Fat Vs Carbs - Page 2

[savithny]

I've read Marks Daily Apple, and also some of the experiences of people who go lower-carb or "more primal" than he does. It's interesting, because some of those people, after weeks or months on even zero carbs, begin gaining weight, or being seeing their blood sugar do unexpected things.

The thing to remember is that human beings are actually incredibly adaptable, dietarily. As we spread out around the world we occupied thousands of ecological niches, each with very different nutrients available, and every place human groups thrived, they did it by building a diet that their bodies could use out of what was available. These "natural" diets could vary widely in their protein/carb/fat makeup, because over time, digestive processes will adjust to very different diets. There were Native American groups that had dietary taboos against fatty fish and fatty cuts of meat because their systems couldn't handle it after months of lean bison and fruits, while their neighbors 100 miles away gorged on salmon fat for weeks at a time.

Long story short, its highly possible that as your body gets used to a certain proportion of nutrients, if it feels the need to gain weight (for hormonal reasons, among others), it will change how it processes what you are eating in order to put away fat and increase your body fat percentage to the level your body is seeking, and it will do this whatever the proportion of carb/fat/protein you take in.

[jplain]

Originally Posted by savithny

It's interesting, because some of those people, after weeks or months on even zero carbs, begin gaining weight, or being seeing their blood sugar do unexpected things.

Hmmm...I've not seen the posts you're referring to, but it seems to be the consensus that nuts and/or dairy are often the culprit when there's unexpected weight gain. Both provide a form of dense, easily-consumed calories. It is easy to overshoot caloric needs if one becomes casual about dairy and nuts.

Regarding blood sugar, yes, on VLC it may do some things that are at first glance unexpected. Further investigation should reveal the cause.

A VLC or ZC diabetic may find that they have to shift more of their calories from protein to fat. If dietary protein exceeds your body's immediate needs, some of it will be converted to glucose. This can raise blood sugar levels significantly, though the rise is slower than with carbohydrates.

A VLC non-diabetic might find that relatively low carb loads (ie. 10-50 grams of carb in one meal) can cause unexpectedly high blood sugars. I'll expand on this, because there are (at least) two causes.

First, your pancreas is a creature of habit. It has a "memory" of how much insulin was needed to handle the last several meals you ate. If you eat a meal with significantly more carb than usual, your insulin response will be inadequate, and your blood sugars will peak higher than you'd expect for that carb load.

This is one reason that low-carb eaters should avoid the glucose tolerance test. If it must be taken, you should carb-load for at least 3-5 days beforehand, so that your pancreas gets the message that it needs to be prepared to handle large carb loads.

Second, you can become what's called physiologically or peripherally insulin resistant. This is different from pathological insulin resistance, which can lead to type II diabetes. Physiological/peripheral insulin resistance, on the other hand, is a healthy and normal response to a low carb diet.

Remember that your muscles can function on either glucose or fatty acids, but your brain and red blood cells need a minimum amount of glucose per day to continue functioning. So when you become low-carb adapted, your body knows that it needs to save the relatively scarce blood glucose for your RBCs and brain. So your muscles become resistant to insulin, and it takes higher levels of glucose and insulin to stimulate your muscle cells to take up glucose.

One could argue that for a non-diabetic, a higher carb diet will do a better job of keeping blood sugars within normal range when meals contain widely varying carb counts. And that is probably true. However, and this is a big however, that higher carb diet has a price: much higher insulin levels. Why is high insulin a problem? First, it puts unnecessary stress on your pancreas. You've only got one pancreas, so treat it gently! Second, high insulin appears to cause significant negative health effects independent of blood sugar level. Keeping insulin (and blood sugar) low helps to keep you healthy long term.

In my opinion, the realities of "pancreas memory" and physiological insulin resistance mean that low-carb eaters need to be aware of the consequences when they choose to "cheat." It might make sense to schedule cheat meals for lunch only, so that your body has time to bring down your blood sugar before bedtime. Or it might make sense to schedule physical activity after a cheat meal, because exercise will trigger muscle uptake of glucose and help bring down blood sugar. Or maybe you'll decide those cheat meals just aren't worth it.

[TonyaW]

Well, I am the OP and confused as ever. I am not sure what to do. When I was thinking about it, I greatly overstated my calories when I was eating higher fat. I think I thought I was eating that many, but remember now that I was surprised that fit day said I was eating maybe 1500. I feel like I over eat, but I also feel hungry often or a great desire to eat something. I wish I knew why and could make the best decision for my health and body. I eat a lot of fat, but guess what my homocysteine levels were excellent and so was my blood pressure. I am confused why some people on here disagree with the fat thing since that is the premise of TF eating and at least of WAP.

