Medela further violating WHO code - Page 5

[jeanine123]

Originally Posted by savithny

YOu're the one who took it down the bottle rabbit hole with your ideological insistence that bottles are evil.

Where exactly did I do that? Please point me in the direction of the post where I made those statements as I'd like to go back and review them since I have no memory of every posting anything along those lines. I did post some quotes from other articles/blogs but I don't recall saying anything such as that personally. I have simply been commenting on the fact that many (though not around here apparently) consider Medela's marketing of bottles to be in violation of the WHO Code, as evidenced by the quotes that I chose and that I personally consider their Medela Mom Mavens to also be in violation of the WHO Code. I have said absolutely nothing derogatory about the bottles themselves nor their uses. Unless you consider pointing out the fact that there are other ways to feed baby besides a bottle to somehow be at the same level as saying bottles are evil. In which case we will most definitely have to agree to disagree since I absolutely have never believed nor spouted such rubbish and I was merely correcting erroneous information since the quote I was originally responding to left me (and I thus assumed others) with the impression that bottles were the only way to feed a baby when mom wasn't there.

Why does Medela need to market their bottles separately when their pumps already come with bottles to be used for storage/feeding?

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by abimommy

Why do bottles HAVE to be the focus of an advertisement? Medela is clearly pushing the code but why? Why is that necessary? Many here would recommend a Medela pump without any incentives. Why do they have to make it an issue by marketing the bottles around and sending them out as "gifts" (a WHO Code violation)

I for one would like to see Medela put out some cups, which would be less likely to interfere with latch. Avent sells cups, why doesn't Medela?

I do wonder why they feel the need to push it like this. I mean, obviously they're a company that's crazy pro-breastfeeding. So what is the motivation in them deciding to push the Code now?

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by jeanine123

Why does Medela need to market their bottles separately when their pumps already come with bottles to be used for storage/feeding?

Originally Posted by annettemarie

I do wonder why they feel the need to push it like this. I mean, obviously they're a company that's crazy pro-breastfeeding. So what is the motivation in them deciding to push the Code now?

I think part of the issue is that how many bottles does a breastfeeding mom go through if she is nursing from the breast?

I think I have one?? I have a lot of collection bottles I got from the hospital but I only have one actual bottle. I also did not purchase a pump, I rented one from the hospital.

Are we just not making them enough money?

I think most of us realize that if an infant decides they really like the bottle they won't nurse from the breast. They would make a lot more money off a mom who is giving breastmilk in a bottle than one who is nursing from the breast.

[Wildwomyn]

I looked at the link in the original post, and the entire 'outrage' is the fact that the talking points for Mavens include the fact that all plastic parts which touch milk (including shields, etc,) are BPA-free. Oh, and that they are a company which exists to sell products. Because somehow building an entire company and product range aimed at women who are commited to breastfeeding is part of the slippery slope to formula feeding.

[GoBecGo]

Are we just not making them enough money?

Possibly not, there is a recession on after all. Is it tolerable for Medela to push the code in order to survive the recession, or should they take the ultimate fall while staying true(est?) to the code/ideal? I'd rather live in a world WITH medela than without it.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

Possibly not, there is a recession on after all. Is it tolerable for Medela to push the code in order to survive the recession, or should they take the ultimate fall while staying true(est?) to the code/ideal? I'd rather live in a world WITH medela than without it.

Well, if nothing else they've definitely made us all think!

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

Possibly not, there is a recession on after all. Is it tolerable for Medela to push the code in order to survive the recession, or should they take the ultimate fall while staying true(est?) to the code/ideal? I'd rather live in a world WITH medela than without it.

Medela has a lot of sales through hospitals. I have an SNS, several collection bottles and pump parts that my insurance paid for. Those pumps at the hospital, wow they are nice! But who has $800 for a hospital grade pumps? Who has $300 for a pump? Their cheapest electric pump is about $65 but how long does that thing last? Not very long IME.

Their handpump, many would recommend the Avent Isis handpump. Maybe they should work on a better handpump to help nursing moms get through the recession rather than making the Code the issue.

[annettemarie]

So, back to this Maven thing, what if they were promoting breastpumps or SNSs, things like that. Would it still be an issue?

[felix23]

Originally Posted by abimommy

I think most of us realize that bottles are pretty necessary to many families in order to give their baby the best possible nutrition. The point isn't that they are selling bottles, they aren't going to stop doing that, the problem is that they are advertising bottles.

I had a baby in the NICU and then had weight issues so I pumped for some time. I have medela bottles and NONE of them say "breastmilk" on them, not even the small 2 oz bottles.

The point isn't the bottles but the marketing.




I have used a few different kinds of Medela pumps and they are nice pumps but I have a problem with how they are marketing this.

