Bifidobacteria, yeast, and allergies/intolerances

[mamafish9]

OK, spinning off a thread from chat, pasting some of the contents here and my initial comments.

--------------------------

Originally Posted by mamafish9

So, I started the yeast protocol for DS, and then a yesterday I added a strong probiotic (ultimate flora critical care - I split up the packet between him, me, and DD). DD and I aren't experiencing any significant effects, but DS is spiking a fever 1-2 hours after taking it (and it lasts 10-12 hours). I know fever can be a symptom of yeast die off, and other than that, he wants to nurse more, and sleep more, but doesn't seem to be feeling too bad. I'm very curious about the fever though - the regular yeast stuff I was doing never spiked a fever, nor does kefir. So are we just getting more die off from the stronger probiotic, or is something different happening (viral/bacteria die off, possibly???). I think I'll keep going for a few days unless it seems to get worse, but I really would like a magic window into his gut to figure out what's going on in there! Clearly in this case, lab made probiotics are doing something for DS the food probiotics weren't.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I'm using Ultimate Flora Critical Care probiotic...

Based on what I've just read tonight, I'm thinking the difference is that it is very high in bifidobacteria (which are predominant in the low intestine), where kefir is more the lactobacillus strains that hang out in the small intestine. So kefir would really help with digestion (most of which happens in the small intestine). But bifidobacteria really help with colon health (e.g. good poops!). If you're low in bifidobacteria, then clostridia strains can settle in instead - and those are the ones that produce ammonia. And stimming, hyper spells, and apparently sound sensitivity too!, are all typical ASD reactions to too much ammonia. And the other side effect (besides fever) of the yeast treatment and probiotics is that on a bowel tolerance dose of mag, he stops pooping (so guessing this is another die off effect for him).

The question for me would be how did DS end up with low bifidobacteria and high clostridia? He's never had antibiotics, which is the usual cause. Breastmilk is supposed to be high in bifidobacteria - anyone know how it gets in there? Maybe I don't have enough...

Just what I need, a whole new area of biology/chemistry to understand

ETA: Shannon/JR, I think you've both talked about butyrates before? Apparently bifido bacteria produce butyrates to help shut down excess ammonia. Besides colonizing better bacteria, are there other ways to support butyrate production?

Originally Posted by mamafish9

So, bifidobacteria...

Our kids get their gut bifidobacteria populated at least in part through breastmilk. And bifido content in our breastmilk can vary substantially. I thought this abstract was interesting - it suggests mamas with allergies have lower bifido contents in their bm (like on average, only about 30% as much as non-allergic moms)...

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...99899/abstract

I'm not allergic, and maybe still low in bifidobacteria, so other things must make for low bifido counts too. But bifidobacteria hang out in the large intestine and apparently play a big role in gut permeability (e.g. leaky gut!), and development of allergies, amongst other things.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Given what I'm reading, his issue may be clostridia instead of yeast (most ASD folks don't differentiate much, but they're different gut bad guys - clostridia are bacteria, not yeast). He handles ammonia pretty well (prefers a high protein diet), so I'm guessing it's only the stresses of chelation that run down his ability to handle ammonia and so we get symptoms (and even now, they seem minor compared to how big a response we're getting to the probiotic).

I'll try to spin off a thread later if I have half a brain. Second night in a row DS has schmucked sleep too, sigh... (Why is that always his response to anything!!).

Apparently excess ammonia increases serotonin turnover, which can really mess up sleep (I'm to tired to understand why!). Hopefully this is excess ammonia the bad bugs are producing as they die... right??

Originally Posted by momofmine

Gut bacteria...this is the topic I have been researching for years and years, literally 10 years, and still am not sure what's right. When we were on SCD years ago, the author, Elaine Gottschall, promoted the use of ONLY acidophilus supplements, after her years of research finding out that bifido bacteria can actually overgrow in the large (I think) intestine, and people with intestinal issues are especially vulnerable to this. I think another argument for it was that, bifido is the predominant bacteria in infants, but as we grow older, it is not predominant.

