three year old abuses pets

[pajamajes]

hello everyone. i haven't posted here much before, but today i did something terrible and i really need your help. i don't know a lot about gentle discipline, but i would consider myself an advocate of it. but i'm still learning and i'm sure i do quite a few things that aren't gd. however, i have never ever hit a child...until today. in my defense, i popped her once on the butt and no harder than a pat. but i do still feel absolutely terrible. flame me, i deserve it. i did it without even thinking, like reflex, and that scares me. i don't ever ever ever want to do that again and that's why i'm here.

here's what happened: the three year old i care for abuses the family pets. they have a large dog, a small dog, and a cat. the large dog is too mellow to pay her any attention, although she does hit him occasionally. the cat avoids her at all costs...wonder why? but the poor little pup loves her to death and they play together often. here's the thing, one minute she's petting her and the next minute she's hitting her over the head. i feel so bad for the animals and i have no idea why she does this. ever since i first started keeping her she's hit them, kicked them, stepped on them, or sat on them at least 20 times a day. and every single time i see her do this i say: "ouch! don't hit puppy! that's hurts him!" or "don't pull kitty's tail! she doesn't like that, it hurts her!" and she stops for the moment. 10 minutes later she's doing it again. all day long, every day. i sound like a broken record and it seems like she doesn't even hear me.

today, i walked in on her beating the poor little dog with a plastic wand toy. she was hitting it repeatedly and so hard it was squealing in pain. i ran up to her, popped her butt, and said "no! don't hurt puppy!". i realized what i had just done and immediately regretted it. but she wasn't the least bit upset. she just walked away and continued playing. i don't understand why she keeps doing this. i keep thinking about what they say about kids who torture animals growing up to be serial killers.

how can i get her to stop abusing the pets? today was the last straw for me on this issue, clearly, and i really need some advice. thanks.

(before it gets brought up: i am her nanny. i'm not her mother. yes, i told the mother about this incident and no, she wasn't upset about what i did. they spank her and told me i should spank her as well. i told them i won't spank or do time-outs and they were fine with that, but made it very clear that they do and plan on continuing. nothing i can do about that. and it seems as if i ate my non-spanking words today. i am such a jackass.)

[Mama Mko]

I would separate her from the dog unless you can be right there supervising. Baby gate her off from the dog area if you have to leave the room. Be right beside her if she's right by the dog.

Instead of saying "Don't do this." Say "Do this." Example: "Be GENTLE with the dog! See, gentle." Also, redirecting the hitting has worked for me. "We don't hit dogs/people/TVs. We can hit pillows though!" Demonstrate. Good luck!

[womenswisdom]

I don't spank either, but I can see how you would have that "impulse" reaction. Seeing an animal being hurt like that is hard I would not worry so much about her becoming a serial killer, I'm pretty sure it's older children who are deliberately causing pain in a methodical way that are the concern. This child is only 3 years old and still learning what is acceptable and what is not and all 3 year olds have trouble controlling their impulses and some are very physical.

I agree with the pp who said the best thing to do is to show her what *to* do, not focus overly on what *not to* do. So model the appropriate behavior and (though I'm not a big advocate of praise), be sure to notice how much the animals like it when she is gentle - "Look, puppy loves it when you pet him nicely on the head" or whatever. Have you read How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk? It has a good "script" for how to talk to kids of various ages and might be useful to you.

[simplycrunchy]

We're having big issues with dd (2 1/2) hitting our animals, pulling tails, ect. One thing that is helping a little is spending a lot of time doing positive things with them- like playing catch, giving them treats, helping brush/bathe them. When we include her in the "taking care of" aspect of having the pets, it's like she views them more as hers and is more willing to be kind to them.

[griffin2004]

What efforts are the parents making to get this behavior under control? It sounds like nothing. If you and the parents aren't on the same page, I don't think there is much hope of stopping the abuse. All you can really do is keep the child separated from the animals while you're there.

All animal abuse is disturbing, but this behavior seems to go beyond what people describe for kids that age. Does the child have other extreme behaviors?

I'm not criticizing you at all, but I would find it very difficult to work in a home where the parents only response to animal abuse is to spank the child.

