It's easy to *say* things have got to change...

[Amber Lion]

... but what do you do when things can't/don't change? "If you resent it, change it." Ok, but HOW?!?

DD is a sleep fighter and a frequent waker. On average it takes about an hour of wrestling/kicking/scratching/pinching/nursing/crying until she exhausts herself to sleep. The most she has ever slept in one stretch has been 4 hours and it felt like heaven, but didn't last for longer than a week or so. Her more usual is about 2 hours, lately she's only stayed asleep if she's actively nursing.

I'm am absolutely not willing to let her CIO. I'm not willing to let her cry it out in arms either because this girl does not just fuss when she doesn't get boob at night, she cries hysterically until she can barely breathe and gags and will not stop until she gets to nurse. Dh has to put her down for naps 2 days a week and she cries like this until she passes out every time. Those days she doesn't have a choice, I can't sit in the other room and listen to her when I *could* be in there with her even if I am coming to the end of my rope.

My parenting is suffering. I don't like being so fed up with her that I can't stand her when we wake up in the morning! I know teething plays a role, but I don't have any reserves for when her night wakings go from bad to worse. She also only has 4 teeth... she's not going to be done teething for a loooooooong time.

I'm a pro at being a martyr... I can handle anything for as long as I need to. I *can* keep doing this until she figures out how to sleep on her own... but I'm scared of the Mama I'm going to be by the time that happens. Something always gives. I resent and loathe naptimes, bedtimes, and all. night. long.

So what do you do when you've finally admitted you don't think you can take it anymore and something needs to change.... but if something *could* have changed you would have done it already?!?

[LadyCatherine185]

mama I am there with you. I don't really have any advice because I have not found anything to make DS sleep better. I also cannot stand to hear him cry, even if it is in DH's arms.. no matter how tired I am. Maybe someone will have some good advice for us...

FWIW, DS is almost done teething (has all but 2 year molars) and still waking every hour +....

[bobandjess99]

Is it possible she's actually hungry? When dd started nursing ALL night long, it was because my supply was low, and she was literally HUNGRY all night long, because only a trickle was coming out, so she had to suckle ALL night long to get enough. I found that by pumping so that i had a full, easy to suckle bottle full of BM for dd to gulp down at bedtime, it bought me a few hours. After suffering through it with her for a very long time, I came to the conclusion I could NOt do that again, for anything. And i gave myself permission to supplement with artificial milk, shoudl it seem necesary, with ds, if it literally meant the diference between being able to sleep and parent and be a halfway-normal productive , loving mom, and being a bitter, resentful, sleep-deprived, crappy mom.
In place of boob, would she take a bottle? And does it help? Is it something you are willing to try?

[LadyCatherine185]

I can't speak for the OP, but I know that it is probably not our issue. DS has been in the 90th % for weight (and 75th for height--he's a chunk) his whole life.. definitely not hungry. And he eats a decent amount of solids too during the day, so I don't believe hunger is the issue.

I think some babies, for whatever reason, are just hardwired to wake frequently for a long time. Dr. Sears talks about it in his High Needs baby book. I wish there could be some sort of AP-friendly sleep study on babies like this and see if there is a common denomenator....

[Ravenlunatic]

Well for what it is worth our nursing and sleeping got a whole lot better at 19months. My dd was a late teether too and we were done with that at 19 months too. It seems you may be at a time that seems soo, soo bad in several months you will be on the other side. Hang in there... a bouncy ball saved our lives and a rocker I could sleep in at least part of the time. and I would drive my dd down on those days I couldn't possbily nurse her again and again. Screw the gas money I was driving and singing.

Good Luck.

[lifeguard]

We've had similar problems. Ds took FOREVER to settle into a predictable sleeping schedule, never slept more than 2-3 hours at a stretch & fought going to sleep like a pro.

What has been working for us has been focussing on one problem at a time. For the schedule we discovered purposely waking him at the same time every morning seemed to set him up better.

Over Christmas we nightweaned & now he is sleeping longer stretches (thank goodness) & dh is now able to settle him in the night as well as me.

Now we are focussing on making going to bed more pleasant. Ds is either asleep or awake so all this "put them down drowsy" stuff has never worked & now he actively fights sleep. But we'll get there - one baby step at a time.

