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Our test results.... updated #12, #21, #146 - Page 3

post #41 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
No... I didn't see that. Was looking for it too.

Yeah- her glyceric and glycolic were actually a little lower than normal. So I could take the b6 myself, right? I have the P5P tablets on hand, which are 50mg. How much should would you supp if you were me?
You're likely low as well, so I'd go pretty high. When I first started supping, the nutritionist started me on 200mg b6, which I then switched to 200mg PLP plus what was in the b complex, either 50 or 100mg. Given what I know now, I'd spread it out a bit more, and basically see how high you can go (with the other B's of course) and watch for positive (or negative) change in either of you. B6 is like b12 in that they both can store in the body. I'm a big fan of nutrient reserves
post #42 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
No... I didn't see that. Was looking for it too.

Yeah- her glyceric and glycolic were actually a little lower than normal. So I could take the b6 myself, right? I have the P5P tablets on hand, which are 50mg. How much should would you supp if you were me?
You can. When DS was deficient, I had him on 20mg a day, so I'd guess you could take a couple (one morning, one afternoon - don't take it too late in the day, it can make little ones hyper if they get too much). Maybe even more if you are deficient too. Do you have a B complex? I wouldn't take that much P5P alone for very long, it's likely to create other B deficiencies...
post #43 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
I think maybe the upside here is the imbalance issues like this can often move pretty quickly once you figure out what to do. It sounds like a lot of the recent worsening, at least, might be oxalates related.

I did a search for that probiotic strain, and I can't find it in any publicly available probiotic. But bifido is supposed to be helpful there too, so I think that's definitely worth a try. Vitamin K too, if you can find a safe source for that - can you do the fermented CLO? That has lots of vitamin K in it...

ETA: LOL, we're all posting on top of each other
Really, fCLO has vit K? is it k2? Bone marrow is another source, and carlsons makes a capsule and someone, thorne maybe? has drops.
post #44 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Really, fCLO has vit K? is it k2? Bone marrow is another source, and carlsons makes a capsule and someone, thorne maybe? has drops.
Dunno - it's in the quinones - I read it on the greenpasture guy's blog, but I can't find it now. He says it depends on which oils and when they do the assays, but there's 8-9mg/g of quinones in the fish oils, and vitamin K is part of the mix (as well as coQ10 and several other unknown quinones) - I figure K and coQ10 are on the list of oxalate fighters, it would be a good possibility for Jess. Do you know, would that pass in bm? (Cuz the fCLO tastes BLECK. I put it in capsules).
post #45 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
Dunno - it's in the quinones - I read it on the greenpasture guy's blog, but I can't find it now. He says it depends on which oils and when they do the assays, but there's 8-9mg/g of quinones in the fish oils, and vitamin K is part of the mix (as well as coQ10 and several other unknown quinones) - I figure K and coQ10 are on the list of oxalate fighters, it would be a good possibility for Jess. Do you know, would that pass in bm? (Cuz the fCLO tastes BLECK. I put it in capsules).
Interesting. I know k will pass into milk, but I don't know about the others...
post #46 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Interesting. I know k will pass into milk, but I don't know about the others...
Guessing so, since they're obviously fat soluble and I think all the fat soluble vites pass???
post #47 of 426
More, from this link:

"Excessive fats in the diet may cause elevated oxalate if the fatty acids are poorly absorbed because of bile salt deficiency. Nonabsorbed free fatty acids bind calcium to form insoluble soaps, reducing calcium ability to bind oxalate and reduce oxalate absorption (20). If taurine is low in the plasma amino acid profile, supplementation with taurine may help stimulate bile salt production (taurocholic acid), leading to better fatty acid absorption and diminished oxalate absorption.

...Both Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium lactis have enzymes that degrade oxalates (22).

...Increase intake of essential omega-3 fatty acids, commonly found in fish oil and cod liver oil, which reduces oxalate problems (23). High amounts of the omega-6 fatty acid, arachidonic acid, are associated with increased oxalate problems (24). Meat from grain fed animals is high in arachidonic acid."

