then we should just stop asking him to.

That is why I called this post "straddling two worlds." Sometimes with UP, it appears that the adults are afraid to set ANY rules or limits, and it seems that just creates a monster. So maybe we are not UP, but we learned a lot from UP and have really tried to change. But again, we don't want to be doormats raising a kid who feels entitled in the most snarky way.

Background: I was raised VERY conditionally and under very strict circumstances. It's hard to find that middle ground between being a doormat and being authoritarian...neither of which we want to be.

thanks

[BetsyNY]

I'm thinking about the six-year-olds I know and they're not expected to do a whole lot around the house in terms of chores...perhaps you see your son this way (complaining, lazy, entitled) and he knows it, and he's living up to it.

Frankly, I'm having a hard time understanding what the problem is--if he called and told you the bathroom was running out of toilet paper, why wouldn't you just...I don't know, go get a roll of toilet paper for the bathroom?

It seems that what you're doing isn't working...how about stopping with your expectations? Attend to his needs with love, emphasize on asking politely. If he sees that you feel good about meeting his needs (doesn't sound like you do feel good about it now), maybe he'll see helping around the house in a new light.

[webjefita]

My 6yo boy is a little bit more demanding and less eager to help than my 3 yo boy. I chalk it up to being the firstborn and having had too much done for him for the first few years, and my having made mistakes along the way. I feel like I'm on the right path now, though. Whenever I start to feel upset, I just pivot, focus on what I want (to feel, or what I want him to do). I make sure I am modelling that work in general can be joyful and pleasant. If I were to nag and coerce, that is sending the message that this is horrible stuff that you have to do in order to get on to other more pleasant things.

Whenever I get confused about this stuff, I ask myself a question like, "Is this different from learning to read? Or learning to walk?" Learning to pick up after yourself is just a natural part of life, it's not (or doesn't have to be) drudgery. I don't have to constantly correct, like I would not constantly correct him while he's trying to read or he would pretty soon stop trying, right? So I just keep on modelling, expecting, being light hearted about it. I always use specific praise when I do notice he remembered to take his plate or clean up the bathroom. Usually I try to focus on giving information ("When I finish brushing my teeth, I rinse my brush and put it here." I expect him to do the same and he does, but I don't nag if he doesn't).

Still, I'm not always happy about his attitude and I sometimes forget to adjust my attitude. It's okay. It's all a work in progress. His standards are not the same as mine, and he has many years to learn yet.

Also, 6 years old is the age when their imaginations take off and they tend to get really dreamy and distractible. So paying less attention to their environment because they're daydreaming can be a normal, temporary phase. GL!

[NellieKatz]

Originally Posted by BetsyNY

Frankly, I'm having a hard time understanding what the problem is--if he called and told you the bathroom was running out of toilet paper, why wouldn't you just...I don't know, go get a roll of toilet paper for the bathroom?

I would normally just go and get him one, of course! He's actually bailed me out in that area quite a few times. But he was complaining about why it ran out so fast.

What we were talking about wasn't so much the point of my bringing it up, as the tone in which it was brought up, etc etc.

And on your other point I don't think it's fair to assume I don't want to meet his needs. That's extrapolating a bit from what I said. There are needs and there are wants. For example, if I am sick and can't get up and get my own breakfast, you can bet I will ask a family member to get it. That would be a need. But it would never cross my mind on a regular day to bark at my husband "Get me my breakfast!" or "Where is my breakfast?" That would not only be a want, but a jerky way to go about getting it.

[NellieKatz]

Thanks, webjefita. Though I think you might not always be right about it being something they learn naturally, like walking or reading. My husband is a living example of how a person can go all the way through life leaving a trail of open drawers and cabinets, dirty plates, and just-stepped-out of clothing behind him for others to clean up.

Yes, go right ahead everyone...you would be observant and correct if you saw the correlation between this issue with my husband and my issue with my son.

My son and husband both ARE dreamers and creators (art and music run in our family) and though I am as well, I am the only one of the three who feels compelled to stave off squalor and hoarded heaps. So it's a factor in how I see things, yes.

Sometimes I just want to see a table surface. Call me crazy.

[nina_yyc]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz

Yes, go right ahead everyone...you would be observant and correct if you saw the correlation between this issue with my husband and my issue with my son.

Well...modeling IS a huge part of discipline. I think I see why you feel like you're beating your head against the wall.

[joanna0707]

My DS is 27 mo so it's hard for me to give advice about older children but I'll try anyway.