[LadyCatherine185]

I just wanted to add that, even though you probably can't change your DD's sleep patterns, you CAN change other things. Are YOU getting enough rest during the day? Do you go to bed when she goes to bed, nap when she does, etc.? Are you eating healthy, getting some excersize? I feel like my whole life is set up to make it easier on me not getting sleep, but it is what works for right now. We tried changing things many times, and most things didn't work. I did enlist DH's help putting DS to bed (he now ASKS for "daddy ni-night") and that has at least taken that part off of me. DH also takes DS in the morning and lets me sleep until he leaves for work around 7. He also takes DS out on the weekends, and lets me sleep in until 9-10. I keep things pretty low key, only plan one "outing" a day, don't worry too much about chores/dinner/cleaning, etc...

Also, blackout curtains and white noise have made a big difference.

[bobandjess99]

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

I can't speak for the OP, but I know that it is probably not our issue. DS has been in the 90th % for weight (and 75th for height--he's a chunk) his whole life.. definitely not hungry. ....

While I'm not trying to disagree with you, since you know far more about your situation than i do, i did just want to interject that it IS possible to be fat yet hungry. my dd was compeltely above the charts...like, way, way above. She weighed 31 pounds when she was 8 months old. She looked like the Michelin man..I mean, truly obese. Because I had no foremilk. Youknow, the "bulk" of the milk, it's watery and has fwe calories, but contains nutrients and water and is the bulk of a dfeeding? But there was plenty of cream..in fact, it was basically just all cream...because there was so little milk, dd was getting an insanely high proportion of cream to foremilk, so she gained weight like CRAZY, even though she was STARVINGLY hungry ALL the time. While i was at the special breastfeeding clinic, I made friends with a mom who had the opposite problem as I did..she had TONS of milk..just tons and tons and tons...such that her son never got any hindmilk/cream. Even if she pumped some off, or let some spray into a cloth, etc, there were just gallons (it seemed like, lol) of foremilk. And her son was starving (below 1st percentile, literally FTT diagnosis) even though he was sucking down all the milk he could hold. So...my kid was the fattest baby ever, but felt like she was starving because she got only tiny trickles of highly creamy milk, while her son was constantly full, engorged from his gallons of foremilk, yet FTT because he wasn't getting near enough calories. It would have been funny, were it not so tragic.

Anyway...just wanted to say that an average or even fat baby might actually be hungry.

[NiteNicole]

Originally Posted by lifeguard

What has been working for us has been focussing on one problem at a time. For the schedule we discovered purposely waking him at the same time every morning seemed to set him up better.

Yes, yes, yes! My daughter was a TERRIBLE sleeper until she was three or so. It was awful and I was so tired. She was also one who would cry until she gagged and threw up so CIO was never an option (also, I just couldn't). I FINALLY read Sleepless in America - it was possibly the only sleep book I hadn't read and I just didn't have the energy to tackle another book telling me what I already knew (scientific stuff about sleep and statistics) and presenting one of two methods I already KNEW I couldn't live with (suck it up or cry it out) so I was not really expecting any answers but it helped SO much. I finally GOT IT. It's not just about a bedtime routine, some kids need a good night's sleep to start in the morning - getting up at the same time, having a predictable flow to the day with the right foods and the right activties at the right times. It sounds complicated, but once I got our days worked out, the bedtime horror and night wakings took care of themselves.

One of the hardest things for me was waking her up. I knew that if she had a rare good day and night, her natural waking time was around 7.30. After a bad night, if she would sleep late it was SO tempting to just LET HER and try to catch up, but I had to start waking her up.

I think it also helps if you give yourself time to work out what you want to do, how you're going to do it, and then get someone to help with the night parenting (or ask someone to come over so you can nap) for a few day so you can be well rested and committed to your new plan, as well as calm when you hit a crisis. It's so easy, or it was for me, to just give up when something didn't "work" the first time...or in the first few days. I wanted results RIGHT NOW. It took a week or two for us to really see a big change, but we did work the bugs out.

If you can muster up the energy to read one more book (and I didn't even have to read the whole thing, a lot of it did not apply to us), Sleepless in America is the one!

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by bobandjess99

While I'm not trying to disagree with you, since you know far more about your situation than i do, i did just want to interject that it IS possible to be fat yet hungry. my dd was compeltely above the charts...like, way, way above. She weighed 31 pounds when she was 8 months old. She looked like the Michelin man..I mean, truly obese. Because I had no foremilk. Youknow, the "bulk" of the milk, it's watery and has fwe calories, but contains nutrients and water and is the bulk of a dfeeding? But there was plenty of cream..in fact, it was basically just all cream...because there was so little milk, dd was getting an insanely high proportion of cream to foremilk, so she gained weight like CRAZY, even though she was STARVINGLY hungry ALL the time. While i was at the special breastfeeding clinic, I made friends with a mom who had the opposite problem as I did..she had TONS of milk..just tons and tons and tons...such that her son never got any hindmilk/cream. Even if she pumped some off, or let some spray into a cloth, etc, there were just gallons (it seemed like, lol) of foremilk. And her son was starving (below 1st percentile, literally FTT diagnosis) even though he was sucking down all the milk he could hold. So...my kid was the fattest baby ever, but felt like she was starving because she got only tiny trickles of highly creamy milk, while her son was constantly full, engorged from his gallons of foremilk, yet FTT because he wasn't getting near enough calories. It would have been funny, were it not so tragic.