Marketing pumps wouldn't be a violation but marketing bottles, is. So why don't they just market the pumps?

Why do bottles HAVE to be the focus of an advertisement? Medela is clearly pushing the code but why? Why is that necessary? Many here would recommend a Medela pump without any incentives. Why do they have to make it an issue by marketing the bottles around and sending them out as "gifts" (a WHO Code violation)

I for one would like to see Medela put out some cups, which would be less likely to interfere with latch. Avent sells cups, why doesn't Medela?

Because pumping women are most likely going to need bottles and Medela want them to buy their bottles. Just like all businesses (even Mothering) they want to do good, but the bottom line is making money.

I used a Medela pump for several years and I never even knew they made bottles with nipples. I went and bought other bottles, but if I had known Medela made them, I would have bought those bottles because it would have been so much easier to pump, store, feed in one bottle.

I have a huge problem with Medela being punished for marketing bottles to go along with their pumps. I think the WHO needs to realize that bottles are necessary and it isn't a crime to advertise that a company sells them to go along with a pump.

[GoBecGo]

Indeed!

I think i'm just a consumer. If Avent made a better pump i'd buy it instead. I don't actually care about the bottles that much, and since i had to use formula, while it was far from ideal i'd be lying if i said it did my DD visible harm. I am dedicated to getting as far as possible with BFing this little gestating wriggler, and no advert for breastfeeding or formula will change my viewpoint on that.

I guess it MIGHT be important for "on the fence" women approaching infant feeding, but to be honest i know a LOT of women who went to FF after beginning BFing or went straight to FF, and none of this would even register with them. Most of them lacked proper educated support to learn and teach BFing in the immediate post-birth period. It wasn't that bottles or formula seemed easier, it's that they WERE easier. I don't think advertising formula is good, but equally i think that much could be done to support women BFing which is far more useful than just not mentioning formula. It is illegal to advertise infant (newborn-6month) formula in the UK and we still have masses of women using it. Most begin at birth BFing but many soon switch because there isn't enough help and support and knowledge about BFing available. There are no women with fat healthy expert nursers, fabulous supplies and happy BFing relationships reaching for formula because they saw an ad for a bottle.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

So, back to this Maven thing, what if they were promoting breastpumps or SNSs, things like that. Would it still be an issue?

Well it wouldn't be a WHO Code violation but it would still not be allowed here.

It would be against the TOS for many of the larger parenting boards.

[Wildwomyn]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

So, back to this Maven thing, what if they were promoting breastpumps or SNSs, things like that. Would it still be an issue?

Aren't they? As far as I could tell - and I saw a request for Mavens on the pumpmoms group also - what they want is women to promote the entire product range. The talking points, according to the blog post linked in the op, include the fact that "bottles, breastshields and kit components" are bpa-free, and that appears to be the entire evidence for the idea that it's about promoting bottles.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by felix23

Because pumping women are most likely going to need bottles and Medela want them to buy their bottles. Just like all businesses (even Mothering) they want to do good, but the bottom line is making money.

I used a Medela pump for several years and I never even knew they made bottles with nipples. I went and bought other bottles, but if I had known Medela made them, I would have bought those bottles because it would have been so much easier to pump, store, feed in one bottle.

Medela bottles are available at a wide range of retail stores.

If they showed the bottle *attached* to a pump it would be Code Compliant.

I have a huge problem with Medela being punished for marketing bottles to go along with their pumps. I think the WHO needs to realize that bottles are necessary and it isn't a crime to advertise that a company sells them to go along with a pump.

No it isn't a crime but it is a WHO Code violation and Medela is aware of that.
http://www.ilca.org/files/in_the_new...HallMedela.pdf

[jeanine123]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

So, back to this Maven thing, what if they were promoting breastpumps or SNSs, things like that. Would it still be an issue?

If they were up front about who they worked for right off the bat I may not have as much of a problem with the idea. But this whole concept as I understand it currently has just enough of a slimy feel to it that I don't care for it at all. Moms who have found and used products that they like are going to recommend them to their friends/associates/family anyway. I think the part that I have the biggest problem with is the lists of various forums and real life groups that they have on their websites for these moms to target. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I don't have as much of an issue with the products themselves, just the way they're going about this. As I said previously, when the whole Medela bottle advertising thing hit the fan a year or so ago I was pretty "meh" about it, still am to a point. But this on top of that, along with their flat out admission that they know they are violating the WHO Code in some minds has me concerned that a once very pro-BFing company may be veering away from that.


I've thought about this a bit more and I wouldn't have an issue with it as far as WHO Code compliance, since it would certainly fall within it's boundaries. What I would and do have a problem with is the fact that this appears, to me at least, to be a rather shady way of trying to find a way around many of the popular/large messageboard's stance on advertising and spam. I understand that companies need to make money and they need to advertise in order to do so, what I do not like is when they start to engage in shady practices as a way to usurp rules/laws/etc of the community or group they're trying to target.