It looks like I may be dealing with Lupus though, so I wonder how that affects my weight. I am tired a whole lot, so I probably don't expend as many calories as I should. But then again I see a lot of people on here saying calories don't really matter but that carbs do.

Honestly, the skinniest I ever was was when I ate SAD. Now I know my body is healthier at this time, but I am mad to be so overweight and eating well. And it really makes me mad when I see others eating a SAD diet and skinny. Though I really do believe in eating the way I do, with a proper balance that I cannot seem to find, because I feel healthier now than before.

Thanks for the input ya'll.

[FairyRae]

Tonya, could you share w/ us what a sample day of eating looks like for you? What you eat at each meal and for snacks? That might help others give more helpful ideas/advice for your situation...

I do think that calories count, no matter what, but that the kind of calories matter as well... Check out these detailed notes to Good Calories, Bad Calories here if you want to learn more a/bit (w/out buying the book. )

[jplain]

I'm not seeing the link Lauren meant to include, so here it is: Good Calories Bad Calories summarized in point form!

[FairyRae]

LOL! Thanks jplain--totally forgot to include it!

[TonyaW]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

Tonya, could you share w/ us what a sample day of eating looks like for you? What you eat at each meal and for snacks? That might help others give more helpful ideas/advice for your situation...

I do think that calories count, no matter what, but that the kind of calories matter as well... Check out these detailed notes to Good Calories, Bad Calories here if you want to learn more a/bit (w/out buying the book. )

Yes.

Well, when I was doing the higher fat diet with no grain, I had a daily morning smoothie with whole fat raw milk, banana, raw egg, may have included flax seeds or nut butter in place of egg, maybe coconut oil or cream.

Lunch was usually sausage or bacon and eggs, possibly fruit or an egg scramble that included spinach, onions, garlic, summer squash/zucchini sometimes cheese.

Snacks would have been cheese or nuts, maybe some fruit like apple or berries or yogurt.

Dinner was always meat, veggies, and sometimes potato with lots of butter or just two low glycemic veggies with lots of fat.

My diet now looks like this. I am not suppose to dairy anymore.

I have been having coffee though trying to avoid it more, that usually includes cream and honey.

Deviled egg, or a pancake made from flax seed banana, almonds, spinach and egg, and/or sometimes a some bacon and sprouted grain bread with butter.

Lunches are now eggs and meat, or meat and sprouted grain bread, or a salad with roast beef or salmon or chicken with dressing like olive oil and mustard or honey mustard (all homemade) and sunflower seeds. Sometimes an egg scramble with potatoes, bacon fat, onions, and spinach.
Sometimes fruit usually berries or apple. Sometimes a roast beef sandwhich.

Snacks are usually nuts (btw soaked and dehydrated nuts), carrot sticks, or nothing. If I get hungry which I usually do I eat something I have in the fridge already prepared like nuts or meat. Fruit sometimes with nut butter. Sometimes Dagoba dark chocolate.

Dinner is always meat, low glycemic veggie or salad and either potato, sweet potato w/ lots of fat, or maybe soaked rice.

Snack is now often some sprouted grain bread with meat in evenings before bed or a homemade custard with coconut milk. I use to have a hot cocoa often but not anymore.

I would be remiss to say I don't have some of my husbands junk food too, not everyday. I do occasionally eat his sweet treats like cookies or oatmeal bars. We eat out maybe once a week.

[TonyaW]

[QUOTE=TonyaW;14969867]Yes.

Well, when I was doing the higher fat diet with no grain, I had a daily morning smoothie with whole fat raw milk, banana, raw egg, may have included flax seeds or nut butter in place of egg, maybe coconut oil or cream.

Lunch was usually sausage or bacon and eggs, possibly fruit or an egg scramble that included spinach, onions, garlic, summer squash/zucchini sometimes cheese.

Snacks would have been cheese or nuts, maybe some fruit like apple or berries or yogurt.

Dinner was always meat, veggies, and sometimes potato with lots of butter or just two low glycemic veggies with lots of fat.

My diet now looks like this. I am not suppose to dairy anymore.

I have been having coffee though trying to avoid it more, that usually includes cream and honey.

Deviled egg, or a pancake made from flax seed banana, almonds, spinach and egg, and/or sometimes a some bacon and sprouted grain bread with butter.

Lunches are now eggs and meat, or meat and sprouted grain bread, or a salad with roast beef or salmon or chicken with dressing like olive oil and mustard or honey mustard (all homemade) and sunflower seeds. Sometimes an egg scramble with potatoes, bacon fat, onions, and spinach.
Sometimes fruit usually berries or apple. Sometimes a roast beef sandwhich.