[heartmama]

It is not unusual for a child as young as three to be oblivious to the idea that they can do permanent harm. Pets are very 'amusing' in the sense that they are soft and make funny noises. A toddler can't understand that they could hurt a puppy, and a puppy yapping in pain sounds a lot like electronic puppy sounds found on preschool animal toys.

In the case of the OP, if a child is allowed to be rough with animals at age one and two, by age three it is normal in her mind for the pup to squeal and cry. She hits pup, pup squeals, child feels entertained to have caused a reaction, and this 'game' has been allowed to go on for years. It is not the fault of a three year old that such a situation has become so out of control.

This is why, and I must sound like a broken record, it is imperitive that parents with children and pets enforce boundaries from the start. Toddlers should never be left unsupervised with animals. If the animal is large, it could hurt them if they provoke it. If the animal is fragile, the child could harm it without understanding what they did. So there is really no situation where a toddler should just be left alone with animals, because toddlers are by nature unable to comprehend the danger of either scenario.

As far as spanking--even most GD parents have an instance of losing their temper, so there is no reason to think you can't practice GD going forward--but the way you don't spank is to decide that you won't--and don't. It is a ultimately something you just decide is off limits.

As far as resolving this situation: If you were the parent I would keep the child and pets 100% separated for about a week. Use baby gates, close doors, do what you have to do. This will reset the situation. Then, begin to introduce supervised sessions with you, your child, and a pet. You must keep TOTAL control over these sessions. They should be short, and task focused. That means you have a job for the child to do, and when they do it, you separate the child and pet again. The job could be giving the pet a treat, giving the pet a soft stroke on the back, putting food in the pet bowl, or having the child repeat a phrase like "Good doggie" softly to the pet. You do this periodically through the day. What this will do, over time, is instill in the child the habit of proper pet care. Inappropriate behavior, such as hitting, becomes impossible. It never happens again. The child has zero opportunity to fail. They see the pet, they follow short instructions for interaction, and then they are separated again. Praise the child highly for treating the pet nicely. Remember, they had zero chance to do otherwise--this is the heart of setting a child up for success. She is much too young to be expected, on her own, to make the right choice here.

This may take months before you see progress, and it may be another couple of years before she is reliable in her behavior with pets. But remember: that is also true of kids who were never allowed to hurt animals. There are many kids of 4 and 5 years old that get too rough with animals--that is why many pet rescues, for example, won't adopt to families with kids younger than 8. That is because little kids don't naturally know how to treat animals.

Parents of small children have to do the work of instilling proper training in pet care. It is not something that "just happens". This child's parents clearly have not done that work because you said this has gone on for months/years. It is their fault, not hers, that the situation is at this point.

As the nanny you can only do as much of this as the parents allow. I think anything you do will help. However, it is always tough to remedy a situation that another caregiver is willfully ignoring.

[Kirsten]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

one minute she's petting her and the next minute she's hitting her over the head. i feel so bad for the animals and i have no idea why she does this. ever since i first started keeping her she's hit them, kicked them, stepped on them, or sat on them at least 20 times a day. and every single time i see her do this i say: "ouch! don't hit puppy! that's hurts him!" or "don't pull kitty's tail! she doesn't like that, it hurts her!" and she stops for the moment. 10 minutes later she's doing it again. all day long, every day.

today, i walked in on her beating the poor little dog with a plastic wand toy. she was hitting it repeatedly and so hard it was squealing in pain. i ran up to her, popped her butt, and said "no! don't hurt puppy!". i realized what i had just done and immediately regretted it. but she wasn't the least bit upset. she just walked away and continued playing.

how can i get her to stop abusing the pets? today was the last straw for me on this issue, clearly, and i really need some advice.

I don't think you are a jackass at all, and I certainly won't flame you. SOMETHING has to be done, and you are not in a position to rehome these animals so the change must occur with the little girl. She won't change on her own, and you already know that explaining to her and asking her not to do it DOES NOT WORK. So you must try something else.

1. Keep animals separated from 3 y.o. AT ALL TIMES. Different room, outside in fenced or leashed area, whatever the option is - take it.

