When the kids refuse to do...anything (and narration?)

[kittywitty]

The kids and I have been needing some more structure (the kids have literally been asking for it every day) with more "work". We were unschoolers but kept going back to Waldorf. Now after re-reading all the CM books and websites I can find, I really understand it. And I'm totally for it.

However.

My kids will NOT narrate. Which was also a problem with Waldorf. They refuse to draw, color, paint, model, talk, write, anything. I try to make it informal or fun just to see if they are listening, partly. My 9 year old-if she even sniffs an air of narration in any form very vocally pronounces it evil, refuses to do it, and then the other kids will stop midsentence and follow her. Which is weird since they've never had forced narrations or anything. And they are being completely rude and interruptive during lessons. Our "lessons" are pretty informal. Like, today we started drawing lessons which they have BEGGED for for years and they just made it totally miserable.

They cry and beg for these things and then they just totally refuse to do them and just fight and bicker and make sure no one else enjoys themselves, either. (I'm talking about my 8 and 9 year olds)

I don't require anything, but I'm at the point where 90% of my free time is spent preparing things for them they beg for and ask to do and complain we're not doing and then they just.won't.do.anything. So it's a total waste of my time. But if I don't do anything, it starts the ceaseless complaing about me not doing anything.

Anyone else going through this? It's not a seasonal thing as they do this year round about anything at all. I just don't know what to do. Ds has sensory and gross motor issues and is supposed to do certain things to work on them per OT. But he refuses to do anything but fight and play nintendo and complains and throws a huge fit if anything-anything at all-is asked or expected of him.

I hate the idea of molding or training my children, but by golly so far with years of unschooling or gentle homeschooling without requirements, they are rating zeros in motivation and are probably far behind in everything but reading at this point.

Sorry about the long rant, I am just at the end of my rope. I try so hard and all I get from it lately has been complaints and downright refusal. Has anyone else gone through this? I don't know if I should buckle down and just say you are *going* to do this and expecting it. It goes against my unschooling beliefs, but on the other hand, I'm just not seeing the same motivation and learning and respect that many unschooling families talk so much about. It just isn't working for us.

[MamaMonica]

That is such a frustrating place to be (been there). It's possible they just need a different approach. My kids won't do certain things and will do the same subject with a different approach. Waldorf was not a good fit for us, though many love it.

My kids will do more traditional watercolor and acrylic painting but wouldn't do Waldorf type watercolor. They didn't want to retell or illustrate stories, but dd will read on her own and write/illustrate her own stories for hours.

Math with gnomes-- forget it. Traditonal borrowing and carrying...easy and interesting for them.

Sometimes the kids will work if they are engaged and interested. The trick is finding what engages them.

[kittywitty]

Thank you. Good to know my kids aren't the only ones who have gone through this!

The main problem is that I keep trying new methods in the hopes they'll love one and take to it. But none are working. They claim to want...more circle time, or more workbooks, etc. but then complain as soon as we do. If I keep switching methods, my head is going to start spinning!

[skueppers]

Two things I wonder about:

Have you ever tried, just as an experiment, separating the kids for lessons? Perhaps taking one child to the local library while the rest of the kids stay home with another responsible adult? Obviously, this isn't going to be practical as a full-time solution, but knowing what happens might help figure out where to go.

Also, what do the kids do when left to their own devices? Besides fight.

[moominmamma]

Evaluative intent. That's what my kids sniff out. They hate it too.

Think about it. You read them a story, or they read a story. Or they experience it. And then you ask them to narrate it back to you. Do you want to hear what they say because you're genuinely curious about what the story or experience was about? No, of course not. You're asking them to narrate it back, so it seems to them, so that you can decide how well they've learned it. You're evaluating their learning, learning that they believe should be private, internal and personally meaningful to them. To my kids it also comes across as distrustful. I tell them something or they read something, but it seems I don't believe that they've paid attention, or I don't believe they're necessarily smart enough to pick it up, so I ask them to prove it to me.

I'm not saying the purpose of the narration or assignments you give is evaluative, or that you distrust their learning. Just that if they're like my kids that's how they're perceiving it.