Anyway...just wanted to say that an average or even fat baby might actually be hungry.

Wow! Well, when I pump I get mostly foremilk with a little cream on top.. But like I said, I am pretty sure he isn't starving at 17 months he is eating good solids and nursing about 5X during the day. And my supply is still good.. I still get full and can feel when he has nursed/drained each side, etc.

[Amber Lion]

Originally Posted by bobandjess99

Is it possible she's actually hungry?

Anything's possible. She hasn't been into solids until very recently and even though her interest is finally there she still consumes very little. She will not take BM in any form other than from the boob though, so a bottle is out. We've noticed that sometimes she does sleep a little better if she's eaten a lot (for her) during the day, but we can't force her to eat. And a full belly doesn't equal a good night either, just sometimes.

Originally Posted by Ravenlunatic

and I would drive my dd down on those days I couldn't possbily nurse her again and again. Screw the gas money I was driving and singing.

DD has always hated her carseat. She cries and cries and cries unless I'm in the back seat entertaining her or nursing her. She will fall asleep while driving, but only if I'm hanging over the carseat nursing and that's totally uncomfortable and not worth it when half the time she wakes when we try to transfer her inside.

Originally Posted by lifeguard

What has been working for us has been focussing on one problem at a time.

Thanks for this perspective. I can see that the fighting going to sleep and the frequent night waking might have different causes. If it was only one or the other, I think it'd be easier to handle. Both makes it sooo hard.

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

Are YOU getting enough rest during the day? Do you go to bed when she goes to bed, nap when she does, etc.? Are you eating healthy, getting some excersize?
Also, blackout curtains and white noise have made a big difference.

We do blackout curtains and white noise, have for months. I think they do help and now I'm addicted to them as well! As for the other stuff... in short, no. I work and go to school and naptimes and after bedtime are my only opportunities to do my homework. My Dh only has one day off a week, so I don't ever get to sleep in either, except maybe once every 2 weeks or so. I know this plays into my sleep deprivation, but I don't have a choice about it.

Originally Posted by NiteNicole

If you can muster up the energy to read one more book (and I didn't even have to read the whole thing, a lot of it did not apply to us), Sleepless in America is the one!

I haven't actually read any books on sleep, just been going by our intuitions. I'll see if I can get this at the library, thanks for the recommendation!



Last night took her 1.5 hours to finally fall asleep, then she woke up 2 hrs later and needed to nurse for the rest of the night. Somewhere in the wee hours my nipples were raw and I needed a break, so she cried and cried and cried and cried and finally did fall asleep to Dh soothing her (she certainly didn't respond to me!). When she woke up again I gave in and nursed her and just delt with it. Dh said it was encouraging to him that she responded to him and is suggesting trying nightweaning with the plan of letting it go if she doesn't respond well to it. I'm not willing to make her cry hysterically all night. I really don't think it's going to work, but I guess we have to try it before we'll no for sure. I'm not all that happy with the idea of night weaning, but *something* has to give so maybe I need to give up my ideals about this.

[LadyCatherine185]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were working and in school. I am sleep deprived, but I cannot imagine working or going to school in addition to being up all night.

In your case, I think I would try maybe partial nightweaning, maybe letting your DH take over half of the night (or all night if he would) and see if that helps. Give it a week or two and if there are no improvements, you can always go back to what you were doing.

[norajune'smama]

i'm going to become freaky allergy lady on this forum.
i just have to jump in and ask about allergy symptoms. it took me so long to realize that my dd's TERRIBLE sleep was allergy related. does your LO have any symptoms, rash or funny bm's?
if it makes you feel better, it consistently takes my dd Three hours to fall asleep. it is so tough.

