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Our test results.... updated #12, #21, #146 - Page 2

post #21 of 426
Thread Starter 

OAT results

Oh how I wish my scanner wasn't still packed away somewhere....

Here are just the results on the OAT that are outside the "normal" range (with range in parenthesis, category in brackets) and the descriptions that came with the results:
  • 3-oxoglutaric - 0.77 (0.0-0.5) [yeast/fungal]
    • Slight increase, indicating possible yeast overgrowth. Supplementation w/multi-strain probiotics (20-50 billion cfu's) recommended.
  • citric - 75.10 (180.0-560.0) [Krebs Cycle]
    • may be due to impaired function of the Krebs cycle
  • VMA - 7.07 (1.0-6.6) [Neurotransmitters]
    • Elevated VMA, a metabolite of spinephrine and norepinephrine, is commonly due to stress that increases catecholamine output from the adrenal gland. Stress affects adrenal glands, specifically depleting Vitamin C; supplementation of at least 1000mg buffered Vitamin C may be helpful.
  • 3-hydroxybutyric - 20.87 (0.0-10.0) [Fatty Acid Metabolites]
  • acetoacetic - 64.56 (0.0-10.0) [Fatty Acid Metabolites]
    • (for previous 2 results) These ketones indicate increased metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes mellitus, fasting, dieting (ketogenic or SCD diet), or illness such as nausea or flu, among many other causes.
  • suberic - 2.63 (0.0-2.0) [Fatty Acid Metabolites]
    • consistent with overnight fasting or increased fat in the diet. Regardless of cause, supplementation w/L-carnitine (500-1000mg/day) may be beneficial.
  • ascorbic - 1.8 (10.0-200.0) [Vitamin Indicators]
    • indicates a dietary defiency and/or increased utilization of antioxidants. Suggest supplementation with 1000mg per day of buffered C, divided into 2-3 doses.
  • pyridoxic - 1.11 (2.0-26.0) [Vitamin Indicators]
    • a major metabolite of Vitamin B-6; low value indicates B-6 deficiency; may be due to low intake, malabsorption, or dysbiosis. Intake of at least 20-50mg/day is recommended.
  • oxalic - 148.50 (0.0-37.0) [Oxalate Related]
    • High oxalic acid may be be found in the genetic hyperoxalurias, in autism, in women with vulvar pain, in fibromyalgia, and may also be due to vitamin C overuse. However, kidney stones were not correlated with vitamin C intake in a very large study. It is also a byproduct of molds such as Aspergillus and Penicillium and probably Candida. If yeast or fungal markers are elevated, antifungal therapy may reduce excess oxalates. High oxalates may cause anemia that is difficult to treat, skin ulcers, muscles pains, and hart abnormalities. Elevated oxalic acid is also found in anti-freeze poisoning.
    • Regardless of its source, high oxalic acid may cause kidney stones and may also reduce ionized calcium. Oxalic acid absorption from the gastrointestinal tract may be reduced by supplementation with calcium citrate before meals. Vitamin B-6, arginine, vitamin E, chondroitin sulfate, taurine, selenium, omega-3 fatty acids and N0acetyl glucosamine supplements may also be useful to reduce oxalates and/or their toxicity. Excessive fats in the diet may cause elevated oxalate if the fatty acids are poorly absorbed because of bile salt deficiency. Nonabsorbed free fatty acids bind calcium to form insoluble soaps, reducing calcium's ability to bind oxalate and increase its absorption. If taurine is low in plasma amino acid profile, supplementation with taurine may help stimulate bile salt production, leading to better fatty acid absorption and diminished oxalate absorption.
    • Bone tends to be the major repository of excess oxalate in patients with primary hyperoxaluria. Bone oxalate levels are negligible in healthy subjects. Oxalate deposition in the skeleton tends to increase bone resorption and decrease osteoblast activity.
    • Oxalates may also be deposited in the kidneys, joints, eyes, muscles, blood vessels, brain, and heart and may contribute to muscle pain in fibromyalgia. Oxalate crystal formation in the eyes may be a source of severe eye pain in individuals with autism who may have eye-poking behaviors. High oxalates in the gastrointestinal tract also may significantly reduce absorption of essential metals such as calcium, magnesium, zinc, and others.
    • A low oxalate diet may also be useful in the reduction of body oxalates even when dysbiosis is the major source of oxalates.
Whew... my fingers are tired now. Going to come back to this when I have a little more time to really process things.. have to run and pick up my Azure order in about 2 minutes though.
post #22 of 426
I'll go read in my autism forum on OAT results for you when I can, but a couple of reactions based on my very incomplete knowledge:

1) Several readings are high around fat metabolism. Possibly an issue, but with your high fat, low carb diet, perhaps fairly normal.

