or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Women's Health  › Dental › Questioning merits of Orthodontia. Please weigh in!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Questioning merits of Orthodontia. Please weigh in! - Page 3

post #41 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novella View Post
Thank you Everyone for all the continued responses. I'm not sure I'm any closer to a satisfying decision just yet, but there has been lots of good information. It's nice to be on a board with so many thoughtfully-spoken and well-read individuals.

Off to the city next Monday for one version of "the correct path". We are taking both girls for an orthodontic consult.
I'm also over the fence regarding orthodontics since I truly believe nutrition has a lot to do with proper facial structure but an issue that's often ignored and I believe is highly critical is heavy metal poisoning, particularly Hg, since it causes deranged mineral transport, particularly Mg, Ca, Se and other highly important nutrients that get used up too such as Vit C, B complex, etc. I'm doing chelation using Cutler and I'm also considering orthotropics or ALF and myofunctional theraphy for DD (age 9). I know I'll never go a conventional route (no headgears or conventional palate expanders) since I truly believe (also from personal experience) it's not always effective.
post #42 of 67
Great recent article on 'From Attention Deficit to Sleep Apnea: The Serious Consequences of Dental Deformities'... mentions the British Twin study about the differences of braces vs. palate expanders:
http://www.westonaprice.org/From-Att...eep-Apnea.html

Bigger pics on British twin study, they say it all:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co...ilization.html

I am also currently looking into the ALF Lightwire as an alternative to a conventional palate expander, there are some good links on this page:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/raw-wes...ormities/?wap2
post #43 of 67
Dr. Hang's writings are very interesting!
http://facefocused.com/cranioguest.html
post #44 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS View Post
Great recent article on 'From Attention Deficit to Sleep Apnea: The Serious Consequences of Dental Deformities'... mentions the British Twin study about the differences of braces vs. palate expanders:
http://www.westonaprice.org/From-Att...eep-Apnea.html

Bigger pics on British twin study, they say it all:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co...ilization.html

I am also currently looking into the ALF Lightwire as an alternative to a conventional palate expander, there are some good links on this page:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/raw-wes...ormities/?wap2
Thanks for inviting me here from the thread about the spacing of my son's teeth.

I was just going to post the British twin study, which I just read last night. It's very powerful and definitely makes me think about looking into extenders for my son. The difference is amazing! (And I feel so bad for the sister who had her teeth pulled.)
post #45 of 67
I was just reading those articles the other day. I had braces as a kid, but mine was a pretty mild issue. I didn't have crowding but rather just one tooth that was kind of crocked and extra space, so no teeth pulled. Seeing this it really pushes to me that if it is needed I do not want to do the traditional route!

My question is for those who have done nutritional intervention how long until you give up? Did you have a nat. dentist examine and tell you there wasn't enough room? Can they do that w/ xrays? Ds has pretty fair spacing in my opinion, but I am no expert. Dd1 however doesn't and I am just starting w/ the more intensive nutrition intervention for her, is there time to fix it?
post #46 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by avent View Post
(And I feel so bad for the sister who had her teeth pulled.)
Me too!
post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mama View Post
My question is for those who have done nutritional intervention how long until you give up? Did you have a nat. dentist examine and tell you there wasn't enough room? Can they do that w/ xrays? Ds has pretty fair spacing in my opinion, but I am no expert. Dd1 however doesn't and I am just starting w/ the more intensive nutrition intervention for her, is there time to fix it?
My son is going in for complete 360 of xrays (with a thyroid collar in addition to lead blanket) and other measurements to determine this at his ortho consult at our WAPF supporting dental practice in March. I was told that you want to start looking at the teeth spacing to determine intervention or not when the 6 year molars are in.

We definately saw some positive movement from age 2 to age 6 (did I post the link to our pics above?) with WAPF nutrition. I don't think giving your children the cholesterol, minerals and fat soluble vitamins to enable their optimal growth is ever a waste, since the issue goes well beyond just straight teeth. The point that these articles are making is that the teeth/palate is connected to so many other processes in the body... an indication of overall health and growth of the body as a whole.

Who knows what else you are effecting down the road by what is eaten. Or not! I don't see ever giving up striving to give my child the diet he is meant to be eating to serve his body well.

That's probably not exactly what you meant though...! Sorry I'm on a rant today due to some friends again telling me how restrictive I am by not "letting" my son eat processed junk. Not that he can eat most processed foods anyways due to nut, sesame and wheat allergies, but that's a whole 'nother story.

So.... rant over.

