Punching - 4.5.

[Storm Bride]

DS2 is 4.5. We've been having some trouble with hitting for a couple of years, and nothing seems to get through. Now, it's worse. He's started punching dd1 when he gets mad at her. He punched her in the eye yesterday and again today. I really don't know how to handle this. He'll apologize later, apparently completely sincerely. But, he keeps doing it! She actually has a bruise under her eye from where he decked her this morning.

Does anyone have experience with this? I'm at the end of my rope, and it's getting harder and harder to handle this without completely flipping out (and I've done more yelling at this little guy than I ever intended as it is - dealing with him is insanely frustrating...although somewhat less so, now that I'm not pregnant and exhausted, or post-op). Screaming in his face certainly isn't going to help...

[jeliphish]

That's a hard situation.... (for me at least) the "mama bear" instinct can come right out in full force even on your own child when they are hurting another one of your children. It's very difficult to remain calm, and I would say even though you have been yelling more than you have intended, I would think that you are doing a good job not to have that initial "chuck them across the room" reaction.

What has not worked so far? What, if anything, has helped in the past? Natural consequences would be for his sister to deck him back perhaps, (I forget how old she is) but that may not be the best scenario, or optimal at all haha. Does taking things away work? ...I had a friend with a 5 year old who hit his little brother on a consistent basis. They went sorta extreme, but it worked. They basically took everything out of his room except for a mattress and sheets. When he went for 2 days without hitting he would get a toy/belonging back. It was a great solution (and lasting) for them, but I don't know if it wold work in every household.

Before he gets to that point is he tired/hungry/full of too much energy?

[Storm Bride]

We've only tried taking things away if he actually hits with them. If he hits with a toy, it's taken away for either the rest of the day (if it's early) or for the next whole day. If he gets it back, and promptly hits with it again (has happened), it disappears for a while (usually about 3-4 days, somtimes a little more). Taking away all his toys wouldn't work, because he shares a room with dd1, and then he'd just start taking her toys...prompting more fights. Taking her toys away obviously isn't reasonable.

We've tried "time ins", where he comes and sits with me or dh and cools down, and then we have a talk about it. We've also done time outs - never framed punitively, and, in the past, we've given him the choice of "in or out" - for the same purpose of removing him from the situation and getting him calmed down. This will chill things out, but doesn't do anything about him doing it again.

He's sometimes tired, in which case, I'll put him down for a nap - or try to. That can sometimes be an hour to two hour process and he still doesn't stay down. Sometimes, he's hungry, but I can usually catch that before it gets to the hitting point, and offer him something to eat. He always has lots of energy, but I haven't noticed any real correlation between lack of gross motor play and the hitting (some of his behavioural issues are very much related, but this one doesn't seem to be). He just doesn't seem to have much impulse control...or something.

Once he's calmed down, we've talked to him about it, but he responds strangely. I've done the "how would you like it if someone punched you in the face?" thing...and he says, "that would be great"...sometimes with, "because I'm just a stupid guy" added on. It breaks my heart.

Honestly, it's like dealing with a 2 year old...only he weighs almost 50 pounds.

Sorry - not trying to be defeatist. My frustration level has just become really high.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by jeliphish

That's a hard situation.... (for me at least) the "mama bear" instinct can come right out in full force even on your own child when they are hurting another one of your children.

Oh - and this is so true. I can remember actually smacking dd1, when she was about 25-26 months old, because she came up and pulled ds2's hair while he was nursing. I pulled it, but not soon enough - just lashed out without even thinking about who was standing there. I was horrified - not just that I'd hurt her, but at how I din't even think about it.

[jeliphish]

I did a little reading in some resources I had a work and found some things that may help:
(first, does he have ADHD? if so, there are some different ways to try to remedy the situation)
However in general:
1. Discipline should be immediate, short, and swift. Delayed consequences, such as detention, don't work for those with difficulty anticipating future outcomes. Consequences must be instantaneous.
2.Be proactive in your approach to discipline. Respond to positive and negative behaviors equally. Recognize and remark on the behavior, then respond to positive actions with praise, attention, and rewards or immediately
3.Telling your child to "be good" is too vague. Instead, be explicit: "When we go into the store, do not touch, just look with your eyes." "At the playground, wait in line for the slide, and don't push
4. (and this seems like a fun one) using board games and making it a nightly family routine- or just a time for you and him. Board games assist greatly in working on impulse control and can sorta pave the way to making up your own games throughout the day that will encourage better impulse control. I remember something about "the marshmallow game" that some researcher found useful in incorporating better childhood impulse control.