That link also says if you are high in copper, then vite C tends to be converted to oxalates. So maybe supping vite C isn't your first step here...

And from my autism resources again, high oxalates can cause histamine release and histamine sensitivity.
post #48 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
How much bone broth are you doing? It sounds like it could be really good for calcium, and general gut health.
Yes, dh had pink poop with beets, until he started bone broth each morning. (as an aside, he has so many more nutrients, he is detoxing through his skin more/eczema flare. So, we are backing down with the kefir. He was drinking ~1/2 cup a day 'cause he has a lot of yeast issues.)


Pat
post #49 of 426
VSL#3 Lactic Acid Bacteria Probiotic

COMPOSITION PER PACKET OF VSL#3
Lactic Acid Bacteria: - 450 billion/packet

Streptococcus thermophilus
Bifidobacterium breve
Bifidobacterium longum
Bifidobacterium infantis
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus casei
Lactobacillus bulgaricus

Other Ingredient contained in VSL3: Corn Starch

http://www.crohns.net/page/C/PROD/Probiotic/VSL3000
http://www.crohns.net/Miva/productinfo/whyVSL3.shtml
http://www.vsl3.com/about-vsl-special.asp
http://www.vsl3.com/healthcare.asp


Pat
post #50 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Really, fCLO has vit K? is it k2? Bone marrow is another source, and carlsons makes a capsule and someone, thorne maybe? has drops.
Apparently, Stephan Guyenet of Whole Health Source thinks, "It may contain K2 but probably not the MK-4 form."

Green Pasture's Update on Cod Liver Oil Manufacturing, "Since this product is a fermented one, we surmised that it would contain vitamin K2 as well as vitamins A and D. What we found was a range of quinones, which include the various forms of K2. The fermentation increases the total quinone count by 700-1600 percent compared to readings prior to the fermentation process. We have not identified the specific quinones but I suspect that the K2 category and Co-enzyme Q family will."




Pat
post #51 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
According to some posts in the autism-mercury forum:

11) High oxalates often come out as rashes/spots/even sometimes hives
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
More, from this link:
...Increase intake of essential omega-3 fatty acids, commonly found in fish oil and cod liver oil, which reduces oxalate problems (23). High amounts of the omega-6 fatty acid, arachidonic acid, are associated with increased oxalate problems (24). Meat from grain fed animals is high in arachidonic acid."

And from my autism resources again, high oxalates can cause histamine release and histamine sensitivity.
arachidonic acid inhibition was related to the Singulair.

This is interesting as we ran out of the CLO, just before dh's rash/eczema/itching has increased, while increasing bone broth and green juice (oxalates) consumption.
Pat
post #52 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
Guessing so, since they're obviously fat soluble and I think all the fat soluble vites pass???
The fat soluble stuff is funky, though. A lot has to do with mom's status rather than her intake, and they're not all the same. I know fatty acid composition reflects diet... And I have no idea on stuff like coQ10 and such. I have a book I could check if anyone really is curious
post #53 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
I think maybe the upside here is the imbalance issues like this can often move pretty quickly once you figure out what to do. It sounds like a lot of the recent worsening, at least, might be oxalates related.
Yes- that's what I'm hoping for, on both counts!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
You can. When DS was deficient, I had him on 20mg a day, so I'd guess you could take a couple (one morning, one afternoon - don't take it too late in the day, it can make little ones hyper if they get too much). Maybe even more if you are deficient too. Do you have a B complex? I wouldn't take that much P5P alone for very long, it's likely to create other B deficiencies...
Good point. I'll try to pick up the Thorne B-complex too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Really, fCLO has vit K? is it k2? Bone marrow is another source, and carlsons makes a capsule and someone, thorne maybe? has drops.
hmmmm... DD eats bone marrow at least a few times a week- every time we make a lamb steak (almost every night), DP digs out the marrow for her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
That link also says if you are high in copper, then vite C tends to be converted to oxalates. So maybe supping vite C isn't your first step here...
aaaahhhh- crap.

