Messianic Muslims?

[umsami]

OK, a friend emailed me this, and I have to say, "I was really surprised to read about it." Just never expected it... I guess because theoretically in Islam, Jesus is a very well-loved prophet... and the Bible is viewed as one of God's Books. With the thread on Messianic Judaism, thought I'd throw this in there.

But nonetheless, here you go...
http://www.christianitytoday.com/glo...009/index.html

I can see doing something like this, if you lived in one of the countries where converting away from Islam could lead to death/banishment/etc.

I also found the words of this one Muslim follower of Jesus very eloquent...
http://www.christianitytoday.com/glo...4.html?start=1

So Muslim Mamas, what do you think? Are they still Muslims? (And I didn't find anything that addressed whether or not they believed Muhammad was one of God's prophets.) Christian Mamas, what about you? Does somebody have to label themselves a Christian to be one? Or is following Jesus enough?

[genifer]

I havent had a chance to read all of the articles you posted. Ill definately do so tomorrow.

I did want to answer your question to christian mamas which I felt could be answered without having read the articles... if thats ok.

Christian Mamas, what about you? Does somebody have to label themselves a Christian to be one? Or is following Jesus enough?

As a christian, I understand that we are meant to face opposition head on. Not hide our faith, ykwim? If this means persecution for leaving our previous faith, well, as difficult as that may be I believe the two cant mix. Like you said Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet. We believe He is equal with God, I do anyway, this is my understanding of scripture. That Jesus is the visible image of the invisable Godhead. We all know that most christians believe that and I know it upsets some when some of us vocalise this, but ..like I said I believe it to be absolute truth.

At the same time, I dont want to dismiss anyone confessing a faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldnt have a problem having fellowship with anyone confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, as long as they too believed certain things about Him too. Some things are not worth causing division over, others I believe there is NO room for compromise... the divinity of Jesus Christ isone of them. Lots of people call themselves christians, and ..well... who am I to say they cant, but as far as fellowship is concerned, there are just certain things about Jesus Christ, and in regards to what one believes ABOUT Him, that I cant compromise on.

Does that answer your question?

[lilyka]

I wonder if these lables (messianic Jew/messianic Muslim) have to do with if Jew and Muslim are more cultural identifier than religous ones.

I also think in the light and tradition of protestant Christianity and self interpretation of scripture that this does work. I mean it really is anyone choice how they want to work what is familiar and relevent to them into their meaning of Christianity.

[TzippityDoulah]

the name "christian" has nothing to spiritually to do with what we are. politically it does. so yes you can surely be a follower of Christ without adopting the label "christian". why would you want to? well I guess it would depend. perhaps you believe in Jesus but you don't believe in the faith that associates itself with jesus? (for instance)

I thin there are more reasons than you trying ot "hide your faith" for not adopting the name "christian". that said I don't think hiding your faith should be considered "ok" either.

[Liquesce]

Personally I think if they are able to make a good-faith case for the verses in the Qur'an dealing with the crucifiction of Jesus not meaning what Muslims have typically believed, and otherwise retain that Muhammad was a prophet, there really can be no question of going all takfir on them for their beliefs.

Honestly I'd have liked to hear less about the controversy and more about the theology involved.

[genifer]

Honestly I'd have liked to hear less about the controversy and more about the theology involved.

Yeah, that, bc from what I know about Islam, it simply and honestly, imho, doesnt ...marry well with christianity and Knowing Jesus as their Lord, ykwim? Id like to hear more of the nitty gritty bits before I completely dismiss someone. yk? Id have to understand a person's theology, understanding of Jesus before Id personally have a bible study with them, or even pray with them for that matter.

Like I aluded to before, nowadays anybody can and does take the title of christianity and sometimes, I just dont dig what they're doing. Its like, there are some christians who, theologically, doctrinally and spiritually, I just dont get. So, I think this is why its hard to navigate the whole modern christian scene.

[genifer]

Just reading the second article you posted... It is very interesting, Id like to comment on it.

She talks about if she were jewish and a follower of Jesus, she'd be lauded by christians for maintaining her jewish customs... that is probably true, but she would undoubtedly be completely ousted and ostricised by her jewish community and family.

I wonder if this is more to do with culture then religion.

I agree with these statements.

I long for the day when we can err on the side of preferring and respecting one another, resisting the temptation to search out heresy every time someone disagrees with us or challenges the status quo.

I say to my Christian brothers and sisters as they consider the idea of Muslim followers of Jesus, "Show me that you love Muslims! Show me that your attitude is like that of our Lord! Show me that you are acting out of love and not out of the emotions that surface when two civilizations collide!"

She talks about being born a muslim, or being born jewish, or christian. Now, I dont know how you guys feel about this but one cannot be born a christian, this is something I firmly believe. One has to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as an act of their own personal self will in order to be a christian. I guess one can be born a catholic, in the same way this woman describes herself as being born a muslim, in a cultural sense, but to be a follower of Jesus Christ, one has to choose to do so. It becomes a life, not a lifestyle, not cultural, bc Jesus Christ and His gospel message of salvation crosses cultures. Embraces them, I believe. I do believe that when ANY one comes to Christ, there are inevitably things we must let go of, leave behind, BUT, God alone will instruct an individual in what areas to do so...

I didnt come from any kind of religious background. Ok, my mom was an irish catholic, in the sense that she sent her children to good catholic schools and went to church when the priest gave her a nasty look in the car park when she picked us up. I was confirmed, did the first communion, had catholic religious classes, but none of it stuck. I never considered myself a catholic, I never was. None of the religious stuff stuck. I was simply culturally american, probably lower middle class. I came to Christ as a young adult, very young, 21. I was into the local drug scene. This was my culture and I obviously had to leave all of it behind. My family didnt understand my sudden change, so they were rather hostile towards me for YEARS! I left my home country to follow where I believe God was leading me, marriage, kids. Im almost convinced that anyone coming to really know Christ, will inevitably be forced to leave something behind. Some may disagree, I believe this is what Jesus teaches. I didnt make these choices after reading those verses, I was led by God into the life I have now, then I came upon the verses about forsaking your family for Him, just an example. I didnt read those verses and say 'Right I need to ditch my family and friends', it just happened that way, then I study and walk with God for some years and see that scripturally speaking, Im not alone! This is how God has done things with those people in the bible! Its a pattern for Him to take us and remove us from our old lives and make us new for His use and purposes. Thats how it works for me. God leads me, then he confirms what He's done, often with scripture. Im sure there are some christians who can relate to what Im trying to say. Most nonbelievers dont understand, tho.

I didnt mean to make this ALL about leaving one's culture. I just think it can play a major part in one's faith in Christ. However, Ive heard it said that when a muslim accepts Christ, that He died for their sins and all that, that they are not at all accepted within the muslim community. Ive only heard of muslim converts to christianity being severely persecuted by their family and muslim community. Im wondering if some muslim families are more moderate, or more liberal and dont have a problem when other muslims convert to christianity. Then again, maybe the more extreme end is the only one really written about in biographies.

Has anyone ever heard of Sundar Singh? I hope Im spelling it right. He was a sikh believer in Christ and a missionary in the early 20th century. He was a Sadhu. Oh I hope Im getting this right.

Found a wiki link... Im not sure if all the info's correct (you know how wiki is, and if Im honest with you, they do get it wrong a lot of times when it comes to christians, seems biased against them sometimes... so, yk, just saying)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu_Sundar_Singh

He was a follower of Christ, but he kept his sikh identity and travelled, preached and such in the same way a sikh sadhu would have.

So, ...stitch...

[cappuccinosmom]

If someone identifies Christ as the Messiah, and believes on him alone for their salvation, then they are a Christ-follower no matter what label they or anyone else uses.

But I'd be interested to get a clearer view on their theology. Christianity doesn't identify Mohammed as a prophet at all, so continuing to believe that might be a sticky issue.

However, if it's a matter of maintaining cultural idenity, or a new believer who's just not able to take on the burden of martyrdom where that would be likely, I have no problem with it.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Originally Posted by genifer

As a christian, I understand that we are meant to face opposition head on. Not hide our faith, ykwim? If this means persecution for leaving our previous faith, well, as difficult as that may be I believe the two cant mix. Like you said Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet. We believe He is equal with God, I do anyway, this is my understanding of scripture. That Jesus is the visible image of the invisable Godhead. We all know that most christians believe that and I know it upsets some when some of us vocalise this, but ..like I said I believe it to be absolute truth.

The problem here is that in some Muslim cultures, the penalty for denying Islam is death, and that actually being carried out is NOT uncommon, and not illegal(or at least, not prosecutable).

Originally Posted by genifer

She talks about being born a muslim, or being born jewish, or christian. Now, I dont know how you guys feel about this but one cannot be born a christian, this is something I firmly believe. One has to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as an act of their own personal self will in order to be a christian. I guess one can be born a catholic, in the same way this woman describes herself as being born a muslim, in a cultural sense, but to be a follower of Jesus Christ, one has to choose to do so. It becomes a life, not a lifestyle, not cultural, bc Jesus Christ and His gospel message of salvation crosses cultures. Embraces them, I believe. I do believe that when ANY one comes to Christ, there are inevitably things we must let go of, leave behind, BUT, God alone will instruct an individual in what areas to do so...

Muslims, generally speaking, believe that one is born Muslim. It's simply a different belief system. I believe many Jews also believe one is born a Jew. And so it would only make sense that saying a child born into a Christian household and raised in that religion is "born Christian." It may not be exactly accurate, but it's easy to see why one would think of it that way.

[genifer]

The problem here is that in some Muslim cultures, the penalty for denying Islam is death, and that actually being carried out is NOT uncommon, and not illegal(or at least, not prosecutable).

Absolutely, I do think I mentioned something along those lines in my post there. Maybe you missed that bit. I know this, very scary stuff.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by SubliminalDarkness

Muslims, generally speaking, believe that one is born Muslim. It's simply a different belief system.

FWIW, it's a lot more complicated than that.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by genifer

Yeah, that, bc from what I know about Islam, it simply and honestly, imho, doesnt ...marry well with christianity and Knowing Jesus as their Lord, ykwim?

FWIW, Judaism, simply and honestly, doesn't marry well with Christianity, either. "Knowing Jesus as their lord" is entirely 100% sacrilege in a Jewish context.

Judaism and Islam are very similar in their insistence that there is One G!d and that One G!d is indivisible and incorporeal.

Originally Posted by SubliminalDarkness

I believe many Jews also believe one is born a Jew.

For the record, *all* Jews believe that the child of a Jewish mother is born a Jew. Period. No exceptions.

Some Jews believe that the child of a Jewish father (and a nonJewish mother) is born a Jew.

Just for the record.

[umsami]

Originally Posted by genifer

Just reading the second article you posted... It is very interesting, Id like to comment on it.

She talks about if she were jewish and a follower of Jesus, she'd be lauded by christians for maintaining her jewish customs... that is probably true, but she would undoubtedly be completely ousted and ostricised by her jewish community and family...

Genifer..which article? The second article that I posted is about a man, not woman. Mazhar Mallouhi is a man.

Here is more on him.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazhar_Mallouhi

http://www.al-kalima.com/


And since I really used to like Phillip Yancey's books (well, still do, but it's been awhile), this is what he says about the book about Mazhar Mallouhi, "Pilgrims of Christ on the Muslim Road,".... "“I consider this an important book. What a life Mazhar Mallouhi has lived! He stands in an almost singular position as a bridge between two worlds which, alas, seem to be separated by an ever-increasing divide.”" Eugene Peterson and Bishop Desmond Tutu also speak glowingly about the book.

I guess to understand his theology, I'll have to buy it.

[genifer]

Im so sorry, umsami, maybe they changed something, bc I clicked on the link and it took me to a response, I think, which was done by a woman. Maybe thats what happened. I was responding to a woman who, in hindsight, was responding, possibly to the main article...

Quote:
Originally Posted by genifer View Post
Yeah, that, bc from what I know about Islam, it simply and honestly, imho, doesnt ...marry well with christianity and Knowing Jesus as their Lord, ykwim?

FWIW, Judaism, simply and honestly, doesn't marry well with Christianity, either. "Knowing Jesus as their lord" is entirely 100% sacrilege in a Jewish context.

Merpk, Im not sure what to say in responce to this. I dont see it that way at all. I know you know that, and I know that you and most of judaism feel this way. How about we conceed to one another and just say we see the scriptures very differently. Ill have to go back and see where I said that judaism and christianity married well... hmmm. I didnt want to get into a debate with you on the issue as to whether or not christianity married well with judaism, actuallly. Im sorry if something I said gave you that impression. You believe it doesnt, I believe the old testament (christian scriptures) marries beautifully with a belief in Jesus Christ as Messiah, but this isnt a thread about that. Again, I apologise for giving you the impression I wanted to tackle that sticky issue.