We are doing both nutrition and intervention in tandem. With the hope that he will need minimal amounts of intervention and the right kind of intervention designed to expand his palate the way nature intended to provide him with naturally straight teeth, wide facial and cranial bones, good breathing, good posture and enough room for the important hormone glands and brain stem at the base of his head.

As I said, I have already seen nutrition work for DS very well the past several years in filling out his teeth spacing and rebuilding a weak chin. I have also seen the opposite happen in at least a dozen children of friends and family members I have observed from close contact over the years. They eat a Standard American Diet... and the childrens' teeth got more crowded as they grew and chins got more pointed and receded.
post #48 of 67
I had braces 3 times, too many x-rays and my teeth were never that bad in the first place. I would have to stay in a permanent retainer the rest of my life to retain the correction, and I refuse!

I think I wound up with 'suburb teeth' and I think 'country teeth' (pretty good but slightly imperfect) are a million times hotter. My son would really have to look like something out of goonies for me to put braces on him. I think the ability of ortho to affect permanent change not requiring lifetime use of BPA retainers is waaaaaaay oversold!
post #49 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS View Post

As I said, I have already seen nutrition work for DS very well the past several years in filling out his teeth spacing and rebuilding a weak chin. I have also seen the opposite happen in at least a dozen children of friends and family members I have observed from close contact over the years. They eat a Standard American Diet... and the childrens' teeth got more crowded as they grew and chins got more pointed and receded.
I don't think most people in this country are aware of how diet affects facial structure or how facial structure can affect overall health (breathing, sleep apnea, etc.). I know that before I came to MDC I just assumed that facial shape was a product of genetics alone.

On a side note, I have been really studying (my DH says staring!) other people's faces. It is astounding, when you really look for it, how so many people have long, narrow faces and crowded teeth. I have been wondering how we, as a society, judge beauty. So many times in the writings of Dr. Price he mentions the full, round face as being beautiful. The twin study posted earlier describes the twin with the round face as being beautiful and the one with the narrow face as looking like an old woman. I think society's perception of what is beautiful is starting to take into account that so many people have narrow faces these days. I was looking at the headshots of the Miss America contestants from a few weeks ago and noticed that so many of them had long, narrow faces with pointed chins and very small mouths.

http://www.missamerica.org/competiti...ntestants.aspx

I really do have to stop staring at people, though. DH says it is a bit creepy.
post #50 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS View Post
My son is going in for complete 360 of xrays (with a thyroid collar in addition to lead blanket) and other measurements to determine this at his ortho consult at our WAPF supporting dental practice in March. I was told that you want to start looking at the teeth spacing to determine intervention or not when the 6 year molars are in.

We definitely saw some positive movement from age 2 to age 6 (did I post the link to our pics above?) with WAPF nutrition. I don't think giving your children the cholesterol, minerals and fat soluble vitamins to enable their optimal growth is ever a waste, since the issue goes well beyond just straight teeth. The point that these articles are making is that the teeth/palate is connected to so many other processes in the body... an indication of overall health and growth of the body as a whole.

Who knows what else you are effecting down the road by what is eaten. Or not! I don't see ever giving up striving to give my child the diet he is meant to be eating to serve his body well.

That's probably not exactly what you meant though...! Sorry I'm on a rant today due to some friends again telling me how restrictive I am by not "letting" my son eat processed junk. Not that he can eat most processed foods anyways due to nut, sesame and wheat allergies, but that's a whole 'nother story.

So.... rant over.

We are doing both nutrition and intervention in tandem. With the hope that he will need minimal amounts of intervention and the right kind of intervention designed to expand his palate the way nature intended to provide him with naturally straight teeth, wide facial and cranial bones, good breathing, good posture and enough room for the important hormone glands and brain stem at the base of his head.

As I said, I have already seen nutrition work for DS very well the past several years in filling out his teeth spacing and rebuilding a weak chin. I have also seen the opposite happen in at least a dozen children of friends and family members I have observed from close contact over the years. They eat a Standard American Diet... and the childrens' teeth got more crowded as they grew and chins got more pointed and receded.
That is exactly the answer I was looking for, thank you. I agree good nutrition is always a positive. I just wasn't sure how much to hope for though. I have noticed some positive improvement w/ ds in the past, his bottom 2 teeth pointed in a bit ,but straightened up after the inclusion of clo. Regardless of how it turns out I see the close teeth for dd1 and cavity for ds as an indication that something is out of whack and I will do my best to improve that, but it is nice to know that there are alternatives that work and are safer. I just have to find a WAPF friendly dentist!