Based on what I've read, I'd have to tentatively disagree with this. For digestion, yes - lactobactillus strains in the small intestine are key. But something needs to populate the large intestine - and if it's not bifido, you get clostridia or yeast filling the gap. I did read that bifido gets lower as you age - but that may not be a good thing!!

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Based on what I've read, I'd have to tentatively disagree with this. For digestion, yes - lactobactillus strains in the small intestine are key. But something needs to populate the large intestine - and if it's not bifido, you get clostridia or yeast filling the gap. I did read that bifido gets lower as you age - but that may not be a good thing!!

Well, yes, as I said, I am still undecided on it. I think the thing to clarify though is that, the reason why the SCD recommends to stay away from bifidus as a supplement is that it is a strain that can have a likelihood to overgrow, especially in vulnerable people. Whereas L. acidophilus, S. thermophilis, L. bulgaricus, and L. caseii are just not as likely to overgrow. Bifidus can though, and has caused problems for people. So, again, that doesn't mean that it's bad, or that no one should take it. Just a matter of balance again. So for someone who is particularly dealing with an imbalance of the right kinds of bacteria, it is kind of a catch 22. Yes, you need some bifidus, but you don't want it to overgrow, but if you have a lack of it then other bad bugs can move in also.

[momofmine]

This page has some info about bifidus and the thought process behind having some doubts about it.

[Theloose]

I've been wanting this thread for the past month or so, but haven't had the brain power or time to start it!

On butyrate:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co...roller-of.html
there's also some in the GFCFNN yahoo group. In short, resistant starch, especially soluble fiber and polysaccharides that make it to the large intestine get converted to butyrate, and that butyrate is supposed to solve a whole host of issues. It's the preferred food for the large intestine, and it decreases inflammation, stabilizes blood sugar levels and increases energy (at least those are the ones I need help with). I don't know which good/bad bacteria specifically make it, or any of the probiotics side, but I'm really curious.

Also on my mind lately is supping newborns with bifidobacteria. I saw a reference from JaneS that she thought it was a good idea, but I'd really like to know more, preferably in the next month or so

Are there whole food bifidobacteria sources? Is it wise to do bottled probiotics here? Would going in from the other end make more sense? How does the bacteria get into breastmilk? Is it coming from internal or external sources?

How can we tell/guess which bacteria need more help? How do you distinguish a yeast issue from low mag?

I'm sure I'll have more questions. And when I'm on the other computer, good threads to link would be power of probiotics (haven't read through it yet) and the fermented veggies thread in TF.

[momofmine]

Here's another page with some doubts about bifidus:

http://recoveringnicholas.com/?m=200804

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by momofmine

Well, yes, as I said, I am still undecided on it. I think the thing to clarify though is that, the reason why the SCD recommends to stay away from bifidus as a supplement is that it is a strain that can have a likelihood to overgrow, especially in vulnerable people. Whereas L. acidophilus, S. thermophilis, L. bulgaricus, and L. caseii are just not as likely to overgrow. Bifidus can though, and has caused problems for people. So, again, that doesn't mean that it's bad, or that no one should take it. Just a matter of balance again. So for someone who is particularly dealing with an imbalance of the right kinds of bacteria, it is kind of a catch 22. Yes, you need some bifidus, but you don't want it to overgrow, but if you have a lack of it then other bad bugs can move in also.

I googled, and this seems to be a prevalent belief in the SCD community. I'm still looking to see if I can find any research measuring bifidobacteria that shows overgrowth - reading in the autism research last night, there is lots of evidence of low bifidobacteria, I don't think I saw any examples of high - but autistic guts are not very representative of everyone!

[kjbrown92]

Something I've been meaning to tell you, so I'll put it here. When I was at the osteo on Monday with DS, the osteo said that 75% of autistic children test positive for whatever the lyme disease bacteria is.... just thought I'd put it out there. Not sure what it means or what to do about it, but I thought it was interesting and didn't know if you knew of the/any connection.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by whoMe

I've been wanting this thread for the past month or so, but haven't had the brain power or time to start it!

