Pool Breastfeeding Gets Apology

[annettemarie]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...r-gets-apology

A Newmarket pool owner has agreed to make a $2,000 donation to a women's shelter and post signs saying she will allow breastfeeding in and around the water after an altercation with a nursing mom that ended up in front of Ontario's Human Rights Tribunal.

[PatioGardener]

Thanks so much for posting that!

The Ontario Breastfeeding slogan is "Anytime. Anywhere."

The Ontario Human Rights Commission's website says:

"You have rights as a nursing mother. For example, you have the right to breastfeed a child in a public area. No one should prevent you from nursing your child simply because you are in a public area. They should not ask you to “cover up”, disturb you, or ask you to move to another area that is more “discreet”." http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/issues/pregnancy

[St. Margaret]

Thanks for that. I get that she's sort of just trying to figure out her responsibilities, but the major breakdown in her thought process is-- mother's milk is going ot be in the pool no matter what! BFing moms swim, and it's not like the milk is sealed inside us. She's seeing BM as food and getting stuck on that, but does she stop people with noses or other body parts with fluids from getting in the pool? So there's still a need for better awareness and normalization obviously.

[CndThinker]

I'm glad the pool owner realized that she has no basis to tell a mother to leave the pool if he is breastfeeding.

As you may have notice, she still "blames" the Ministry of Health of Ontario for not clarifying that the "no food or drink" rule does not apply to breast milk.

I don't know if the Ministry will ever say anything, as any law is made to restrict actions, and not to say what is allowed. For instance, you don't need a law to say that you can brush your teeth after you get up everyday...

I am wondering if any other Health Ministers in US and Canada have already provided written statements about this. I know that this has been challenged in Calgary and the result was was very positive in the attached document.
http://www.breastfeedingalberta.ca/f...PC-MainDoc.pdf

This has also been challenged in Ontario in 2001, and the City of Hamilton and city was forced to adopt new policy at its pools. See the link below.
http://www.thestar.com/comment/colum...article/535969

I am wondering if there is any feedback that you can share, or questions you can ask to the pool regulators in your community. I think it is important to receive written opinions, so they can be challenged to the point that the truth is revealed. I believe the truth is that as our society is not mature enough to deal with exposed breasts, we should take pro-active actions to encourage that mothers are welcome to breastfeed in public.

Not only our children, but we all benefit from mothers breastfeeding, so why don't we work together to achieve this this goal?

[khaoskat]

I don't think it is a food/eating/drinking issue, personally. I think people should focus more on the safety aspects. If it is an older child (like toddler on up), it is not as much of a safety issue as they can generally fend for themselves a bit more, but a baby to me is totally different.

But to me one of safety.
1) if you are sitting on the stairs (this would have to depend upon how big the stair case is), you could be creating a safety hazard not by bf'ing per se, but by blocking a means of getting in/out of the pool.
2) I would be to fearful that someone would bump into me and knock the baby out of my arms, or that kids around the area I am sitting would be splashing and getting us soaking wet with water and potentially getting it into baby's face so that s/he snorts in a big nose full while nursing and not be able to breath.

If you are sitting on the side of the pool, with your feet or lower legs dangling in, it might be different, but to actually be in the water for me is more of a general safety issue for the baby.

I have had DD2 in a life jacket (one we purchased, so we knew it was good/approved, etc), and I thank goodness for that life jacket being on her. I was sitting on a water ride (like one of those lazy rivers where you are just laying in a tube floating along a path) and had dd jump off me at 9 months of age. There were lots of people and rafts/tubes, but the life jacket kept her up and the guy who was behind me got her under her arms and pushed her back to me. But if he had not been quick thinking, she would have been run over by him and numerous others behind her.

[MamaMelis]

That is great that if that person really longs to breast feed in a pool she can now do so!

Personally it is soooo not for me. I am just fine sitting in the shade poolside to nurse my babes, so that they and I can feel safe and relaxed while nursing

The idea of nursing a newborn while tens of toddlers and kids jump and frolic and splash around me at our public pool is just so not appealing to me. I would worry too much to enjoy it.

[CndThinker]

khaoskat, it is amazing how there are many different topics around this issue.