Not to say that we are new to the WAPF, but I had gotten lax w/ the fCLO and hadn't included butter oil due to intolerances (I feel they can tolerate it now though-hopefully I am right!). Also, I had let them eat more things like dates and such and been lazy about the bone broths, especially lately. We are also adding do cell salts and I have added extra D3(which as a bonus has meant kids that are sleeping better as well).
post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama1803 View Post
Miss Alaska has a pretty good bone structure. I wonder if, given her home state, she ate a more natural diet than most of the others.
post #52 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS View Post
Great nutrition:

Eric Dane and Terry O'Quinn - tall men but had adequate nutrition to build a wide face, strong jaw, wide palate, flat ears... wonder what they ate growing up!
http://image3.examiner.com/images/bl...ric-dane-1.jpg

Josh Holloway too http://z.about.com/d/lost/1/0/K/1/-/...081506-517.jpg
I was subbing to read later, but I got distracted here.
Oh mcsteamy and Sawyer. Great pics!
post #53 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by avent View Post
Miss Alaska has a pretty good bone structure. I wonder if, given her home state, she ate a more natural diet than most of the others.
Like mama1803, I admit I have to stare sometimes too when I see a particularly nutritionally deficient face! It's especially distracting when I see kids while volunteering at my son's school b/c now is the age their adult teeth are coming in. I really wish I could come up with a way to communicate this to parents without them only hearing something that sounds as blunt as, "Your child has a facial deformity brought on by lack of nutrition!" and just immediately turning off.

I really think the world would change if parents knew what they chose to put in their child's mouths affected them in such a way.

But yes, Miss Alabama only has minimal signs of deficiency given the top half of her face looks wide like it grew to genetic potential. If it were not, and the top half matched her narrowed palate and pointed chin that were obviously affected by deficiencies, her looks would not be as attractive. Also her facial symmetry is off, which interestingly enough is lack of vitamin A:

Vitamin A for Fetal Development
http://www.westonaprice.org/Vitamin-...velopment.html
post #54 of 67
For the fat-soluble vitamin nutrients that are needed in order to prevent physical deformities....Vitamins A, D3, and K1....do they have to come from animal products, or can you get all of those nutrients from non-animal products, like vegetables or from the sun? If they are only found in animal products, are they only found in the fat of the animal, or can you get them from the muscle meats too?
post #55 of 67
I, too, am currently obsessed with faces, small, receding chins...DH thinks it is because I've been around a number of racially mixed people lately (who have better genetic mixing and therefore better facial structure). His conclusion is that white people have always looked like that, but that I'm just noticing it now. My sister tells me that ALL children have small receding chins, but I'm not so sure! (I haven't shared the specific nutritional deficits that result in weak chins and facial structures, just that I think they look nutritionally deficient.) It's interesting to look at the olympic athletes from all over the world, who SHOULD be in peak physical status, including nutrition, but many of whom look like they have weak facial structures.

I also wonder how much of it is regional - I see a LOT of weak chins around here, but traveling, not as much.

I'm now obsessed with faces and chins in the way I was obsessed with observing the flat backs of babies' heads when I was carrying my son in arms, and everyone was carrying their children in buckets and putting them obsessively on their backs.

Thanks for the thread.
post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereseReich View Post
For the fat-soluble vitamin nutrients that are needed in order to prevent physical deformities....Vitamins A, D3, and K1....do they have to come from animal products, or can you get all of those nutrients from non-animal products, like vegetables or from the sun? If they are only found in animal products, are they only found in the fat of the animal, or can you get them from the muscle meats too?
It's vitamin K2 not K1. K2 is from animal products and is the basis of Dr. Price's study on what he termed "The X Factor". K1 can be gotten from greens but it is not as active in the body.

Yes, you can make D3 from the sun. But only certain times of the year the higher north you live away from equator. And only without sunscreen, and in the middle of the day, and in a skimpy bathing suit. Studies have shown that even half the adults in Hawaii can be low in D. Eskimos traditionally ate lots of seal oil which was very high in vitamin D. Since I live in Massachusetts, we supplement our D in addition to using high D foods because I have found that I still couldn't keep our blood levels in the best range.

So, to answer your main question: Nope.

This is the big, not currently "politically correct" secret... traditional diets contained lots of animal fat. That is the basis of a healthy human diet.

Many traditional societies ate just the animal fat and organ meats and threw away the muscle meat! We, as modern human animals, have become very separated from craving the healthiest foods for our body. Muscle meat is very low in fat soluble vitamins.