My own family has moved towards much more structure from a more capricious form of unschooling lately. My kids are older (the older three are 11, 13, 16) and so have been able to be very independent in their learning. I set up assignments, but they're not things that require output and parental evaluation. For instance my 11yo is working through an algebra text at 6:30 in the mornings, while I'm still in bed. She reads the text, works some problems on the whiteboard, checks her answers. Every few days I ask her if she's understanding it, if she wants any help. Mostly she's fine. Once or twice she's wanted help. I think she's starting Chapter 5. Do I know that she's mastered Chapters 1-4? No, I can't prove it. But why would an 11-year-old be studiously working through Chapter 5 by her own choice if the stuff was all Greek to her? So I assume, based on her own reports and the bits of evidence I see on occasion, that she's doing just fine.

With my 6-year-old things are a little different. She's not quite so independent. But still there's a lot that she does that doesn't have that evaluative overlay and doesn't involve output. She'll read through the chapter in her Chemistry book, and then we'll play together with the molecular model kit without any particular agenda, just having fun and chatting. Or she'll watch a history documentary. Or write out a favourite recipe in her private journal. Or work with the Flashmaster on her multiplication speed recall.

At the end of the day I don't have much to hang my hat off to say that "this is what they've learned." But we're still structuring a fair bit of learning and they're still learning, that's clear in the long run. It's learning that doesn't produce external stuff, that's all. Maybe this style is more what they're interested in?

Miranda

[briansmama]

Waldorf wasn't a good fit for ds1 either, though I absolutely loved it. I think it was a gentle way to go through his Kindy year, but he wasn't as into it as I was.

We now follow a CM/Classical ed approach, because like your dc, he needs/wants the structure. He's not into the narration either, so what I do is just ask him questions about what we just read to open up a discussion. I do the dictation as of now and put it into a notebook.

Maybe try that for a year? Get a rhythm going where morning is school time with literature-based lessons that last 10-15 min each, with you dictating their answers to your open-ended questions. Limit the video games to after lesson hours or break time (ours is after lunch). You pick the books and areas of study and read aloud to them most of the time. I do require my ds (who is 6) to read 1 short story to me so he keeps progressing with his reading. If he wants to read more he can, but we're not there yet.

I'm so grateful I learned about Waldorf simply because it taught me that the flow and rhythm of our day is so important. CM stressed habits and habit-training, which I also feel is so important, especially to education. But using the entire philosophy didn't work for us. I just took what we needed and applied it and in our situation, it has been very beneficial.

I would work on implementing a rhythm and flow to your day with the dc, and not stress over which ed philosophy. Try making a goal to read quality lit to cover 3 main areas of study and add more from there. Figure out the best rhythm for your family and the rest will fall into place.

HTH!

[theretohere]

I don't know, this kind of sounds more like a discipline problem to me. If they want and need more structure but are being difficult about it, that doesn't sound like it's the structure that needs a tweak but the attitudes involved. Just my opinion.

[briansmama]

Just want to add that Miranda's approach to learning sounds beautiful.

[jessicaSAR]

I am sorry you are so frustrated. It is truly hard to work to put together lessons and projects and be met with nothing but negativity.

If you really don't want to "train" your children, then I don't see how a CM approach makes sense. Charlotte Mason was all about habit training, and learning to narrate is complicated practice that children are slowly trained to do.

I am not at all an unschooler, and I don't see what is wrong with training children. I see that as the primary role of a parent. But, I think if you really do want them to learn the art of narration, then it will take a slow, disciplined process of teaching them to narrate. Now, if you can't teach them, then you do have a problem.

Sounds to me like you are conflicted about what you want, and that is carrying over to the children. There is no reason why you have to put up with endless complaining. You can certainly require that they complete their work cheerfully and expeditiously. But, that does require a certain amount of training and imposing discipline. There is nothing wrong with discipline, but you have to be comfortable with it or it won't work.

[kittywitty]

Thank you, everyone. So many wonderful things to think about.

Originally Posted by skueppers

Two things I wonder about:

Have you ever tried, just as an experiment, separating the kids for lessons? Perhaps taking one child to the local library while the rest of the kids stay home with another responsible adult? Obviously, this isn't going to be practical as a full-time solution, but knowing what happens might help figure out where to go.

Also, what do the kids do when left to their own devices? Besides fight.

Yes. That's what we did for a year or so. But I have an insane 2 year old hurricane child that doesn't appreciate that much. I still do separate time with them each day-like floor time. We can do book work, games, anything. But with four kids and above toddler, 30 minutes is about all I can put in without a major catastrophe.

When left to their own devices-fight, fight, run around in circles, play with toys, play nintendo...Occasionally something calm like drawing or reading. My oldest is teaching herself Greek and multiplication.

Miranda-thank you. Sometimes I just need someone to calm me down from my mini-"worst mother in the world" panics and let me see it from the other perspective. I do know they are learning. I was just hoping to jot some of it down as "proof" with my ex occasionally popping up so I have something to reference in the future, legally. That and I really do like them to narrate to me so that I know they are paying attention and my time wasn't wasted-especially when they are running around in circles or fighting while I read. Plus when they *do* give narrations they are absolutely hilarious (in a good way!).

My oldest is almost entirely independent but also the one that asks for more structure. She likes classical seeming tough work but otherwise she uses the workbox system that she fills with me with things she wants to work on the next day. She's quite motivated if we do that together and likes ticking them off the front so she knows she's making progress. My son, though...I think he literally would spend 24 hours a day playing nintendo if we let him (and we have gone months as an experiment seeing if he would limit himself!). He's the one that begs the most to do projects and then freaks out on me once we do them.

I think mostly I'm just conflicted because part of me feels like with all their begging, my money and energy and time all being used to do these things that I am somehow owed something tangible. I know it's folly, really. But it does nag at me from time to time.

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR

I am sorry you are so frustrated. It is truly hard to work to put together lessons and projects and be met with nothing but negativity.

If you really don't want to "train" your children, then I don't see how a CM approach makes sense. Charlotte Mason was all about habit training, and learning to narrate is complicated practice that children are slowly trained to do.

I am not at all an unschooler, and I don't see what is wrong with training children. I see that as the primary role of a parent. But, I think if you really do want them to learn the art of narration, then it will take a slow, disciplined process of teaching them to narrate. Now, if you can't teach them, then you do have a problem.

Sounds to me like you are conflicted about what you want, and that is carrying over to the children. There is no reason why you have to put up with endless complaining. You can certainly require that they complete their work cheerfully and expeditiously. But, that does require a certain amount of training and imposing discipline. There is nothing wrong with discipline, but you have to be comfortable with it or it won't work.

I don't have a problem with discipline! I think that came out wrong. I meant the word "training" (reminds me of training dogs) and many of the methods I've seen out there by people who claim to follow CM, in particular. A lot of smacking and almost military like expectations. In CM's writings she urges against conforming and molding children to fit our desires, but on a lot of recent books about CM I have read, this is what people recommend. I bought Laying Down the Rails so we can all work on some habit training around here-for myself especially. I know I am inconsistent at best. But then I read RU lists where things I otherwise think are good ideas, like respectful habit training are sounded off as inhumane and then I get guilty and back off and things get worse...

One part about "You can certainly require that they complete their work cheerfully and expeditiously. But, that does require a certain amount of training and imposing discipline.". How would one do that? I am uncomfortable with punishments related to education. What would a natural consequence be for that other than me just not reading them the books they've selected? CM advised against punishments and nagging, etc. in relation to narration and such from what I'm reading right now in "For the Children's Sake". So what would you do then?

[AngelBee]

I totally can relate to what you are going through! This is why we now are doing a CM/WTM lix instead of unschooling. It was becoming so unenjoyable.

I am going to think a bit more before I share any gems. We are still working through this, so I am not sure I have any good advice for you. Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone!