Snacks are usually nuts (btw soaked and dehydrated nuts), carrot sticks, or nothing. If I get hungry which I usually do I eat something I have in the fridge already prepared like nuts or meat. Fruit sometimes with nut butter. Sometimes Dagoba dark chocolate.

Dinner is always meat, low glycemic veggie or salad and either potato, sweet potato w/ lots of fat, or maybe soaked rice.

Snack is now often some sprouted grain bread with meat in evenings before bed or a homemade custard with coconut milk. I use to have a hot cocoa often but not anymore.

I would be remiss to say I don't have some of my husbands junk food too, not everyday. I do occasionally eat his sweet treats like cookies or oatmeal bars. We eat out maybe once a week.

[tanyalynn]

Since lupus is an inflammatory illness, I'd look to what works for reducing the symptoms in you (in a supportive way rather than a suppressive way) and go from there.

This year I've been taking pills that have caused digestive stress and inflammation, and whoa my weight has gone up.

[FairyRae]

Tonya, your meals sounded yummy to me, and your grain-free diet sounds a lot like mine (although I'm dairy free). Things that can really pack on pounds, IME, when you are grain free are nuts and seeds. Eating more than 1/4 cup a day (or even less if you need to lose weight) causes me to gain weight. (I will look at my nut intake before cutting fruit personally.) There are sooo calorically (and nutrient) dense, and because of their crunchy-snacky qualities, I think it's really easy to over-indulge on them. Anytime I've started gaining weight while grain free I look at my nut intake and usually that is where it's coming from.

It sounds like you are working on some healing stuff--I don't know enough about Lupus to recommend anything really. I think finding what works *for you* is most important, and if you *feel* better w/ grains, then keep them in. (Of course, sprouting/soaking etc, as you are currently doing.) I know I feel better w/out them, but that is what works for me.

Oh, and I use coconut milk to replace dairy in many many ways--it makes amazing mashed potatoes! And have you tried using ghee at all? Some folks who don't tolerate it can tolerate (lactose/casein free) ghee. We do, and I'm very grateful for it!

[TonyaW]

Originally Posted by FairyRae

Tonya, your meals sounded yummy to me, and your grain-free diet sounds a lot like mine (although I'm dairy free). Things that can really pack on pounds, IME, when you are grain free are nuts and seeds. Eating more than 1/4 cup a day (or even less if you need to lose weight) causes me to gain weight. (I will look at my nut intake before cutting fruit personally.) There are sooo calorically (and nutrient) dense, and because of their crunchy-snacky qualities, I think it's really easy to over-indulge on them. Anytime I've started gaining weight while grain free I look at my nut intake and usually that is where it's coming from.

It sounds like you are working on some healing stuff--I don't know enough about Lupus to recommend anything really. I think finding what works *for you* is most important, and if you *feel* better w/ grains, then keep them in. (Of course, sprouting/soaking etc, as you are currently doing.) I know I feel better w/out them, but that is what works for me.

Oh, and I use coconut milk to replace dairy in many many ways--it makes amazing mashed potatoes! And have you tried using ghee at all? Some folks who don't tolerate it can tolerate (lactose/casein free) ghee. We do, and I'm very grateful for it!

MMMmmm, would you please share how you make your mashed potatoes. Do you make any smoothies with coconut milk. I am missing my smoothies. I was trying to make smoothies with nut milk, but perhaps I should look at cutting that way back like you said.

[FairyRae]

Mashed potatoes--soooo easy. Just boil potatoes, add some full fat coconut milk (get some chunks of coconut cream in there--the thick stuff), mash together and just add salt/pepper to taste. You can add garlic/garlic powder as well. I find the salt/pepper actually takes away some of the coconutty taste (dh who is not a coconut fan is fine w/ these.) The coconut milk is a great sub for the combined milk and butter in traditional mashed potatoes. You can also make mashed cauliflower using a similar method, same ingredients, just subbing cauli for the potatoes. I don't measure, just do it by taste/feel.

You also can totally do coconut milk smoothies. Sometimes I'll water down my coconut milk (it is sooo thick) and add some berries, greens, etc. I love stevia, and think it goes great in a drink if you feel the need for more sweetness. (I've been experimenting w/ giving up honey for a while and have found stevia has been fine where I need it...) Nourishing gourmet has a coconut milk tonic recipe I like to use at the base of my smoothies sometimes as well--I totally recommend it! (Google it--I'm on the run!)

[Marsupialmom]

You might want to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM