Messianic Muslims? - Page 2

[cappuccinosmom]

Doesn't Islam directly and vehemently contradict the divinity and "sonship" of Christ, though? That's a pretty big wrinkle, I would think.

Lots of people think Jesus was a good man/great prophet without being Christian. I wouldn't think that would even be an issue for a Muslim. The only reason there would be any issue would be a person calling themselves Christian or Muslim-Christian or Messianic Muslim (serious tension, there, on all sides) or a person accepting Christian theology including Jesus not only being divine, but the Son of God, God made flesh on earth. If this was only about believing Jesus to be a great prophet, or following his advice on relating to others, I don't think there'd be any debate, kwim?

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Doesn't Islam directly and vehemently contradict the divinity and "sonship" of Christ, though? That's a pretty big wrinkle, I would think.

Lots of people think Jesus was a good man/great prophet without being Christian. I wouldn't think that would even be an issue for a Muslim. The only reason there would be any issue would be a person calling themselves Christian or Muslim-Christian or Messianic Muslim (serious tension, there, on all sides) or a person accepting Christian theology including Jesus not only being divine, but the Son of God, God made flesh on earth. If this was only about believing Jesus to be a great prophet, or following his advice on relating to others, I don't think there'd be any debate, kwim?

Sects are usually formed on irreconcilable differences of opinion. I'm guessing what they're doing is disagreeing with trinitarian Christianity overall, viewing Jesus as either strictly fully divine (contrary to pretty much all of Islam) or fully human (which I'm pretty sure isn't without at least some narrow precedent in Christian history), possibly accepting the occasional Muslim view that the Bible prophesied Muhammad, and thoroughly reinterpreting the verses of the Qur'an dealing with the crucifixion of Jesus to allow for his death, resurrection, and perhaps a somewhat more Christian view of his role in the end of times.

I mean, obviously I don't know ... but I can see how that could sort of work. Offend a great many Christians and Muslims alike, sure ... but still work.

[hrsmom]

I thought this was a fascinating thread, and didn't have a chance to reply before. I just wanted to throw in that there are many Christians who call themselves Christians but don't believe Jesus is "the messiah" or "God in a man's body." (I am one such Christian.) So naturally I don't have a problem with a Muslim saying that they follow Jesus and have been touched by the Spirit through him. I don't claim to speak for all flavors of Christians, of course, but did want to throw in my perspective.

[Nabbe]

I dont think they are muslims, are they? What are their stands on tawheed? And Isa? I did not quite understand, maybe I am having a "bad english-day" hehe.

[Liquesce]

Oddly enough I recently came across another set of references to "Messianic Muslims," but this was in the context of a debate among some evangelical ministries with regard to the legitimacy of trying to use the Qur'an and some Islamic traditions to win Christian converts in majority Muslim communities -- basically an act of creating a mash-up that emphasizes Christian theological principles while continuing to encourage Islamic cultural principles.

Honestly, if the origin of this is in Christian missionaries looking at Islam as a means to their own ends, that puts a much more negative spin on it for me all around. There's a history there, you know?

[umsami]

I actually just got the book--and so far, it's quite interesting. (I'm not very far into it, though.) One thing I thought was interesting is that the author talks about resurrecting (his term, not mine ) the Eastern Christ... Embracing the Semitic Face of Jesus.. and also The Bible as a Middle Eastern Book. The guy whose the topic of the book, Mazhar Mallouhi, got interested in Jesus through another guy who liked Jesus, but never became a Christian, Gandhi. As Gandhi famously said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." He also talks about how in the West, often among Christians, there is a "missing Father." People talk a lot about Jesus--but not a lot about God/the Father.

So far, it's interesting. It may take me a few weeks to get through it, as a lot is going on right now. I haven't found anything that is offensive regarding Islam, though. In many ways, I think this could cause some Christians, in learning about this "Muslim follower of Christ", to have more respect for Islam... Arabs... the Middle East, etc. I truly do believe that a lot of Christians in the States view Jesus as a blue-eyed light brown haired, light skinned individual...and forget, that he was a brown eyed (most likely), brown haired, dark skinned, Semitic Middle-Eastern man.

[Nabbe]

But if they see Isa alleihisalaam as the Son of God, they are not muslims. That is not tawheed - Monoteism, if they do...

[hrsmom]

That books sounds interesting!