How about pretending that you don't notice the tone of his voice, you can be more positive and just say things like "Did Dastardly Dogs use all the paper? Let's go get more paper, hopefully they won't use it again so fast this time", try to play his game. When it's time to clean up you can say " Let's call the Dastardly Dogs, I'm sure they'd like to help us clean up" etc.

What are your thoughts about playful parenting? I bet it will be great for your son. In fact, there is a new thread about PP, many games are about clean up, you can try that, kids love it when parents use humor instead of demands.

[SiobhanAoife]

Originally Posted by webjefita

I always use specific praise when I do notice he remembered to take his plate or clean up the bathroom.

OK, I am very new to the entire topic of unconditional parenting, so please don't take offense when I ask what may well be a very stupid question: isn't praise with the goal of behavior modification one of the things that unconditional parenting speaks against? I probably just don't understand, I am certain that I have not fully grasped UP yet, but if you could speak to this, I am sure that I would be educated by the discussion. Thanks so much.

[LynnS6]

I think there are a couple of issues going on here that I can see:

Issue 1: Your son is rude and snarky. This is developmentally fairly common with children this age. However, that doesn't mean it's OK with me. So, my job is to teach my children how to be more polite. When my kids say something rudely, I look at them and say "That was rude. Please say it more politely."

I was criticized a lot as a kid for being 'sassy', but it just infuriated me that they wouldn't listen to my meaning. So, I'm not criticizing the content, just the tone. If they can't rephrase, I model for them. (I've even done this with neighbor kids who hang out at our house a lot.)

Issue 2: Your son doesn't help out around the house. While my kids don't do a lot, they do help around the house. The key for us is to have a routine where it gets done. For example, after dinner, we all do 15 minutes of chores together. I think that having every member of the family contribute to the running of the household is important.

We've made it clear when it's chore time that it doesn't make a difference who made the mess, the family needs it cleaned up, and so as a member of the family, you get to help. So, my kids know how to start a load of laundry, put laundry in the dryer, fold it and put it away, clean the sinks and the bathtub, sweep floors, mop floors, change sheets, dust, vacuum and put stuff away. Now, they don't do a great job, but the more they do, the better they get.

Nothing else happens until the chores are done. Yes, the kids whine and complain. But they get done. And the more we do it, the less we yell. It does require a heck of a lot of monitoring and psychological energy to keep them on task.

The keys for success are: don't delay after dinner - once they get playing, they don't want to be interrupted for chores (heck, neither do I!), give the kids very very specific chores (pick up 5 things, clean sinks in bathroom, put away all the shoes), and we all do it together. I write the chores out on craft sticks (aka popsicle sticks), and rotate them as needed. The kids draw them out of the bag, and either do them by themselves (pick up 5 things in your room) or we do them together (vacuum the basement.) This system also works well for my dh, who is by nature not very neat and could overlook large piles of junk in his way. I know that I get at least 15 minutes of his time every day to keep the paths clear.

You don't have to have our system, but having it part of a routine is crucial. Having it be at a time when you're not interrupting something else is also important. It's also more respectful of my kids, I think. I'm not asking them to drop everything that's important to them to do something that's important to me.

Issue #3: Boundaries vs. Conditional Love
This is the tricky one, I think. I like the concept of UP. I understand that a lot of traditional discipline is indeed conditional. But I also know that I function better and my kids function better when we have boundaries.

Sometimes enforcing those boundaries can feel conditional. For that, I'm going to have to faith that sending my dd to her room after she's whined for 10 minutes straight is not conditional love. She just doesn't get to make the rest of the family miserable. (And she can.) She's not in a position developmentally where she can easily get ahold of her strong emotions, and stepping away from the family gives her a chance to do that. Consequences to your actions (even if they're not natural ones) aren't necessarily conditional.

If you've gotten this far:
For the cutting you off, I'd tell him that was rude and ask him to wait until you finish. If he doesn't, I'd walk away and tell him later that I don't like it when I'm interrupted.

For the getting ready to go: Set a timer for 5 minutes before you have to leave (or 10 or however long it takes him to get dressed). We did that with our kids starting when they were small. We still do it because it's a helpful reminder for everyone (even adults who tend to get distracted too!). And it removes a ton of nagging.

[mamazee]

Using UP doesn't mean giving up boundaries. It's about how you handle boundaries. If you use punishment, threats of punishment, rewards, bribes, sticker charts, or other behavioral tools, then it isn't UP. But simply saying "this has to happen right now" without threats or punishment or other behavioral tools is UP. I would suggest the book "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen". I haven't read it in a while so I can't promise it's 100% aligned with Alfie Kohn, but it's pretty close and at least most of that should help. They have a number of techniques of how to tell kids what you need to get things happening.