The owner of this specific pool mentioned pool fouling, food or drink rules, possibility of the baby spitting, body fluids, but never a safety issue. I guess this may be because this mother was sitting with two other people on the stairs, and only she was the one told to leave the pool. She just did not stop socializing when she decided to breastfeed her baby!

Your point is valid, though. Any person sitting at small stairs may cause safety hazards, if this is critical then it is ok for the owner to make them aware of this safety issue. Based on the above, my conclusion is that this was not the case.

I'm glad your DD2 got out safe from the water ride. I must have been a real stress to see that happening. I guess life jackets is a big plus for baby safety!

MamaMellis, I'd guess that depending on the situation many women like you would not choose to breastfeed in the pool. Apparently on this situation this mother thought that was the best thing to do in that moment. It seems that water was warmer, the conversation may have been interesting, there were not many kids jumping beside her. The point here is that she exercised her choice, and she did not like to be told to leave just because a patron complained she was breastfeeding.

Back to the Minister of Health, this may be a valid "excuse" is they don't give their opinion about breastmilk and pools. This is the point that concerns me.

All the best!
CT.

[khaoskat]

Originally Posted by CndThinker

Your point is valid, though. Any person sitting at small stairs may cause safety hazards, if this is critical then it is ok for the owner to make them aware of this safety issue.

CT.

I have been a lifeguard before. I have held 5 different certifications by three different certifying programs at one time (YMCA, because I worked at the Y, lifeguard training; Red Cross lifeguard - because that is what the pool I worked for when I lived with my parents used and then I also subbed at the pool in college and it was required; I also held ELIS at the wavepool level, because I also worked at Oceans of Fun in addition to the Y; Additionally, I held Red Cross Water Safety Instructor and Lifeguard Instructor Certifications and while in college helped the swimming instructor/lifeguard instructor teach the classes.)

But the pools I have worked at, except Oceans of Fun, didn't have stairs, just ladders. The one set of stairs at Oceans was not that large and only to be used for getting in/out of the water. Which is where my concern for safety comes from. Regardless what you were doing, you were not allowed to dally on the stairs. We wouldn't even let parents stand their waiting for theirs kids to go down the slides or over the lily pads, etc...I was standing at the top of those stairs as the guard, and you would be blocking my view and ability to get to a child in danger if needed.

Except for the fact, other than our little Easy Set Pool, the main pool we go to is King's Island, I would considering sitting in one of those huge kids pools that you can walk down into that starts with a zero depth. But, at KI, it is just to busy with too many people running about and kids splashing (including my own).

[St. Margaret]

Originally Posted by CndThinker

khaoskat, it is amazing how there are many different topics around this issue.

The owner of this specific pool mentioned pool fouling, food or drink rules, possibility of the baby spitting, body fluids, but never a safety issue. I guess this may be because this mother was sitting with two other people on the stairs, and only she was the one told to leave the pool. She just did not stop socializing when she decided to breastfeed her baby!

Your point is valid, though. Any person sitting at small stairs may cause safety hazards, if this is critical then it is ok for the owner to make them aware of this safety issue. Based on the above, my conclusion is that this was not the case.

I'm glad your DD2 got out safe from the water ride. I must have been a real stress to see that happening. I guess life jackets is a big plus for baby safety!

MamaMellis, I'd guess that depending on the situation many women like you would not choose to breastfeed in the pool. Apparently on this situation this mother thought that was the best thing to do in that moment. It seems that water was warmer, the conversation may have been interesting, there were not many kids jumping beside her. The point here is that she exercised her choice, and she did not like to be told to leave just because a patron complained she was breastfeeding.

Back to the Minister of Health, this may be a valid "excuse" is they don't give their opinion about breastmilk and pools. This is the point that concerns me.

All the best!
CT.

Exactly. The pool in my old hometown (we live by the beach now) has tons of stairs all around, and people sit all over them. It has a beach-style entrance, too, so you can get in and out easily wherever. People sit on stairs and hold babies in pools, which is sometimes okay and sometimes not, but clearly the issue here (the owner's issue) was specifically that she was BFing.

[CndThinker]

Originally Posted by khaoskat

Except for the fact, other than our little Easy Set Pool, the main pool we go to is King's Island, I would considering sitting in one of those huge kids pools that you can walk down into that starts with a zero depth. But, at KI, it is just to busy with too many people running about and kids splashing (including my own).