2. During BRIEF periods of time with the animals (like a previous poster explained) you SHADOW HER LIKE A HAWK. If she raises a hand to hit the dog, you grab her wrist before she can hit him. If that isn't GD enough, then scoop the dog up and out of harm's way before she can get her hands on him (though truthfully, I think this will be a huge challenge). No more hitting, kicking, sitting on the dogs! Not one more time. I'd drop chores, game prep, anything that takes you away from keeping her from hurting the pets.

3. If she hurts the animals, there must be a consequence. No Candyland or park visit or whatever was about to happen. I'd spend some time checking the dog, petting him, giving him a snack, etc. Focus on the hurt one, and explain that you can't play Candyland right now because you have to make sure puppy is ok.

I nannied for five years before having my own kids. I also had the "I won't spank" rule, and it was good to learn that you have other options. However, you MUST do more than model being nice to the pets and telling her to be nice to the pets after she just got done beating the crap out of them.

Are the parents open to the idea of the pets going to a neighbor or friend's house for six to twelve months until the 3 y.o. is better able to treat them well? Honestly, what you describe is NOT ok, and the poor dog deserves better.

[simplycrunchy]

I just have a few things to add.

Just because a child is unkind to animals doesn't mean that the parents have "allowed it" or been slack. Our daughter has always been very gentle with our pets. We started off sitting right with her when she was barely sitting up and helped her learn to pet them gently. We never had any problems until all of a sudden at 2 1/2. We never let her hurt them at all- I really think some kids go through a stage where this is an issue- not that that makes it okay and we don't allow it- we intervene each time- but I think it's wrong to assume that anytime this happens its because the parents haven't done their job.

Kids are very curious. To us, pets are like people. To them, they are completely different. They barely understand the concept of hurting other people, and that's easier to grasp. Pets are kind of like their stuffed animals but different- I think for most kids, they don't really understand that they are hurting the animals. They hit/pull/ect. to see what the animals reaction is. I'm NOT saying it's okay, but I think it's important to remember what is developmentally normal for kids. I would hate for someone to read this thread and think their child has aggression issues because of things that have been said. That said, we don't leave dd alone with the animals and if she isn't kind to them we take her to a different room and won't let her around the animals until she's calm and ready to treat them the way they deserve to be treated. Like everything in parenting, teaching kids to be kind to animals requires balance and patience.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

hello everyone. i haven't posted here much before, but today i did something terrible and i really need your help. i don't know a lot about gentle discipline, but i would consider myself an advocate of it. but i'm still learning and i'm sure i do quite a few things that aren't gd. however, i have never ever hit a child...until today. in my defense, i popped her once on the butt and no harder than a pat. but i do still feel absolutely terrible. flame me, i deserve it. i did it without even thinking, like reflex, and that scares me. i don't ever ever ever want to do that again and that's why i'm here.

here's what happened: the three year old i care for abuses the family pets. they have a large dog, a small dog, and a cat. the large dog is too mellow to pay her any attention, although she does hit him occasionally. the cat avoids her at all costs...wonder why? but the poor little pup loves her to death and they play together often. here's the thing, one minute she's petting her and the next minute she's hitting her over the head. i feel so bad for the animals and i have no idea why she does this. ever since i first started keeping her she's hit them, kicked them, stepped on them, or sat on them at least 20 times a day. and every single time i see her do this i say: "ouch! don't hit puppy! that's hurts him!" or "don't pull kitty's tail! she doesn't like that, it hurts her!" and she stops for the moment. 10 minutes later she's doing it again. all day long, every day. i sound like a broken record and it seems like she doesn't even hear me.

today, i walked in on her beating the poor little dog with a plastic wand toy. she was hitting it repeatedly and so hard it was squealing in pain. i ran up to her, popped her butt, and said "no! don't hurt puppy!". i realized what i had just done and immediately regretted it. but she wasn't the least bit upset. she just walked away and continued playing. i don't understand why she keeps doing this. i keep thinking about what they say about kids who torture animals growing up to be serial killers.

how can i get her to stop abusing the pets? today was the last straw for me on this issue, clearly, and i really need some advice. thanks.