2) Low citric acid would be one I'd want to explore - I'll see what I can find on that for you.

3) Vitamin b-6 deficiency - in theory, that can be fixed by you taking enough b6. Are you taking some/alot already? (Wondering if your DD is able to absorb it, in that case).

4) High oxalates - make it hard to absorb a lot of minerals (including zinc, which then makes it hard to digest a lot of food...). Do you have any gut feel for why her oxalates might be high? It looks like she didn't have a lot of fungal/yeast markers.
post #23 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
I'll go read in my autism forum on OAT results for you when I can, but a couple of reactions based on my very incomplete knowledge:

1) Several readings are high around fat metabolism. Possibly an issue, but with your high fat, low carb diet, perhaps fairly normal.

2) Low citric acid would be one I'd want to explore - I'll see what I can find on that for you.

3) Vitamin b-6 deficiency - in theory, that can be fixed by you taking enough b6. Are you taking some/alot already? (Wondering if your DD is able to absorb it, in that case).

4) High oxalates - make it hard to absorb a lot of minerals (including zinc, which then makes it hard to digest a lot of food...). Do you have any gut feel for why her oxalates might be high? It looks like she didn't have a lot of fungal/yeast markers.

Yeah- I forgot to mention, out of 8 yeast/fungal markers, she was only slightly high in one- the rest were low. So I feel good about saying I don't think it's a yeast issue. At least that's one thing I can cross off the list.

I was taking the P5P for a couple weeks, then someone (you, maybe?) mentioned something about it possibly causing symptoms with high copper, so I stopped just in case that was adding to my craziness lately.

Yeah- 3 high markers in the fatty acid metabolism- obviously something I need to look into more. Need to look at the Krebs cycle stuff too, because I know nothing about it.

And obviously... she's crazy deficient in vitamin C, so I'll probably start a trial of the corn-based SA that I have (that guarantees it's ok for corn allergic folk ... but since she's only IgE and not IgG for corn, I figure it's worth a shot.)
post #24 of 426
Thread Starter 
Just looking over this article about hyperoxaluria (excessive urinary oxalate), and she fits the description of dietary hyperoxaluria (high oxalate and animal product diet) or enteric hyperoxaluria:
Quote:
Enteric hyperoxaluria accounts for approximately 5% of all cases of hyperoxaluria. It is due to a gastrointestinal problem usually associated with chronic diarrhea. Malabsorption from any cause, such as colitis or jejunoileal bypass surgery, can result in enteric hyperoxaluria.The chronic diarrhea results in smaller levels of intestinal calcium for oxalate binding. Without the calcium necessary to adequately bind oxalate in the intestinal tract, additional oxalate is absorbed and then excreted in the urinary tract. Exposure of the colonic mucosa to excess bile salts increases its oxalate permeability. Enteric hyperoxaluria is characterized by severe hyperoxaluria (usually >80 mg/d), low urinary volumes, hypocalciuria, and hypocitraturia.
hypocitraturia = a low amount of citrate in the urine

Coincidence?

hmm... both things point to kidney stones, and the hyperoxaluria to eventual renal failure. Great. Off to read more...
post #25 of 426
How much bone broth are you doing? It sounds like it could be really good for calcium, and general gut health.

eta: And what were you eating, carb-wise when you did the test? How much milk is she getting?
post #26 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
How much bone broth are you doing? It sounds like it could be really good for calcium, and general gut health.

eta: And what were you eating, carb-wise when you did the test? How much milk is she getting?
We were actually still doing grains at the time of the test- we cut them out just after. But most were just coming out whole, so I don't know how much (if any) she was actually absorbing from them.

She's nursing probably around 6-8x/day.

Bone broth off and on.... I never have enough bones to keep us stocked all the time. And she goes on and off with drinking it too- some days she loves it, some days she wants nothing to do with it.

Those oxalate numbers are really starting to freak me out the more I read. I'm thinking tomorrow I'll start giving her a little bit of calcium before meals to bind oxalates (since I don't really have the option of doing a completely low-oxalate diet), and also start vitamin C 3x/day. I don't want to give those together though, right? Or am I thinking of something else?
post #27 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Yeah- I forgot to mention, out of 8 yeast/fungal markers, she was only slightly high in one- the rest were low. So I feel good about saying I don't think it's a yeast issue. At least that's one thing I can cross off the list.

I was taking the P5P for a couple weeks, then someone (you, maybe?) mentioned something about it possibly causing symptoms with high copper, so I stopped just in case that was adding to my craziness lately.