Agreed! sometimes (or maybe most of the times as you described) the stairs could be kept clear. In all cases the enforcement should go everyone there, not only to one breastfeeding. I am sure this mother would not have any issue if the approach was different, in a way that would not single her out.

[khaoskat]

Originally Posted by CndThinker

Agreed! sometimes (or maybe most of the times as you described) the stairs could be kept clear. In all cases the enforcement should go everyone there, not only to one breastfeeding. I am sure this mother would not have any issue if the approach was different, in a way that would not single her out.

The problem I see on here often, is that some women think that just because we are breastfeeding, we should be bowed down to. There are those that wouldn't agree with a policy that was being equally enforced for all pool (as is the case here a pool) patrons of no eating or drinking, or even no one on the stairs for safety reasons. There are those on here that feel that the breastfeeding mother is exempt, because she is nursing and the law protects her right to sit where she is and do it, even if the pool has to make other patrons move.

Another thing I thought of is, that sometimes, even though it may not be "law" about certain safety issues, pools are guided by those who certify their lifeguards. Red Cross and YMCA do not normally do this, but if you are ELLIS certified, the certifying agency ELLIS & Associates, has specific requirements that all pools using their certification follow. If they come and do a spot inspection and those rules are not followed, than can yank your certification and thereby you are no longer allowed to use lifeguards who are certified by them. thus, you no longer have a pool staff and are forced to close.

Again, I know that is not the issue here...but it is something to take into consideration, the fact that there is more than just laws governing the pool, the type of lifeguards they hire in (as in who they are certified through) might have regulations they place on their certified pools/guards.

ELLIS is not normally used at "community" pools, but more at Waterparks and beaches and lakes.

[boobs4milk]

i don't think bf mother's should be 'bowed down to' but doesn't the 'anywhere she has the legal right to be' infer that we should be able to bf where we want/need to? how can we qualify that? we can't say 'well ms. jones you can bf only on the cement around the pool' if ms. jones is not breaking the law by being in the pool.

if this was a safety issue, then all people sitting on the steps should be asked to move and then a sign posted that sitting on the steps is a safety violation. in one pool i visit, the whole front of the pool is a 'steps' area that gradually goes down into the water and it's a space about 30' across. many people sit there to be just at the water's edge.

from what i understand, this particular issue is more about the 'ewww breastmilk is a biohazard because it's a bodily fluid' than about someone possibly impeding traffic flow in the pool area. lots of women go swimming while on their period. that's more ewww to me than a mom bf by the pool.

[CndThinker]

Originally Posted by boobs4milk

i don't think bf mother's should be 'bowed down to' but doesn't the 'anywhere she has the legal right to be' infer that we should be able to bf where we want/need to? how can we qualify that? we can't say 'well ms. jones you can bf only on the cement around the pool' if ms. jones is not breaking the law by being in the pool.

That is an excelled point! What is implicit on anywhere/anytime is "where she is otherwise allowed to be". No, a mom cannot breastfeed while crossing a red light because she cannot cross a red light. It is a simple concept, but still has to be explained.

So why do we need the campaign anywhere/anytime? I think that it is because still a lot of people don't see breastfeeding as natural, something that doesn't even have to be noticed. (did you see that lady breastfeeding without covers? no, if she did I did not even notice...).

As we are far from being there, women need to be encouraged to breastfeed. For the benefit of their children, for the benefit of our children.

Results of cases like these need to be public, so other women know that breastfeeding and pool (or on any other place's) rules have nothing to do with each other.

It is also mentioned the "no eating or drinking" rule, which may wrongly suggest that breastfeeding is an exception. It is not. Breastfeeding mothers are still subject to the "no eating" like any other patrons. The "no food or dring" did not have breastfeeding as an intent, because it was not even noticed. The interpretation of breastmilk as food is semantics. If we want to play with that, then we can say that pregnant mothers may be feeding their babies inside the womb in the pool. We can also say that lactating mothers bring two big "containers" with "food" (or would it be drink?) to the pool...

Finally, I have learned here a little more about the procedures and certifications in pools. If any of the above singles out a mother who breastfeeds, then the policy, the certification procedure, or even the threat to remove a certification is discriminatory, and therefore may be challenged against the Human Rights Tribunal. It would be interesting to know if ELLIS has any requirements that "applies" only to breastfeeding.