(before it gets brought up: i am her nanny. i'm not her mother. yes, i told the mother about this incident and no, she wasn't upset about what i did. they spank her and told me i should spank her as well. i told them i won't spank or do time-outs and they were fine with that, but made it very clear that they do and plan on continuing. nothing i can do about that. and it seems as if i ate my non-spanking words today. i am such a jackass.)

You've been getting some great advice here. I just wanted to comment that you really shouldn't be too hard on yourself about this, in my opinion. You're not a jackass! You walked in on a situation that had to be stopped immediately and you acted instinctively. The child isn't hurt at all by it. Unfortunately it sounds like she wasn't deterred at all, either. Tough, tough situation. What the others are saying about seperating the child from the pets is really the best/only option. Good luck!

[heartmama]

Just because a child is unkind to animals doesn't mean that the parents have "allowed it" or been slack.

You are right, it is completely developmentally normal for toddlers and preschoolers to behave in a way that can hurt animals. It does not mean anything is wrong with the child, or that parents were slack. Little kids are impulsive, and unable to comprehend their actions could have serious and permanent consequences.

Knowing this, it is totally up to parents to be aware when a small child is going through this phase, and act accordingly. The parent has a responsibility to protect the pet and educate their child. While some kids 'get' this very easily, other children need rigorous supervision and teaching before they comprehend proper behavior with animals.

[elisent]

Can't you keep a closer eye on her? What were you doing all these times that she was hurting the animals? Help her play with them nicely. The first time she harms one of them then take her away from them. Eventually she'll learn.

It's normal for kids that age. They are just starting to develop empathy towards other humans. Hurting her for hurting pets sends a bit of a mixed message in my opinion.

[vivvysue]

lots of good advice here, just a quick curious question, you mentioned that you don't spank, which i totally agree with, but that you also will not do time outs. what do you do for discipline in place of time outs? curious only, not meaning to sound snarky or b****y or anything... i just cant think of what else you might do for punishment or discipline other than time outs at that age. re-direction etc is good, but i guess i feel at some point there has to be some sort of negative consequence to negative behaviour, otherwise how do they ever learn that they are not behaving appropriately. hope i am making sense here, lol just worked a double early shift and my brain is in lala land mode

v

[pajamajes]

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I really appreciate it. :]

Originally Posted by Mama Mko

I would separate her from the dog unless you can be right there supervising. Baby gate her off from the dog area if you have to leave the room. Be right beside her if she's right by the dog.

Instead of saying "Don't do this." Say "Do this." Example: "Be GENTLE with the dog! See, gentle." Also, redirecting the hitting has worked for me. "We don't hit dogs/people/TVs. We can hit pillows though!" Demonstrate. Good luck!

Good ideas, especially about redirecting and giving her something that is appropriate to hit. I didn't think of that.

Originally Posted by womenswisdom

I don't spank either, but I can see how you would have that "impulse" reaction. Seeing an animal being hurt like that is hard

I agree with the pp who said the best thing to do is to show her what *to* do, not focus overly on what *not to* do. So model the appropriate behavior and (though I'm not a big advocate of praise), be sure to notice how much the animals like it when she is gentle - "Look, puppy loves it when you pet him nicely on the head" or whatever. Have you read How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk? It has a good "script" for how to talk to kids of various ages and might be useful to you.

Thanks, I'll try to find that book at the library. I've been trying to find some good GD books to read.

Originally Posted by simplycrunchy

We're having big issues with dd (2 1/2) hitting our animals, pulling tails, ect. One thing that is helping a little is spending a lot of time doing positive things with them- like playing catch, giving them treats, helping brush/bathe them. When we include her in the "taking care of" aspect of having the pets, it's like she views them more as hers and is more willing to be kind to them.

This is a great idea. Will do.

Originally Posted by griffin2004

What efforts are the parents making to get this behavior under control? It sounds like nothing. If you and the parents aren't on the same page, I don't think there is much hope of stopping the abuse. All you can really do is keep the child separated from the animals while you're there.

All animal abuse is disturbing, but this behavior seems to go beyond what people describe for kids that age. Does the child have other extreme behaviors?

I'm not criticizing you at all, but I would find it very difficult to work in a home where the parents only response to animal abuse is to spank the child.