Fatty fish, especially shellfish, are high though. Shellfish: oysters, clams, shrimp, lobster and especially fish eggs (caviar) are very high in the fat soluble nutrients, they are like organ meats. Pastured egg yolks and grass fed butter and cream are too, much more acceptable to our modern palates. But they must be eaten in high amounts ... not the paltry "eat a few eggs a week, choose lowfat dairy" in today's corporate-driven dietary recommendations who offer up low vitamin eggs and dairy produced from factory farmed, grain fed, sun starved, poor-in-health animals.

How you raise an animal directly effects the nutrient content of what issues from them. If a cow eats grass, the chlorophyll in the grass is changed to vitamin A and K2 in their milk fat. Ditto if they are in the sun, their blood levels of D are higher, and there is more D in their milk. If chickens are pastured, the greens and bugs they eat mean more A, D, and K2 and omega 3 fatty acids in their egg yolks.

Dr. Price travelled the world and tried to find healthy tribes eating vegan but could not. He wrote that he really wanted to and specifically tried to do so. Every society that was vegan was not healthy because they couldn't obtain the fat soluble vitamins in abundance that is the key to utiliizing mineral intake. Even the currently popular "The China Study" that supposedly touts the superiority of a mostly veg*n diet was wrong... traditional Okinawans ate tons of lard (high in vitamin D) from the pigs they raise, a fact just simply ignored by the author.

See "Vegetarian Tour"
http://www.westonaprice.org/Vegetarian-Tour.html
post #57 of 67
I have a French family in my life. The mom is a WAPF supporter. Her oldest daughter was showing signs of teeth crowding. So, on top of the nutritional pieces being talked about above, she has her daughter use a palate expander that I've never heard of. She puts it in her mouth twice a day. She bites on it, which causes an expansion. It stays in her mouth for 3 minutes. My friend has said that she has seen a significant improvement in the past couple of years.

I worry about spacing for my boys. We have mercury issues and i know that even though I am trying my best, my boys are still having spacing issues. My youngest has a noticable, but not extreme, tongue tie and his bottom front teeth are pointed inward. He is 3.5 and it hasn't changed yet. We will be using CST with him soon and I hope it will help. I don't know if I need to get him clipped though for it to work.
post #58 of 67
Lots of excellent info; thanks! I had never considered nutrition in facial development.

Myself, I had no orthodontic experiences until I was dealing with major jaw and neck pain. Both my sister and I ended up getting braces in our late teens to try to address the poor bite issues and constant pain. I believe I was 16 when I got my braces, and I was dedicated to getting the work done as quickly as possible. So, I'd load up on rubber bands (they didn't bother me), use the expander as much as possible, etc. A year and a half later, I got them off, just before my wedding.

I wore my retainers for YEARS after that. My DH threw it away on a road trip, or I might still be wearing it. Now, after three kids, I definitely have more misalignment than I did. In fact, the bite problems I *now* have a starting to bug me. I do have ALL of my teeth (including wisdom teeth), and am loathe to have any removed even though there's a bit of crowding now (again, perhaps influenced by the wisdom teeth, too).

Anyway, I will absolutely be looking into other options for my children if they do show a need for braces, but, for me, there really was a vast improvement in my everyday life after having some of those issues corrected. We would never have gone in if it were only for cosmetic purposes, as there just wasn't money for it.
post #59 of 67


Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWithin View Post

I have a French family in my life. The mom is a WAPF supporter. Her oldest daughter was showing signs of teeth crowding. So, on top of the nutritional pieces being talked about above, she has her daughter use a palate expander that I've never heard of. She puts it in her mouth twice a day. She bites on it, which causes an expansion. It stays in her mouth for 3 minutes. My friend has said that she has seen a significant improvement in the past couple of years.
 

 

 

I wonder if this is the device you are talking about:

 

http://www.teethperfect.com/index.html

post #60 of 67

I've posted this before, but we've used CST in combination with nutrition with excellent success for my ds.  I started when he was an infant, 8 years ago.  It completely changed his palate and his teeth.  He had significant crowding as well as a crossbite and underbite.  The teeth are no longer crowded (even with adult teeth in) and we are almost 100% of the way to no crossbite/underbite.  It's a huge change.  I would say most of this is due to CST, but that proper nutrition was a necessary support.

 

I also started treatment a few years ago and there was a significant shift in my palate, and subsequently, my bite.  I have straight teeth, but I did have endocrine issues that caused us to look at the structure of my palate.  While I have no doubt that it would have been more effective had we started earlier, I can tell you that even in adulthood there can be changes.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Dental
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Women's Health  › Dental › Questioning merits of Orthodontia. Please weigh in!