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by kittywitty

I don't have a problem with discipline! I think that came out wrong. I meant the word "training" (reminds me of training dogs) and many of the methods I've seen out there by people who claim to follow CM, in particular. A lot of smacking and almost military like expectations. In CM's writings she urges against conforming and molding children to fit our desires, but on a lot of recent books about CM I have read, this is what people recommend. I bought Laying Down the Rails so we can all work on some habit training around here-for myself especially. I know I am inconsistent at best. But then I read RU lists where things I otherwise think are good ideas, like respectful habit training are sounded off as inhumane and then I get guilty and back off and things get worse...

One part about "You can certainly require that they complete their work cheerfully and expeditiously. But, that does require a certain amount of training and imposing discipline.". How would one do that? I am uncomfortable with punishments related to education. What would a natural consequence be for that other than me just not reading them the books they've selected? CM advised against punishments and nagging, etc. in relation to narration and such from what I'm reading right now in "For the Children's Sake". So what would you do then?

I agree with you on some of the more militant discipline. I agree that is neither helpful nor necessary. But, I do think there are logical consequences that can work quite well.

Again, I am not an unschooler, and I do think that there are things that need to get done. I am not a believer that children will learn what they need (or at least what I consider an excellent, well rounded education) without direction and guidance. So, I have no problem with the idea that certain things need to get done, some of which the child may love and some they may not. That said, here is what we do (and my family is by no means idyllic, and my 9yo dd can roll her eyes and scowl with the best of them).

First, I don't consider the consequences as punishment related to education. The punishment (or consequence) is related to attitude and behavior, and it would apply whenever there was whining, complaining, and general negativity. I consider our family a unit, and we have to work together to function in a way that works for everyone. I am not merely teacher, cook, maid, servant and chauffeur. The children have things that they want to do and they have things that they need to do. My 9yo has a check-off list for school that she must complete before she is "free" to hang out in her room and build legos or erector sets or paint and listen to story tapes, or read a book, or whatever she wants. She also has a few small chores, and is expected to keep her room reasonably neat (this last one has been a struggle, but she is making progress). She loves ballet and takes classes three times a week. She also likes to play with her friends. And, she knows that if she uses up too much of my energy dealing with complaining or general negativity, then I will not be willing to make these other things happen for her. We all have bad days, and when she is in a bad mood, I ask her to complete her work away from the rest of us, and return when she is feeling better.

I also have a 6yo, and the same applies for her, but the consequences are slightly different and more age appropriate. I usually remove her from the room (to her room) when she is whining or complaining or misbehaving. After she has time to regroup, she typically returns happier and ready to join the family.

I do think the children feed off one another. And when you have three or four or more (I have 3), it is not fair to everyone else to accept difficult, depressing behavior, or to let one child ruin what you have planned.

I don't know if this helps at all, but we have had great success with the check-off list. My oldest dd seems to love knowing what she has to do and checking it off as she completes it. And, she is generally a happy and cooperative child. Completing her lessons has become a habit, and I rarely have to remind her to finish.

I forgot to mention that my dd found narration difficult as well. She has a fantastic listening memory, and had a hard time summarizing rather than repeating everything. And, I think she was overwhelmed by all she could remember. So, we moved away from CM narration for a while. We used Sonlight reader guides that have comprehension questions (so more directed questions) for a while, and we also used Writing With Ease, which teaches the child how to pick out the important points and summarize a passage. She has not been resistant at all with these more incremental methods of "narration" (for CM this would not technically be narration, but it has worked for us). We are gradually incorporating more CM style narration, and she is more comfortable with it now.

[elizawill]

if narration is a big issue, i would just drop it. for me, an 8 or 9 year old is big enough to pick & choose how they learn. my daughter doesn't get a say-so in what subjects we need to cover, but i do include her in the process of how we learn them. if your daughter's attitude is difficult about everything you all do, well... that's not cool & needs to be addressed. but if their attitude mostly flares up with very specific issues (i.e. narration) then i would simply drop it, ykwim?

[kittywitty]

Thanks, everyone. I think part of it was the subject. They had been asking for the book, but I think it was a bit too archaic for them. We just read some of Story of the Greeks and without prompt they talked about it and I was able to relate it to the Percy Jackson series they love and they talked up a storm. So we have made some progress already.