I don't know for sure, and I hate to judge others, but I think the parents probably hit the animals as well. :[ I also think this behavior probably stems from her being hit herself. Violence begets violence most times.

Originally Posted by heartmama

It is not unusual for a child as young as three to be oblivious to the idea that they can do permanent harm. Pets are very 'amusing' in the sense that they are soft and make funny noises. A toddler can't understand that they could hurt a puppy, and a puppy yapping in pain sounds a lot like electronic puppy sounds found on preschool animal toys.

In the case of the OP, if a child is allowed to be rough with animals at age one and two, by age three it is normal in her mind for the pup to squeal and cry. She hits pup, pup squeals, child feels entertained to have caused a reaction, and this 'game' has been allowed to go on for years. It is not the fault of a three year old that such a situation has become so out of control.

This is why, and I must sound like a broken record, it is imperitive that parents with children and pets enforce boundaries from the start. Toddlers should never be left unsupervised with animals. If the animal is large, it could hurt them if they provoke it. If the animal is fragile, the child could harm it without understanding what they did. So there is really no situation where a toddler should just be left alone with animals, because toddlers are by nature unable to comprehend the danger of either scenario.

As far as spanking--even most GD parents have an instance of losing their temper, so there is no reason to think you can't practice GD going forward--but the way you don't spank is to decide that you won't--and don't. It is a ultimately something you just decide is off limits.

As far as resolving this situation: If you were the parent I would keep the child and pets 100% separated for about a week. Use baby gates, close doors, do what you have to do. This will reset the situation. Then, begin to introduce supervised sessions with you, your child, and a pet. You must keep TOTAL control over these sessions. They should be short, and task focused. That means you have a job for the child to do, and when they do it, you separate the child and pet again. The job could be giving the pet a treat, giving the pet a soft stroke on the back, putting food in the pet bowl, or having the child repeat a phrase like "Good doggie" softly to the pet. You do this periodically through the day. What this will do, over time, is instill in the child the habit of proper pet care. Inappropriate behavior, such as hitting, becomes impossible. It never happens again. The child has zero opportunity to fail. They see the pet, they follow short instructions for interaction, and then they are separated again. Praise the child highly for treating the pet nicely. Remember, they had zero chance to do otherwise--this is the heart of setting a child up for success. She is much too young to be expected, on her own, to make the right choice here.

This may take months before you see progress, and it may be another couple of years before she is reliable in her behavior with pets. But remember: that is also true of kids who were never allowed to hurt animals. There are many kids of 4 and 5 years old that get too rough with animals--that is why many pet rescues, for example, won't adopt to families with kids younger than 8. That is because little kids don't naturally know how to treat animals.

Parents of small children have to do the work of instilling proper training in pet care. It is not something that "just happens". This child's parents clearly have not done that work because you said this has gone on for months/years. It is their fault, not hers, that the situation is at this point.

As the nanny you can only do as much of this as the parents allow. I think anything you do will help. However, it is always tough to remedy a situation that another caregiver is willfully ignoring.

This is very true. Your suggestion about separating them except for task focused sessions sounds really great. I'm going to do that while I am there. I just wish there was something I could do about when I am not there.

Originally Posted by Kirsten

I don't think you are a jackass at all, and I certainly won't flame you. SOMETHING has to be done, and you are not in a position to rehome these animals so the change must occur with the little girl. She won't change on her own, and you already know that explaining to her and asking her not to do it DOES NOT WORK. So you must try something else.

1. Keep animals separated from 3 y.o. AT ALL TIMES. Different room, outside in fenced or leashed area, whatever the option is - take it.

2. During BRIEF periods of time with the animals (like a previous poster explained) you SHADOW HER LIKE A HAWK. If she raises a hand to hit the dog, you grab her wrist before she can hit him. If that isn't GD enough, then scoop the dog up and out of harm's way before she can get her hands on him (though truthfully, I think this will be a huge challenge). No more hitting, kicking, sitting on the dogs! Not one more time. I'd drop chores, game prep, anything that takes you away from keeping her from hurting the pets.

3. If she hurts the animals, there must be a consequence. No Candyland or park visit or whatever was about to happen. I'd spend some time checking the dog, petting him, giving him a snack, etc. Focus on the hurt one, and explain that you can't play Candyland right now because you have to make sure puppy is ok.