On butyrate:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co...roller-of.html

Also on my mind lately is supping newborns with bifidobacteria. I saw a reference from JaneS that she thought it was a good idea, but I'd really like to know more, preferably in the next month or so

Are there whole food bifidobacteria sources? Is it wise to do bottled probiotics here? Would going in from the other end make more sense? How does the bacteria get into breastmilk? Is it coming from internal or external sources?

How can we tell/guess which bacteria need more help? How do you distinguish a yeast issue from low mag?

Based on the abstract I link to above, getting good bifidobacteria in your babe would be really important in allergy prone mamas. I can't figure out how it gets in breastmilk, but I assume it's reflective of your own gut bifido levels.

It's common in yogurt and some other ferments, but research suggests yogurt bifido often doesn't make it to the large intestine (yogurt isn't acidic enough).

Sounds like an OAT test is the gold standard for figuring out your gut bacteria, but it's expensive, so I'm going to do some trial and error. With autistic kids, there's some behaviors that tend to hook to certain bacteria, but that doesn't help the rest of you.

And for us, there are some symptoms now which are clearly tracking separate from low mag issues (mostly DS doesn't get low mag symptoms any more). So that's why I started looking for another cause.

OK, off to read about butyrates!

[momofmine]

babies, breastmilk, and bifidus

This kind of stuff is so exciting to me!

http://www.aes.ucdavis.edu/NewsEvent...onary-alliance

Basically it talks about how they recently (this past summer) published the gene sequencing for these bacteria. Bifidobacterium longum, subsp. infantis, actually feed on certain sugars in breastmilk that are of no nutritional use to the baby. It also identified another cluster of genes that allow the bacteria to capture and recycle urea in the baby's bowel. And that this is significant because the concentration of protein in breastmilk is often lower, and doesn't supply all of the nitrogen needed for the baby's rapid growth. They were presenting as an example of co-evolution. The bacteria and the baby help each other.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I googled, and this seems to be a prevalent belief in the SCD community. I'm still looking to see if I can find any research measuring bifidobacteria that shows overgrowth - reading in the autism research last night, there is lots of evidence of low bifidobacteria, I don't think I saw any examples of high - but autistic guts are not very representative of everyone!

Yes, it definitely is the belief among the SCD community, because this was years ago when Elaine was researching gut bacteria, and from her research, she found that bifidus can have a propensity to overgrowth, which can be detrimental for people with UC, IBD, etc. Therefore she recommended just steering clear of it as a supplement. That's not to say it's not present in the gut anyway of course. Also, a lot of people with IBD that have been on the SCD have experienced flares when taking probiotic supplements that contained bifidus or other strains, so the sentiment has been to just "go with what you know". For us, I don't know if it was the strains of bacteria in the probiotic they were taking that caused the problems (extreme gas, blood in stool, etc) or if it was the FOS. However, even when taking one of the brands (HLC Intensive) without FOS, we still had the blood. So...that's just part of the picture for us.

[mtn.mama]

I honestly can't see straight this morning, so I haven't been able to read the posts here, but when I had my comprehensive stool analysis done, it showed I had NO bifidobacteria and extra enterobacter cloacae. So I went to high dose bifido supplements while using caprylic acid and GSE to knock out the bad bacteria.

It really changed things for me, in a huge and life altering way. Okay, maybe that's going overboard, but I do not believe that I would have made the kind of progress that I did without this measure.

And FTR, my crystal has been SO SO SO picky about which probiotics and which strains would be helpful to us, that I have to believe this piece of the puzzle is extremely important.

[mamafish9]

Lisa, what different strains and brands are you using?

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Sounds like an OAT test is the gold standard for figuring out your gut bacteria, but it's expensive, so I'm going to do some trial and error.

Originally Posted by mtn.mama

I honestly can't see straight this morning, so I haven't been able to read the posts here, but when I had my comprehensive stool analysis done, it showed I had NO bifidobacteria and extra enterobacter cloacae. So I went to high dose bifido supplements while using caprylic acid and GSE to knock out the bad bacteria.

It really changed things for me, in a huge and life altering way. Okay, maybe that's going overboard, but I do not believe that I would have made the kind of progress that I did without this measure.

And FTR, my crystal has been SO SO SO picky about which probiotics and which strains would be helpful to us, that I have to believe this piece of the puzzle is extremely important.