[karika]

Sweetie, if you are working and going to school, your child is missing you most likely. She wants to be with you and if you are mostly only with her at night, then that is her opportunity in her view. Treat this situation and her with this in mind. Please read about reverse cycling. This link doesn't necessarily have the advice I would offer, but it is a place to start... http://www.kellymom.com/bf/normal/reverse-cycling.html

I would suggest being away from her less, even if it means giving up cell phones or cable tv or eating out. They are only this small once, and it sounds like she needs you more than she is getting. Also, for anyone that feels they are having this problem, are you consuming caffeine at all? This will affect children more than you know. Caffeine is a chemical drug, as is HFCS that creates wakefulness in children via the breastmilk. Breastfeeding is the only safe way to feed our children IMO, so I hope people can give up this drug while they have small children. I do not consume caffeine on a regular basis, but whenever I have my children didn't sleep either... hth s

[Amber Lion]

Karika - I absolutely respect what you're saying and if I thought it was reverse cycling it would be a whole other story. I've been a SAHM until this month and this has been her sleeping pattern since birth. I work and go to school part-time each and it is arranged so I am only gone from her on Tuesdays and Thursdays, when Dh cares for her.

Norajune'smama - we've looked into allergies before, but nothing has resolved itself. We could dig deeper, but I don't have any weight to spare to lose on more elimination diets so the thought is daunting.

[karika]

I am glad you wrote back in. So if you are not away from her that much, and caffeine isn't the culprit, hmmmm Is she consuming food colorings? that is a huge trigger for dd1. dd2 is about 14 mo and she rarely sleeps for more than 4 hrs at once... she wakes up to nurse every 3-4 hrs, but we don't have any schedules to keep so it doesn't bother me. I wake up briefly and then we both go back to sleep usually. I just reread your other posts. In one you say, "I don't have a choice about it." You always have a choice. If you are not getting enough rest, this will affect you greatly. I have found with this second child that sleep was important to me. I made it a priority. I get only broken sleep due to waking to nurse (though we cosleep, I still have to wake up to reposition and such) also I am the lightest sleeper I have ever known since having children and if someone breathes in the hallway I awaken. Some of these times I cannot return to sleep. What I have found works for me is readjusting my priorities. I spend the majority of my time in our bedroom. I lie down with the baby at every opportunity. oh but this isn't what you asked... in a child her age with such sleeplessness issues I would suspect the following: caffeine (chocolate), HFCS, red #40, dairy (especially if she pees a lot in night still), sugar, or toxicity from exposure to vaccines or household ones. DD1 reacts to sugar like a rat does to cocaine in the trials I have seen. I still let her have snacks made from pure cane sugar and juice, though neither of those after what is considered a lunchtime part of day. Also we do not live in the regular 24 hr day frame. dd1 has never gotten used to any type of schedule, though we have tried it quite a few times. It is as though her day is longer than 24 hours by her circadian clock.... we generally go to bed 1 hour later every day. For instance, if we fall asleep at 11pm one night, the next night it will be 12, the next will be 1, etc... sometimes it is more than one hour... it works for us to not worry about what time the clock says and focus on what her body language is telling me. when she is acting tired, I facilitate bedtime....maybe your child is just not ready for bed, or prefers to sleep only 4 hrs at a time, in which case I would suggest sleeping an opposite schedule to the other caregiver so that someone is awake at all times and a cuddle person in the bed.... baby needs me

[Pookietooth]

I have a friend who figured out her ds has heavy metal toxicity (not sure which metals), and chelation has helped him sleep better. He would wake every 1-2 hours at night. She went to a naturopath who specializes in chelation to have a special test for it.

[Momtwice]

The book Crying Baby Sleepless Nights by Sandy Jones has TONS of ideas and will not tell you to CIO. If it's not in print anymore your library may be able to borrow it from another library, or it may be in your local LLL library.

And her delaying solids herself suggests possible allergies to me too, but this book has LOTS of other things to try.

[Amber Lion]

RE: Allergies
Is there a way to check for allergies without doing elimination diets? I'm not kidding when I say I have no weight to spare losing by cutting out parts of my diet - I'm 30 lbs below pre-pg weight and am skin and bones, most of it was lost when I eliminated dairy when she was 4-10 months old. Cutting out dairy made some eczema go away, but her sleeping habits never got any better. Within the last month she's had the eczema come back, so we're going to cut out dairy again probably, but when I cut out dairy I rely even more heavily on soy and wheat and nut butters, etc. all of which are next on the list to eliminate.

I've decided to wait on the nightweaning until this bout of teething is over. Her sleep normally sucks, but is worse b/c she's got two more teeth coming in and I think trying to make any improvements now isn't worth it. Then, if it's not too traumatic on her, we'll see if nightweaning helps.

[Maluhia]

good luck Mama