Yeah- 3 high markers in the fatty acid metabolism- obviously something I need to look into more. Need to look at the Krebs cycle stuff too, because I know nothing about it.

And obviously... she's crazy deficient in vitamin C, so I'll probably start a trial of the corn-based SA that I have (that guarantees it's ok for corn allergic folk ... but since she's only IgE and not IgG for corn, I figure it's worth a shot.)
The stool test should tell you more about if it's yeast, but yeah, doesn't look like it here. And I was just about to point you at a very similar hyperoxaluria link!

Guessing the low C stuff is just because she has really high antioxidant needs (stressed body).
post #28 of 426
According to some posts in the autism-mercury forum:

1) you can get high oxalates from metals toxicity

2) l-carnitine and coqQ10 are good antioxidants and help with oxalates

3) milk thistle is really high in oxalates (as I say uh oh, better go read about that) - don't know if you're taking it, but thought I'd mention it

4) apparently grainy poops can be a sign of high oxalates - wasn't someone asking about that recently?

5) oxalates deplete gluthianone (big for detox), increase inflammation, and mess with zinc utilization

6) can cause bedwetting (Shannon, relevant for you?)

7) ALA (which some people use as a chelator, reduces oxalates. (I know you're read Tanya's stuff on how strong ALA is).

8) Lots of parents report whining/clinginess as an oxalates symptom

9) Many people with oxalates issues can't tolerate much vitamin C

10) Some people find b6/mag helps with oxalates, and vitamin K

11) High oxalates often come out as rashes/spots/even sometimes hives

12) There's a probiotic called vsl#3 that has strain that is supposed to help process oxalates
post #29 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
According to some posts in the autism-mercury forum:

1) you can get high oxalates from metals toxicity

2) l-carnitine and coqQ10 are good antioxidants and help with oxalates

3) milk thistle is really high in oxalates (as I say uh oh, better go read about that) - don't know if you're taking it, but thought I'd mention it

4) apparently grainy poops can be a sign of high oxalates - wasn't someone asking about that recently?

5) oxalates deplete gluthianone (big for detox), increase inflammation, and mess with zinc utilization

6) can cause bedwetting (Shannon, relevant for you?)

7) ALA (which some people use as a chelator, reduces oxalates. (I know you're read Tanya's stuff on how strong ALA is).

8) Lots of parents report whining/clinginess as an oxalates symptom

9) Many people with oxalates issues can't tolerate much vitamin C

10) Some people find b6/mag helps with oxalates, and vitamin K

11) High oxalates often come out as rashes/spots/even sometimes hives

12) There's a probiotic called vsl#3 that has strain that is supposed to help process oxalates
huh. makes me think CS's puzzle piece is just a bigger version of some other people's issues here..
somethibg i definitely need to look at. thanks, deb
post #30 of 426
From the vitamink yahoo group, I learned that there are specific gut bacteria that break down oxalates, and that the gut works more or less on a gradient system - the more free oxalates, the more are absorbed into the body, but if they're all bound or degraded, then the body can dump some to the gut for excretion. VSL#3 was the probiotic of choice when I was following the list a year or so ago.

In terms of krebs cycle, oxaloacetate binds with acetyl coA to get citrate. Remembering that I *don't* know what I'm talking about, I wonder if lack of coA or something in that step is why there's a buildup of oxalate and low citrate. I haven't read the oxalate links... But given the stress markers, and the stress *you're* under, and the fact that you need coA for making the adrenal hormones... Are you supping pantothenic acid? The low B6 could play in here as well...

Time for me to go hide upstairs. I'll see what I can find from up there. BTW, what results are you still waiting on now?
post #31 of 426
Thread Starter 
Still waiting on the comprehensive stool results, which should be in soon, and hopefully give us a few more answers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
According to some posts in the autism-mercury forum:

1) you can get high oxalates from metals toxicity

2) l-carnitine and coqQ10 are good antioxidants and help with oxalates

3) milk thistle is really high in oxalates (as I say uh oh, better go read about that) - don't know if you're taking it, but thought I'd mention it

great.... I take it every day.


4) apparently grainy poops can be a sign of high oxalates - wasn't someone asking about that recently?

yeah- I don't remember who though!

5) oxalates deplete gluthianone (big for detox), increase inflammation, and mess with zinc utilization

yep- it said it inhibits mag too

6) can cause bedwetting (Shannon, relevant for you?)

7) ALA (which some people use as a chelator, reduces oxalates. (I know you're read Tanya's stuff on how strong ALA is).