I am so, so glad to hear this.... considering that I just spent $750 on tests, including the OAT and comprehensive stool. Ooh- I can't wait to get them back! (Should be mid-next week)

[Theloose]

Unhydrolyzed and hydrolyzed konjac glucomannans modulated cecal and fecal microflora in Balb/c mice
It looks like you CAN use prebiotics alone (konjac, here) to *change* the bacterial balance towards bifido.

Effects of konjac glucomannan hydrolysates on the gut microflora of mice
Antioxidative capacity produced by Bifidobacterium- and Lactobacillus acidophilus-mediated fermentations of konjac glucomannan and glucomannan oligosaccharides

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by whoMe

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01917/abstract
It looks like you CAN use prebiotics alone (konjac, here) to *change* the bacterial balance towards bifido.

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insigh...tentId=1746680
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

Shannon, do you know what the difference between KGH and KH is? The first increased bifido AND clostridia (bad), the second just increased bifido. I think this is basically like eating sugar - if you have a good bacterial balance, then it's not a problem, it helps all the gut flora grow. If you have a bad balance, then helping all the gut bacteria grow just means you have more bad guys.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Shannon, do you know what the difference between KGH and KH is? The first increased bifido AND clostridia (bad), the second just increased bifido. I think this is basically like eating sugar - if you have a good bacterial balance, then it's not a problem, it helps all the gut flora grow. If you have a bad balance, then helping all the gut bacteria grow just means you have more bad guys.

KH is acid hydrolyzed, whatever that means (can stomach acid count?). I'm in information collecting mode for now, I'm going to come back and actually try and put it all together later.

Speaking of which, jackpot!!
http://books.google.com/books?id=nIn...8ASLo5Z4&hl=en

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Based on the abstract I link to above, getting good bifidobacteria in your babe would be really important in allergy prone mamas. I can't figure out how it gets in breastmilk, but I assume it's reflective of your own gut bifido levels.

Yes small amounts are in bm, but I have read references that breastmilk contains a special type of lactose that specifically encourages bifido growth.

[JaneS]

I just lost a big long post. Sigh.

Healing the Gut Cheat Sheet references to infants and gut flora:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6&postcount=20

IMO Elaine Gottschall never backed up her beliefs with science. Epidemiological studies are not at all reliable with respect to the variation of diet and many other factors:
http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.i...kb/bifidus.htm

Many studies have shown that in healthy adults bifidobacteria numbers 10 times more than lactobacillus, dominating the colon while lacto is present in small intestine.

I agree with mtn.mama as we can't argue with success either... bifido helped my DS in a major way and the SCD did not.

My recent concern in light of Robyn O'Brien's book, "The Unhealthy Truth", is whether probiotics grown on GMO soy may play a factor in seriously messing with our gut flora and immune system.

[chlobo]

Originally Posted by mtn.mama

I honestly can't see straight this morning, so I haven't been able to read the posts here, but when I had my comprehensive stool analysis done, it showed I had NO bifidobacteria and extra enterobacter cloacae. So I went to high dose bifido supplements while using caprylic acid and GSE to knock out the bad bacteria.

It really changed things for me, in a huge and life altering way. Okay, maybe that's going overboard, but I do not believe that I would have made the kind of progress that I did without this measure.

And FTR, my crystal has been SO SO SO picky about which probiotics and which strains would be helpful to us, that I have to believe this piece of the puzzle is extremely important.

So was it McDreamy that told you which probiotics to use or did you do it on your own?

I also tested with no bifido. I've bee using a multi-strain but maybe I should switch to just bifido for a while. Also haven't tried OAT. Maybe that's next.

[mamafish9]

LOL @ McDreamy.

And we need to see if we can get a group discount on the OAT test!

DS seems to be doing better today - still a very slight fever after the probiotics dose, but yesterday was the worst day (day 3) and now he seems on the upswing. I'll be fascinated to see what his symptoms are in a few more days! (My plan right now is to keep up the intensive dose for at least 7 days, maybe up to 14, then go to twice a week, and then down to once/whenever he seems to need it).