I've started us back on the CLO a couple weeks ago, so I will be vigilant about that. (I haven't tried the FCLO- honestly it's just not in our budget. I'm using TwinLabs, which is like $5 a bottle- big difference!) Maybe I'll just do the calcium before meals for now and hope it binds any oxalates that we're consuming at least.
post #54 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Maybe I'll just do the calcium before meals for now and hope it binds any oxalates that we're consuming at least.
for the K, the doses they're using are way way higher than anything you can get from food. Not saying to necessarily go there, just that they're using it more medicinally, with a million other supps to support it.

For the calcium, it seems like it should bind with the metabolic oxalates as well as dietary ones. I like calcium. Don't go too low!
post #55 of 426
Thread Starter 
Looking further into this article I've been reading... looks like calcium supping is definitely the most recommended treatment for enteric.

Quote:
Initial first-line therapies include a low-oxalate diet while maintaining adequate calcium intake (will supp DD), pyridoxine (vitamin B-6) (will supp me), increased fluids (this is tricky- I can get DD to chug down a whole glass of blueberry juice mixed with water... but blueberry is high oxalate. Otherwise, she might drink a total of like 2oz of water a day), and optimization of other calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis risk factors. Limit ingestion of vitamin C (damn, she's so deficient! ) and cranberry juice products. Calcium supplements are the initial treatment of choice for enteric hyperoxaluria, along with a low-fat diet (might have to start trimming her meat. She will not be happy about that), antidiarrheal therapy, and sufficient potassium citrate (maybe more bananas? or is that the wrong form of potassium?) supplementation to maintain optimal urinary citrate levels. Vitamin E can be safely added to any hyperoxaluria treatment regimen (don't really have any options here, as supps are all soy or synthetic [which aren't as effective]).

Quote:
The intestinal tract is normally colonized with Oxalobacter at approximately age 3 years. Oxalobacter loss is primarily due to prolonged or repeated antibiotic therapy. Fluoroquinolones, cephalosporins, tetracyclines, and macrolide preparations are particularly toxic to Oxalobacter bacteria, while penicillin and sulfa drugs have relatively little effect.
I am allergic to both penecillin and sulfa drugs, so I have taken these other abx my whole life. Wonder if my O.formigenes has been completely wiped out. (not that it makes a difference in DD though, since it doesn't colonize until age 3.)
post #56 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
for the K, the doses they're using are way way higher than anything you can get from food. Not saying to necessarily go there, just that they're using it more medicinally, with a million other supps to support it.

For the calcium, it seems like it should bind with the metabolic oxalates as well as dietary ones. I like calcium. Don't go too low!
Do you know if there's an allergen-free K supp?
post #57 of 426
you guys rock.
post #58 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Looking further into this article I've been reading... looks like calcium supping is definitely the most recommended treatment for enteric.

I am allergic to both penecillin and sulfa drugs, so I have taken these other abx my whole life. Wonder if my O.formigenes has been completely wiped out. (not that it makes a difference in DD though, since it doesn't colonize until age 3.)
If it were us, I'd see what happens with b6 and calcium alone before adding other stuff in (like cutting of the fat she loves).

I'm allergic to penicillin too, and don't think i've ever had sulfa drugs. And was on tetracycline for YEARS at a time due to high school acne... Wondering what oxalate signs I would look for... And hmm, maybe that's part of why I like calcium so much?
post #59 of 426
Thanks for that list Deb. Wow. It seems REALLY relevant. Must investigate further.

I have the list of probiotic strains in the VSL#3 that our pedi GI doc in Montana gave me with a study on it. Let me see if I can dig it up...
post #60 of 426
lactobacillus plantarum MB452
lactobacillus acidophilus MB443
lactobacillus delbruekii subsp. bulgaricus MB453
streptococcus salivarius subsp. thermophilus MB455
bifidobacterium breve Y8
lactobacillus casei MB451
bifidobacterium infantis Y1
bifidobacterium longum Y10
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