[Storm Bride]

Thanks. I don't think ds2 is ADHD, although I'm considering having some kind of assessment done, as his behaviour is...odd. Honestly, as strange as it sounds, I think his sense of humour is our single biggest problem, but I might be oversimplifying.

1. This is the one area I think we do really well. I've never been big on delayed consequences, anyway, and that doesn't work with ds2 at all.
2. We (dh and I) have been really focusing on this for the last few months. I don't think we're quite equal yet (too much built up frustration with the negative behaviours), but we've both improved a lot. We're continuing to work on this, especially just making sure we let him know when we notice how well behaved he is, how nice he's being, etc.
3. I'm good at this most of the time, but not always. I'll work on it more.
4. This is a good idea. We've had bad luck with games in the past, but it's been a while since we tried to play any. I'll give this a shot.


Honestly, ds2's overall behaviour is so much better than it was even six months ago that I feel bad even complaining about him - but the hurting people, and especially the punching, is just out of hand, and it's so hard to cope with.

[Equuskia]

Please don't take this suggestion as being flippant or anything, I swear I am being very serious. Is it possible to sign him up for some boxing lessons or other combative sport? Something where he can take out his agression in a controlled, discipled environment?

[Storm Bride]

I don't think I can fit that into the schedule right now, but it's not a bad idea. I'll revisit it in March, when some other stuff has settled down.

That reminds me to check on whether there's an opening in the "Stomp N Boyz" dance class. He took it last year, and didn't participate until the very last class, very last dance...but he wants to do it again. It's a neat class.

[Marsupialmom]

I am going to encourage you to keep them closer.

His hitting might be that both children fail to communicate well. Seeing what leads up to the hitting helps a lot.

When my son was little he hit because the other child was not sharing, not being guided how to, and my little guy was completely frustrated. Not right of him but it really was a matter of working with both children.

It is easy to expect more out of the older child but there can be a give and take. It is also easy for some people to get caught up in roles and sterotypes. Make sure your are not setting your oldest child up as a role of an aggresser and the younger as the victim.

This happen to me when my children were older. I got a call from my younger child that her brother bloody her noise. I asked her what happen she was too upset to talk. I asked my son. He said he was laying on the couch and she sat on his face. He pushed her off and he then blocked her from sitting on his face again. Some how she move and his hand ended up hitting/kicking her face. Dealing with the situation meant dealing with both children. If you want to lay down go to your bed -- to my son. To my daughter use your words to ask a person to move, he was there first you are out of luck, and what did you expect to happen when you sit on a persons face? They are going to likely react violently as a survial instinct. I learned long before to ask many question.

One the other hand I have a friend with 5 kids, the oldst 4 boys then the baby was a girl. The girl got "princesed" at age 4 the girl was in the victim roles and the boys as aggressors -- part was sterotypes the family carried. She because an instigator until the one night she forgot one of her brothers were not home. She came out crying and saying Oldest son hit her. When confronted she gets caught in her lies. They started watching her closer realzing they had created roles for their children and their youngest was on the way to be a monster. A lot of bad behaviors of all children decreased when they stopped putting them in roles.

[Storm Bride]

We're having a lot of discussion and "sample conversations" (kind of like role playing) about how to handle these situations. I know that both kids involved have trouble expressing things to the other. If ds2 is bugging dd1 (or vice versa), she doesn't realize that he's not picking up that she's not playing. So, she'll make strange noises and thrash around, but not actually say "please stop that - I don't like it". Then, she ends up shoving him or something and he'll punch her. Sometimes, he just punches her because she doesn't want to play with him or something.

To clarify, though - ds2 is the younger one. It's his older sister he's punched in the face twice this week. He's also too rough with dd2, but that's usually just a matter of not being gentle enough when showing affection.

Quite often, I see something brewing, but I'll be nursing and trying to get their attention, and then *WHAM*. The incidents flare up really quickly. We're working a lot with both of them, but progress is very slow.

DS2 just really lives in the now. It's incredibly sweet and charming sometimes...and unbelievably frustrating at others. It's strange, too - he was the easiest, most laidback baby.

The "roles" have never been much of an issue around here, until ds2. DH, ds1 and I are all fighting not to slot him into a "troublemaker" pigeonhole, and it's honestly very difficult. He's harder to deal with than the other three combined, and takes up a seriously disproportionate amount of our attention...which doesn't even factor in how often he hurts us, physically.

I just keep reminding myself over and over again that he has made tremendous progress. At least now he can sit and entertain himself with some blocks, or cars, or Play Doh for more than 30 seconds.