I nannied for five years before having my own kids. I also had the "I won't spank" rule, and it was good to learn that you have other options. However, you MUST do more than model being nice to the pets and telling her to be nice to the pets after she just got done beating the crap out of them.

Are the parents open to the idea of the pets going to a neighbor or friend's house for six to twelve months until the 3 y.o. is better able to treat them well? Honestly, what you describe is NOT ok, and the poor dog deserves better.

Thank you. I will do all of these things. I don't think they would rehome the pets, even temporarily. They do not see this behavior as problematic. As I'm sure you've experienced when you were a nanny, there's only so much a nanny can do. It's very frustrating.

Originally Posted by coffeegirl

You've been getting some great advice here. I just wanted to comment that you really shouldn't be too hard on yourself about this, in my opinion. You're not a jackass! You walked in on a situation that had to be stopped immediately and you acted instinctively. The child isn't hurt at all by it. Unfortunately it sounds like she wasn't deterred at all, either. Tough, tough situation. What the others are saying about seperating the child from the pets is really the best/only option. Good luck!

It's so sad. This child is so used to being hit and yelled at that it doesn't seem out of the ordinary to her at all. I just don't know what I can do, if anything. If it was a case of child abuse, I could, but technically it would just be considered discipline.

Originally Posted by elisent

Can't you keep a closer eye on her? What were you doing all these times that she was hurting the animals? Help her play with them nicely. The first time she harms one of them then take her away from them. Eventually she'll learn.

It's normal for kids that age. They are just starting to develop empathy towards other humans. Hurting her for hurting pets sends a bit of a mixed message in my opinion.

In this instance, I was in the kitchen (one room away) fixing her lunch. Usually, I am right there when she hits them. She will go straight from petting them or playing with them to hitting them.

Originally Posted by vivvysue

lots of good advice here, just a quick curious question, you mentioned that you don't spank, which i totally agree with, but that you also will not do time outs. what do you do for discipline in place of time outs? curious only, not meaning to sound snarky or b****y or anything... i just cant think of what else you might do for punishment or discipline other than time outs at that age. re-direction etc is good, but i guess i feel at some point there has to be some sort of negative consequence to negative behaviour, otherwise how do they ever learn that they are not behaving appropriately. hope i am making sense here, lol just worked a double early shift and my brain is in lala land mode

v

:] I don't do time outs in the typical way that most people think of when they hear that term. I will ask her to sit down with me on the couch and chill out for a bit, not really as a form of punishment, but rather as a way to help her cool down when she gets overly excited or "out of control" so to speak. You might consider that a time out. I help her learn that she is not behaving appropriately by telling her that she is not behaving appropriately and explaining why, modeling the appropriate way to behave, and redirecting. As far as negative consequences, I rely on natural ones and let them come as they may, as long as she's not going to get hurt. However, I definitely don't know much about GD or even my own beliefs about discipline, as I am still learning. I haven't run into any issues yet that I couldn't handle with the above techniques or some other simple solution, until now.

Thanks again everyone! I feel like a huge weight has been lifted now that I have some more "tools in my tool belt". ;] I think I might have to stick around this time and see what wisdom I can gather.

[prothyraia]

Originally Posted by heartmama

In the case of the OP, if a child is allowed to be rough with animals at age one and two, by age three it is normal in her mind for the pup to squeal and cry. She hits pup, pup squeals, child feels entertained to have caused a reaction, and this 'game' has been allowed to go on for years. It is not the fault of a three year old that such a situation has become so out of control.
...
This is why, and I must sound like a broken record, it is imperitive that parents with children and pets enforce boundaries from the start. Toddlers should never be left unsupervised with animals. If the animal is large, it could hurt them if they provoke it. If the animal is fragile, the child could harm it without understanding what they did. So there is really no situation where a toddler should just be left alone with animals, because toddlers are by nature unable to comprehend the danger of either scenario.
...
Parents of small children have to do the work of instilling proper training in pet care. It is not something that "just happens". This child's parents clearly have not done that work because you said this has gone on for months/years. It is their fault, not hers, that the situation is at this point.

: :