[genifer]

I am really confused umsami! and feel like a twit! lol.

when I click on the link you provided, the second on in the op, it takes me to a page where people have commented on a book by Joseph Cumming's called 'Muslim Followers of Jesus?'.

Ok, I clicked on the first link and I think its the article you are talking about. The second link, I believe, is a response to the article.

My apologies...

ok, I got to page 6 of the article... thats a long article...

Very interesting stuff. At the end of the day, who am I to decide who is a true disciple of Jesus Christ or not. The muslim believers described in the article, I would find fascinating to have fellowship with. I would feel privileged and blessed to fellowship with believers from differing cultures, its something Ive always wanted to do actually.

I think part of the problem with those on the side of the fence that say muslims cant be christians and keep their muslim identity is usually an issue of exercising caution, extreme as they may be in some cases. Christianity today is riddled with all kinds of ..uuummm.. how to put it? I want to use the word Apostacy. Some people have left the interpretation of scripture not to the Holy Spirit, but to their own devices, and leaders/instructors who basically tell them what they want to hear, using all kinds of things apart from the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. This is a sticky issue and I dont mean to open a can of worms, Im just trying to explain why some of us, including myself most of the time, err on the side of caution when it comes to things like 'this'. One extreme is to throw out so much of scripture so it is so inclusive that it takes away the meaning of the Gospel, that Jesus came to save sinners thru repentance and a life changing belief in Jesus Christ. The other extreme, I guess, is to be so afraid of becoming 'contaminated' by worldly doctrine that we actually miss the leading of the Holy Spirit when it leads us into areas like 'this'.

Am I making any sense to anyone?

[genifer]

Oh yeah, and Philip Yancey is one of my favourite christian authors. I loved Soul Survivor. Really opened my eyes, that one.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by genifer

Merpk, Im not sure what to say in responce to this. I dont see it that way at all. I know you know that, and I know that you and most of judaism feel this way. How about we conceed to one another and just say we see the scriptures very differently. Ill have to go back and see where I said that judaism and christianity married well... hmmm. I didnt want to get into a debate with you on the issue as to whether or not christianity married well with judaism, actuallly. Im sorry if something I said gave you that impression. You believe it doesnt, I believe the old testament (christian scriptures) marries beautifully with a belief in Jesus Christ as Messiah, but this isnt a thread about that. Again, I apologise for giving you the impression I wanted to tackle that sticky issue.

You didn't have to respond. I was just clarifying, since your post seemed to imply some sort of difference between the Jesus=lord viz-a-viz Judaism and Jesus=lord viz-a-viz Islam. And there isn't any.

I wasn't necessarily addressing you, or looking for you to respond. A lot of people read these threads, and misinformation on these threads isn't helpful to anyone.

[umsami]

Originally Posted by genifer

Im so sorry, umsami, maybe they changed something, bc I clicked on the link and it took me to a response, I think, which was done by a woman. Maybe thats what happened. I was responding to a woman who, in hindsight, was responding, possibly to the main article...:

LOL I actually thought... hmmm... maybe I linked to something else by mistake? (Yes, I do that...all the time) Or then I thought, well, maybe somebody else linked to something else I need to read.

It is a response (at least I think) to the main article, but I think it's also more like a profile of one of the Muslim Christians or whatever they're calling them. It's probably a lot clearer in print than online (like a sidebar or whatever).

[mntnmom]

Are we assuming that one must accept the divinity of Christ to be a Christian? Or can one be Christian simply be striving to live by Christ's example?
But besides that, why can't one accept the divinity of Christ, and also accept that later revelations were given to his prophet for mankind?
I can see that there would be theological bumps to work out, but I would say accepting either faith independently has plenty of those. Isn't believing that it is true, while working to learn what it all means for your life what faith is all about?
Of course, people on both sides will likely fail to understand, but don't we frequently misunderstand the faith of others?

[genifer]

I personally believe that to be a christian means to know Jesus Christ and that to know Him means to Know He is divine, eternal, God, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the image of the invisible God. That Jesus is the one talked about in Isaiah 9 that says ''For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.''

Thats me personally and thats what I believe the bible teaches, what Jesus Christ taught Himself, I know some would argue otherwise, but this is where I firmly stand.