I cant' remember all the techniques off my head. I see Dr. Sears has a lot of good suggestions, though at least "if you hit you sit" sounds like punishment. but many of them should help: http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t061000.asp

Oh, I see a good pdf file when I google "how to talks so kids will listen" but I can't figure out how to paste a link here. Try this: http://web.me.com/chickiebumlicker/i...ill-listen.pdf

[NellieKatz]

There are days when I am intelligent enough to see these things, and there are days when the wheels come off the wagon. Yesterday was one of the latter sort.

All the things you guys have said make sense and what's more, even WE were doing better last night and finding solutions.

To answer a question from someone, I have read Playful Parenting and liked some of what I read. But I have a constitutional resistance to using it to solve some things, because I am (like it or not) basically a serious person, even though I have a great sense of humor. That makes no sense, but anyway my son is the same way. I guess that is a way of saying that we like to be taken seriously and not be made light of. Some of that playful stuff is appropriate; some rubs me the wrong way.

But I have to admit, last night I accidentally fell right into some of it. He was whining loudly about some minor thing and sort of reflexively I imitiated his whining but took it up a notch, running through the living room acting as though perhaps my hair were on fire. Total over dramatization. Well he thought it was the funniest thing ever. So that was pretty good; it defused a potential bad moment.

The solutions come almost as fast as the problems around here, and when I come here whining it can be truly embarrassing because upon a 2nd reading, I often solve my own problem right alongside you guys.

Well....I haven't had my morning coffee yet. Gotta go. Hope I was coherent just then..nothing happens before coffee......

[BetsyNY]

Just to be clear--when I say meeting his needs with love, I mean picking up that plate, or doing the things that you think he should be doing. That's all. Not implying neglect or anything else.

[NellieKatz]

Well I appreciate the rephrasing, but you are still calling it a need. And worse yet, implying that I don't meet his needs with love.

This would open up a good discussion about what exactly IS a need, and also to revisit the original question, which was less about doing for my son and more about HIS resistance to do anything and his attitude about pitching in.

For example, this morning Daddy and I had toast. DS was on the couch (he's a late riser...slow to get going). At some point DS said he wanted some oatmeal. I didn't hesitate.

His NEED is for a healthy breakfast. He is never deprived of this. But I resist the notion that he can order ANY thing he wants to eat, ANY time, cooked ANY way he wants with ANY amount of attitude or rudeness.

We insist on a certain level of decency.

He is a sweet boy. I am not here to slam my boy. He's a very good kid, but this is just a budding new habit or something that I'm trying to show him is not acceptable. And also what I'm doing here is fleshing out with you the notion of ANY demand being labeled a need, and therefore my not doing it being a failure to meet his needs.

Now you may say that he has a NEED to learn about how to deal with others, and a gentle, "modeling" approach is the best way for him to learn it. Possible. I am open to learning new methods.

I have an update but I have to leave....time for church...more later....

[quelindo]

I just wrote a separate post about a book that I think might be helpful -- it's called "Honey I Wrecked the Kids" by Alyson Schafer. She would say that your son is not getting one of his needs met and when you can figure out what that need is (she offers lots of examples and information on doing just that) you can address it and the behavior will eventually stop.

[NellieKatz]

That is a great book title. Seriously, that's first and foremost in my mind. When I was raised by being so judged, criticized, corrected and punished.....to try and do otherwise is like being dropped into a new country without ever having HEARD of their language, never mind having learned it!!

That's a good metaphor. I hadn't thought of it till just now. The description of how hard this is for me is like culture shock. Leaving what I know, in favor of something that's different that I want, but which I have no idea how to accomplish. I constantly have to try and find "the natives" (or the locals, whatever you want to call them...in this "new world" of peaceful parenting) who are willing to try and talk to me and explain stuff to me which is so obvious to them, but which we just cannot see. I am grateful to all the people who DO help, and who DO make good suggestions instead of just bashing me over the head for my errors. I can be a great learner when not on the defensive. I suppose that's how my son feels (see? I'm learning as I type! there's hope!)

Obviously we ARE doing many things right in the new direction we've set, but as you can see here by my painfully obvious parenting flaws, it's not a perfect science. Worse yet, since he was not raised since birth with the benefit of this belated wisdom, he has experienced being judged and so therefore does exhibit these provoking behaviors from time to time, whereas a child who had ALWAYS been raised wisely and peacefully would just not have them. So in a sense we are trying not to do the wrong thing AND simultaneously trying to steer out of a skid that's of our own making.
(can you tell I like metaphors?)