[khaoskat]

I have never dealt with the management aspect of ELLIS, so I cannot speak to that issue.

But I can say, in general at the pools I have worked at, we have clearly stated at the main entrance what the pool rules are. We have had signs posted in the pool area as well. We applied the rules to everyone.

One thing to remember is that not all pools are the same. Both pools I worked in High School (same city) were different. Both were red cross lifeguards. Pool A was a traditional Olympic size pool like you see in swimming competitions. We had 2 ladders (one on either side of the pool) at the shallow end; We had 2 ladders (one on either side of the pool) about 1/2 way down the pool at the 4ft section. We had a rope that roped off the deep end. We had two low dives and one high dive at the far end of the deep end, with two ladders (one on each side of the pool).

Pool B was an L-Shaped pool. It was the traditional length of an Olympic Pool, but was about 1/2 as wide. We had no steps, just ladders. I think we had 5 ladders placed throughout the shallow side of the pool (which was the whole l of the L). The lower part of the L, the - section was the deep end. We had two ladders there I believe, and I think just two low dive boards.

Oceans of Fun (they are ELLIS trained) - I worked mainly in the large kids pool, but because of my certification of Wave Pool, I would sometimes be pulled to other areas as needed because I was certified for all pools/slides in the park. It started zero walk in depth. It had one set of stairs, which were placed by the two kids slides and the lily pad walk. We were not allowed to have anyone on those steps except those getting out. We had a lifeguard who walk back and forth at the top of the stairs (sometimes if it was hot, we would walk on the top step). If there was anyone sitting on those steps it would totally block our ability to run down them and get to a patron in need of assistance. I think the width of this set of stairs was about 5 feet.

I don't see an issue with a rule that is applied equally to all patrons. If this rule was applied only to a breastfeeding mother, to me that is wrong. Which this appears to be what happened in this case. If the rule is applied equally to every patron, I don't see an issue with mom being asked to move if she is nursing but breaking a rule everyone else has to follow and the rule is being applied to all.

[ramama]

This topic has already been debated in depth...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=997913
...but I am glad that the pool owner is kinda taking a tad bit of responsibility, and will now be "allowing" (as if it's up to her to allow it or not) breastfeeding at her pool.

[annekh23]

If something is a genuine safety issue, then the lifeguards should say so and breastfeeding mums aren't immune from breaking rules, intentionally or unintentionally!

I've breastfed 2 of my 3 kids in pools, not because I planned to or wanted to, but because it seemed the logical thing at the time. One was in a half hour baby swim class, exclusive use of the pool, he fussed, I thought a few mins at the breast would enable us to continue with the class, so I went to the shallow end and did so and it worked!

I'm not sure a nurse in was an appropriate response in this instance, unless it was the normal behaviour at that pool to sit around chatting, one person on the stairs might be ok, when a group all sat in a line might not be, whether they were nursing or not.

[CndThinker]

I think we are in agreement here. Rules applied to all, including breasfeeding mothers. The details behind breastfeeding and pools has been discussed before as noted.

That is why I wanted to focus on the Ministry of Health response (if any), and if there is any similar Ministries in US and Canada that have already stated anything on this matter.

[khaoskat]

Originally Posted by CndThinker

That is why I wanted to focus on the Ministry of Health response (if any), and if there is any similar Ministries in US and Canada that have already stated anything on this matter.

In the US, I think our version would be the Department of Health. Both at the Federal Level and the State Level. But there have been, to my knowledge, on the issue.

[CndThinker]

Originally Posted by khaoskat

In the US, I think our version would be the Department of Health. Both at the Federal Level and the State Level. But there have been, to my knowledge, on the issue.

Could anyone ask? I mean, it has happened and it will continue to happen, since breastfeeding in public is unfortunately still an issue. I have heard that several US states are still not "breastfeeding friendly". See what happened in Ann Arbor, MI.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/6005947/detail.html

The simple question to ask is: "Does the no food or drink rule applies to breastfeeding in pools? can I get a written statement?"

You'd probably be surprised with the response.

[khaoskat]

I think to get an answer you would have to contact every single state's version of the Department of Health, as well as the Federal.

Yes, there are still many States that do not protect breastfeeding. some that have laws but no enforcement provisions. some have basically it is not public indecency to nurse your baby in public.