8) Lots of parents report whining/clinginess as an oxalates symptom

wow- that has been a HUGE symptom for us this past few days. Also in the past week, she's become sensitive to raisins (previously tolerated)- they cause immediate loose poops. And I'm thinking that maybe that's the issue with buckwheat (also high oxalates)... maybe her levels finally got so high that she can't tolerate the higher oxalate foods anymore.

9) Many people with oxalates issues can't tolerate much vitamin C

10) Some people find b6/mag helps with oxalates, and vitamin K

11) High oxalates often come out as rashes/spots/even sometimes hives

That's really interesting- the buckwheat was also causing blotches on her face by the time we pulled it. Quinoa did the same thing after a few days of eating it- is that high oxalate as well? Oh- just checked... WHFoods lists it as a common source of oxalates. Interesting!!!!

12) There's a probiotic called vsl#3 that has strain that is supposed to help process oxalates

Will check it out. Lisa was taking that one. I wonder if it has any allergens in it?
Interesting stuff! I'm really feeling like I'm getting some answers here. I wish we would have done the OAT a year ago!!!
post #32 of 426
Thread Starter 
Oh yeah- this was in that article that I was reading earlier (that I forgot to link- oops):
Quote:
Oxalobacter formigenes is an intestinal bacterium that can degrade oxalate. Some studies have shown a correlation between decreased activity of this bacterium in the intestine and hyperoxaluria and stone formation
I wonder if that's the strain in VSL#3, or if it's something else? Off to look...

eta: Just looked... it's got cornstarch in it. (And I can't find what strains it includes.)
post #33 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Oh yeah- this was in that article that I was reading earlier (that I forgot to link- oops):
I wonder if that's the strain in VSL#3, or if it's something else? Off to look...

eta: Just looked... it's got cornstarch in it. (And I can't find what strains it includes.)
I feel like maybe it's the bifido? Is there even bifido in VSL? You can get it in capsules, too, and those are free of obvious corn, not sure about trace or what it's grown on. Tomorrow I have to get out of the (sick) house and I'm going to put a package in the mail for you. Want me to include some VSL caps in there?
post #34 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
I feel like maybe it's the bifido? Is there even bifido in VSL? You can get it in capsules, too, and those are free of obvious corn, not sure about trace or what it's grown on. Tomorrow I have to get out of the (sick) house and I'm going to put a package in the mail for you. Want me to include some VSL caps in there?
Sure! If you have a few extra, I'm game to try it! The VSL website said the ingredients were 8 strains and cornstarch. Not sure which one I was looking at though...
post #35 of 426
Hey, oxalates would totally explain the bump on J's finger, too! Is it still there? I wonder if you could use it as a marker of your progress dealing with the issue...
post #36 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Hey, oxalates would totally explain the bump on J's finger, too! Is it still there? I wonder if you could use it as a marker of your progress dealing with the issue...
I was wondering about that when I saw "oxalate deposits" in one of the articles- wasn't sure exactly what they were. That would be so cool though if it went away though!! Yeah- it's still there.
post #37 of 426
Have you seen this??
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com...0the%20OAT.pdf

Assuming glycolic and glyceric acids are normal since you didn't post them, it lists b6 deficiency as a cause of high oxalates...
post #38 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Have you seen this??
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com...0the%20OAT.pdf

Assuming glycolic and glyceric acids are normal since you didn't post them, it lists b6 deficiency as a cause of high oxalates...
No... I didn't see that. Was looking for it too.

Yeah- her glyceric and glycolic were actually a little lower than normal. So I could take the b6 myself, right? I have the P5P tablets on hand, which are 50mg. How much should would you supp if you were me?
post #39 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
I was wondering about that when I saw "oxalate deposits" in one of the articles- wasn't sure exactly what they were. That would be so cool though if it went away though!! Yeah- it's still there.
back to the vitamink group, they talk about calcium oxalates crystals forming in odd places, and using vitamin k to break them up. They also talk about those crystals trapping viruses such that when they get broken up, you might get sick as a reaction.

You might want to join that group, if just to read the files/links. There's also the 'competing' group, 'trying low oxalates' or something like that. But limiting your diet even more is kind of impossible...
post #40 of 426
I think maybe the upside here is the imbalance issues like this can often move pretty quickly once you figure out what to do. It sounds like a lot of the recent worsening, at least, might be oxalates related.

I did a search for that probiotic strain, and I can't find it in any publicly available probiotic. But bifido is supposed to be helpful there too, so I think that's definitely worth a try. Vitamin K too, if you can find a safe source for that - can you do the fermented CLO? That has lots of vitamin K in it...

ETA: LOL, we're all posting on top of each other
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