I am a writer and you can bet this is going to be the subject of an article that I will write this year. Actually it's already in process, but every day I seem to get another angle, another insight into the complexity of the new journey.

[mamazee]

I think the key with UP is, when there is a behavior problem (and there are behavior problems at times with all kids) to move from "doing to" to "working with". So if a kid has an attitude, instead of doing something to them to make them stop, try to work with them to figure out what's wrong. Why are they having this attitude? Sometimes it's just an age or something, but very often there's a reason behind behavior. Tell them what you need, ask what they're looking for, and work together to find a solution. You can have firm boundaries. "Riding your bike in the middle of the street is not an option." But still try to find some common ground. "I understand you want more freedom and more space to ride your bike. Since you can't ride in the street because it isn't safe, let's try to think of some other places you can ride that are safe but where you have more space and freedom." Acknowledge their needs as well.

As for the imaginary friend thing, I've always just worked with it. "Well you and the Dastardly Dogs can work on this while I go work on dinner. Let me know when you all get done!" Said in a playful way. "Wow, those Dastardly Dogs sure use a lot of toilet paper. Maybe we should start letting them out back when they need to do their business?" LOL. Anyway, my dd loves that kind of imaginary play too and it can be fun. Maybe get them involved. "Do the Dastardly Dogs have any idea how we can fix this?"

Also, I know when we want other adults to do something for us, we ask them, and we understand that if they can they will help. But kids are very literal and hear that as a full request, and sometimes just chaging from, "Will you do this for me please" to "I need you to do this, please" can help.

[quelindo]

NellieKatz, I completely understand where you're coming from. I remember my dad actually saying, "This is not a democracy!" and "Your opinion doesn't matter." My parents were both very cold, never saying "I love you" or "I'm proud of you" or anything encouraging at all. I never felt like they were on my side or that I could count on them if I needed them.

I read UP when my son (now 4.5) was a baby and it SO resonated with me. It really shed a lot of light on my own childhood and made me think about how I wanted to raise my son. And it was fairly easy to follow for the first few years -- stop saying "Good job!" and treat my son with respect. But now that he's four he's started hitting us, he won't help clean up, etc., and I don't know how to handle it. I'm really hoping the book I mentioned will help, because I *do* feel at times like I screwed up somewhere.

[NellieKatz]

I agree with the "work with" -- absolutely! And when I go in and speak with him to find out what's going on, or to explain why I asked for something, he will make faces, use a nyah-nyah pouty-type voice, or in some other way try and shut me down.

Believe me, the reason this is vexing is I don't WANT a "doing-to" approach but it's when I try being reasonable, discussing, explaining, and get the in-your-face disrespect stuff, it is truly baffling and frustrating.

But on the other hand, very often when we talk about it later, he indicates that he gets it. So a certain amount of it is defensiveness. If he feels put on the defensive, he mopes back at me. So that makes sense.

On the way to church today it really came to me that I don't like feeling judged either, and if he feels that way I totally get it.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by BetsyNY

I'm thinking about the six-year-olds I know and they're not expected to do a whole lot around the house in terms of chores...perhaps you see your son this way (complaining, lazy, entitled) and he knows it, and he's living up to it.

Frankly, I'm having a hard time understanding what the problem is--if he called and told you the bathroom was running out of toilet paper, why wouldn't you just...I don't know, go get a roll of toilet paper for the bathroom?

It seems that what you're doing isn't working...how about stopping with your expectations? Attend to his needs with love, emphasize on asking politely. If he sees that you feel good about meeting his needs (doesn't sound like you do feel good about it now), maybe he'll see helping around the house in a new light.

I agree with this. I also don't think UP requires not setting limits. In Alfie Kohn's book he talks about situations that imply limits have been set. In one example I believe he talks about letting kids know that staying up past their bedtime or eating on the couch is an exception to the rues. He seems to advocate thoughtful limits that are actually needed for the child and family to function happily rather than arbitrary ones that are there for no actual reason.

Perhaps your son is tired of hearing a lecture about things every time he wants toilet paper or some other little thing that you can easily either give him or tell him he can't have at the moment. Lectures are annoying. You can't expect him to take you seriously when you talk to him about being respectful if you also make being low on toilet paper a big deal worthy of a lecture and a fight.

[joanna0707]

Pam Leo in her book "Connection Parenting" says that children often expierience disconnection, by reconnecting we can stop the unwanted behavior. Are you spending a lot of one-on-one time with your DS, cuddling etc. ? Did anything change lately? Did you try to analize why and when the unwanted behavior started and what could be the possible cause?