[jeanine123]

Originally Posted by felix23

Because pumping women are most likely going to need bottles and Medela want them to buy their bottles. Just like all businesses (even Mothering) they want to do good, but the bottom line is making money.

But why? My Medela pump that I bought 6 years ago came with bottles with nipples along with the flat cap for storage. And when I needed more I went to the place where I bought the pump and got more of the bottles. If they want to make sure people stick with their bottles and they're not including nipples along with the bottles they already include with the pump then why not simply include those nipples to reinforce the idea that Medela bottles are available instead of heading down the road of marketing them as separate entities? That would still be within WHO Code standards.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by MonkeysRUs

The problem is not that Medela is making or selling bottles. The problem (according to the WHO Code) is the marketing of the bottles. Medela can make and sell bottles and nipples all they want, and still be code compliant, as long as the bottles and nipples are not marketed to moms. Their marketing became an issue when they starting printing pictures of their bottles on the boxes that contain their pumps. They can include the bottles in the package with the pump, as long as there are no pictures on the outside of the box.
As for the "Medela Mom Mavens", they are violating the code by marketing directly to moms since the "Mavens" will get "a first look at new Medela products". If Medela products are so good, they shouldn't need to be recruiting moms to sell their products for them. Moms talk about good products all the time, and obviously there is nothing wrong with that, just as there is nothing wrong with pumping and providing EBM by bottle. The problem is Medela marketing products that fall under the scope of the code.

I didn't realize they had updated. The above bolded part is why I thought they weren't supposed to put pictures of bottles on the boxes. I still think that is is lame that marketing bottles to go along with pumps is banned because the underlying message is still that pumping and bottle feeding is something to be ashamed of. You can pump, but God forbid you get free bottles or bottles on sale because the store is having a special on them.

Originally Posted by waawa

The Code was last revised and update in 2008.

http://www.ibfan.org/issue-internati...full-6120.html

It is not "inclusive of women who have to use bottles" because it has nothing to say about women using bottles. It is about companies and their advertising.



Bottles are not required to be hidden under a counter; they can be shelved like any other product, so long as they are not in special in-store promotions. Nor are boxes required to be in plain brown wrapping. Straight contents photos (or clear panels) on boxes containing bottles are permitted under the Code. Some countries' interpretations place fairly reasonable limitations on the size of the image. Evenflo has just recently gone Code compliant (I have no connection to the company in any way and do not endorse them): this is what their packs look like:

http://www.evenflo.com/bottle_feeding_landing.aspx

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by felix23

I didn't realize they had updated. The above bolded part is why I thought they weren't supposed to put pictures of bottles on the boxes. I still think that is is lame that marketing bottles to go along with pumps is banned because the underlying message is still that pumping and bottle feeding is something to be ashamed of. You can pump, but God forbid you get free bottles or bottles on sale because the store is having a special on them.

No one is saying that it is something to be ashamed of. Pumping is darn hard and most people know that. It is something to be proud of, it is hard work and can be physically and emotionally exhausting.

If they even showed a bottle attached to a pump then it would be Code Compliant, they don't want to.

They even gave away free bottles, a clear WHO Code violation.

If Medela wants to be a part of the feeding market then why don't they sell cups?

[jeanine123]

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn

The talking points, according to the blog post linked in the op, include the fact that "bottles, breastshields and kit components" are bpa-free, and that appears to be the entire evidence for the idea that it's about promoting bottles.

Where has it been stated here that the Mavens are only or partially for promoting bottles? The bottles thing entered the discussion because there was already an outcry from some groups/individuals about the fact that Medela had begun to market their bottles separately from the pumps and included bottle images on their pumps packaging. Yes, the Mavens are for promoting Medela's entire line, which include bottles and the promotion of bottles to new and expectant parents is the part not permitted under the WHO Code.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by abimommy

Medela bottles are available at a wide range of retail stores.

If they showed the bottle *attached* to a pump it would be Code Compliant.



No it isn't a crime but it is a WHO Code violation and Medela is aware of that.
http://www.ilca.org/files/in_the_new...HallMedela.pdf

I don't get out much. And apparently they didn't sell them at FoodLion four years ago. But the pump that someone bought me had bottles included, but no nipples. And I always thought that was crazy, but due to extreme sleep deprivation, it never occured to me to look online and see if they actually sold nipple to go along with their bottle.

I know it isn't an actually crime, but some people are acting like it is.

[Wildwomyn]

Originally Posted by jeanine123

Where has it been stated here that the Mavens are only or partially for promoting bottles?

How about in the post I quoted which asked if it would be different if they were promoting something other than bottles?