[Shami]

Genifer, yes I do understand and agree with everything you said. There is much evidence in the Bible that there is a price to be paid for following the Lord. My family did persecute me when I received the Lord Jesus and began to follow Him. Of course the persecution was emotional and not a physical threat.
Individuals may come to receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and still hold onto their cultural things, but this presents a big problem in the church. The problem with holding onto your culture can cause divisions in the body of Christ. Their are verses addressing this if any one wants them. Christianity is so divided and many times it has to do with race and culture. Christ did not intend for His body to be divided. It is because people, in general, (not talking about narrow mindedness and open mindedess per se) like to hang out with people who are similiar.
Please don't misunderstand me. I love all people regardless of race and culture. However, if race and culture are going to divide me from my brother or sister in Christ, then I must drop my culture to be one with them. I said 'I' must drop MY culture to be one with my brother or sister in Christ. I didn't say that THEY had to drop their culture. I can receive any one of any culture. I will embrace them and love them. I will not insist they do things my way. I am simply pointing out that culture causes divisions among the body of Christ, which is the church.
Trying to think of an expample...
In my culture, we are taught to put the food away quickly after eating or you may get sick from the bacteria. In another culture, they aren't so worried about it and have no problem leaving food out for hours. If I hold on to 'my way' and cause arguments and division, then I have a problem with my sister in Christ. I may get offended with her and cause a problem. I have to let it go and let the food stay out without offense. In Christ, we are not allowed to remain offended and not deal with ourselves and the Lord. To do this, I need the Lord, who lives in me, to be my forebearance toward my sister. In myself, I have no forebearance, but Christ in me is full of forebearance.

Originally Posted by umsami

... As Gandhi famously said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." He also talks about how in the West, often among Christians, there is a "missing Father." People talk a lot about Jesus--but not a lot about God/the Father.

I think that one of the main reasons that Christians are seen as unChrist like is the gospel of damnation that has unfortunately been a focal point. The "your going to go to hell if you don't believe type gospel" turned me off, too. I used to tell my aunt, I don't want any part of that kind of God.
Finally, I heard that God in Christ wants to dispense Himself into your being so that He may grow in you, supply you, be your peace and rest, and finally be expressed through you. God (Jesus) wants to make His home in your heart.

So, I said okay, I'm listening now.

Kid woke up gotta go fast

[cappuccinosmom]

But if they see Isa alleihisalaam as the Son of God, they are not muslims. That is not tawheed - Monoteism, if they do...

I thought about that too. It doesn't seem to fit with Islam very well.

But...most Christians do believe there is only one God. There are two views on this, that God manifests as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at different times, or that God is one but consists of a Trinity, which are named as above. We don't believe there are three seperate gods. Only one God. The "trinity" idea is something we believe and grasp minimally, but it's not possible to fully comprehend because, well, it has to do with the nature of an almighty, eternal God.

[umsami]

Originally Posted by Nabbe

But if they see Isa alleihisalaam as the Son of God, they are not muslims. That is not tawheed - Monoteism, if they do...

For me, there's a difference between seeing Isa/Jesus as the Son of God vs. seeing him as God. It would all depend on whether they see themselves as Trinitarian or not. There was a view in Christianity, and it is still held by some (although granted a very small minority), that Jesus was the Son, but not God.

I kind of got side-tracked from reading it, as I've been sick the past few weeks. Hopefully, I'm almost better and can get back to reading it.

As far as I can tell, this guy considers himself culturally Muslim, but religiously Christian--so I don't even know if he'd use the term in the "Christianity Today" article of Messianic Muslim. The term seems to be a way to distance himself (or themselves) from the negative Crusader image/as well as all the Colonization stuff which still persists among many Middle Easterners when they think about Christians and Christianity. I don't think, for example, that a Muslim who converted to Christianity in Indonesia for example, would have the same issues--because I don't think there is the baggage regarding the Crusades, etc. there. (JMHO) Just as Islam has a PR image problem among many in the West, Christianity has a PR image problem among many in the Middle East.

[Ammaarah]

Originally Posted by umsami

For me, there's a difference between seeing Isa/Jesus as the Son of God vs. seeing him as God. It would all depend on whether they see themselves as Trinitarian or not. There was a view in Christianity, and it is still held by some (although granted a very small minority), that Jesus was the Son, but not God.

Well, I am no takfiri and I believe each person is entitled to his or her spiritual path, but again and again in the Quran, we read Allah has no son and Allah has no partners. Islamically, Jesus is not Allah's son nor part of some sort of partnership (even a partnership like the mainline Christian view of the Trinity as three in one), so I don't see how someone could be a Messianic Muslim.

That said, I think I understand how it is to feel ethnically one religion but practice and believe another. I feel ethnically Catholic (although of course RC is not an ethnicity per se) but I am Muslim. I wouldn't presume to call myself a Catholic Who Really Understands Monotheism or something like that, though.

[Bebegim]