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Pica : how many times would you go through this?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Our dog is almost 11. He has eaten foreign objects all his life. We have exercised him plenty and before our DD was born, he was the center of our life so he has gotten plenty of attention. Now that he's older, the foreign objects don't pass on their own. In the past 3 years, we've spent probably $5000 on surgeries, barium series, and xrays. He's at the vet now and the dr wants to do surgery again. I'm really tired of this, and so is dh, but we're both torn. We know it will happen again. We love our dog, but we have another baby due this year, and it's likely to get worse. When do you say enough?

My dh is home all day and watches him, so we can't do more to prevent it . His intestines are so messed up that just a little toilet paper clogs him. He has chew toys. He gets walks.

Wwyd? If we refuse surgery this time, he'll have to be euthanized. We're trying an enema.

I just need to know if we're horrible for not giving him a fifth chance (third surgery).
post #2 of 19
Thread Starter 
An update because I can see some people have viewed this: the blockage seems to be moving thanks to the enema, and we should be able to bring him home this afternoon. I'm sure it will still be several hundred dollars, but at least it's not thousands.

And I'm sure we'll go through this again, so does anyone want to chime in? If this were your dog and you felt like you were doing everything you could to prevent the problem, how many more chances would you give him? Feel free to let me know if you think I'm being cold and callous.

Phrased another way: what is your limit on treatments for your pets? I suppose if it's a case of a terminal illness where treatment will just prolong the sufferering, it's easier to say. This is not (yet) a terminal condition, though he is weaker and less continent and has more digestive problems after each incident. And since he had to have a part of his intestine removed with the first surgery because the section had died, the vet said they wouldn't be able to do that in subsequent surgeries. If a piece dies due to blockage again, they won't be able to save him, so it could become terminal. Arghh. Sigh. Blech.

I know I probably do seem callous, but I strongly advocated for him the first two times he had surgery, saying that we are responsible for him and shouldn't give up on him, but I'm just getting so tired of it.

Anyone know about medicating dogs? Would some anti-anxiety meds help?
post #3 of 19
I saw this in New Posts and since nobody else has responded, I'll give it a shot.

I don't know exactly how many times I'd go thruogh surgery/enemas/x-rays and the like. I can tell you what I'd base the decision on though.

Can I afford this? I couldn't afford the kind of money you're talking about, but if you can, and it's not adversely affecting your family's living situation, it's not an issue. If you can't really afford that amount of money and it's taking away from the quality of your lives, that has to be considered.

Is the dog happy? Between "episodes", does he enjoy life? Do you enjoy life with him? Or is he in bad shape physically, not interacting, or detecting this resentment?

FWIW, when I was young, one of our dogs had panic attacks. She was afraid of rain, later on phobic really, and nothing my parents tried helped. More training, more exercising, keeping her indoors as much as possible, even medication ... eventually she would freak out and destroy things/run away/etc when there were any clouds in the sky. My parents talked with us about whether she was really happy, and we agreed with them that she probably wasn't (this was a daily occurrence by then). They did have her euthanized. I still think it was the right choice for her. It was no way to live.

And no, I don't think you're being cold and callous.
post #4 of 19
I read it before and didn't respond because I couldn't think of anything honestly positive to say.

But here is what I think. I can totally understand being sick and tired of dealing with it. And it must be exhausting having to be very careful what is within his reach to keep him safe. And clearly your efforts haven't been able to do that. But a dog is like a child, he doesn't have the brain capacity to know that if he eats toilet paper or whatever that it's going to cause a blockage and he could die. It's like babyproofing your house because your infant doesn't understand not poking a fork in the light socket.

You use the term "giving him one more chance", but it's a dog. He isn't going to learn not to eat toilet paper or whatever. If he survives this episode I'd seriously consider the option of finding him another home where his needs can be better accommodated. It sounds like you have done the best you can. To me this wouldn't warrant putting him down. His isn't terminally ill. He just needs more than your family might be able to accommodate right now.
post #5 of 19
I really doubt something like fluoxetine would work for your dog. Discuss it with your vet, or better yet, a veterinary behaviorist (be VERY careful finding a trainer who calls themselves a behaviorist.. I would be happy to elaborate on this if you're interested) to find a treatment method that would work.

But here are my thoughts.

It sounds like the dog is very mouthy and gets a lot out of oral stimulation. Some dogs are just like this. It's no different than some dogs being obsessed with balls, or pacing the yard, or jumping. It's a vice, and obviously on the extreme end of the spectrum, but no different than other doggy vices.

It also sounds like he may be lacking stimulation in other areas that he makes up for with the oral fixation. Like physical exercise. I realize at 11 years old it might be difficult to tire him to exhaustion, which brings me to my next point.

He would probably benefit really well having a dog proofed area where his oral needs can be met in a safe way. A place like a gated kitchen, laundry room, foyer, or someplace with bare floors where it can be just him, some chew stuff, and a stainless steel bowl of water.

Also, I am not against re-homing dogs IF the dog is in the physical and mental state to transition well, AND, if the home he's going to is better suited to meeting the needs that are not being met in his current home. If the latter can't be found, you're essentially bouncing him, which is unfair and irresponsible. If you can find a home that meets those criteria, it might better for all involved. However, he's 11. There's a good chance it could be mildly stressful, which could just cause him to relying even more on the satisfaction of chewing.

At this point you should resign yourself to supervising this dog 100% of time (and by that I mean within a few feet of the dog, not distracted by computers or kids or phones.. eyes on the dog and the dog only), or creating a safe area where he has access to NOTHING that is chewable. A lot of people feel like "meanies" for gating their beloved dog in the kitchen all day when the dog is used to having full access to the house, but I think it would be the lesser of all evils, and a lot easier to get used to than a new home.

Have you considered feeding him a raw diet? You'd be able to customize his diet to include a lot of chewing (bones). You could feed several small meals a day to offer lots of opportunities to chew. Although at his age he may not take to a raw diet easily, which could also be frustrating.

And lastly, you could try a basket muzzle. They can still drink water, but with a fine mesh he'd be unable to chew (or not chew as much). He'd still be able to run the house, but most objects wouldn't be chewable (though sometimes they can small objects through the wires, hence finding a fine mesh style).

I think a gated safe area would be your best full proof plan though.
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thank you for your honest replies. Deep down -- no, I don't even have to go that deep -- I know it would be wrong to put him down for this. We were already wavering on our "no surgery" decision yesterday before the vet called to say it was moving. He has seemed a bit depressed since our daughter was born, but it's hard to compensate for the attention that she gets. She is now old enough to want to play with him, but he usually doesn't want to. I would say that his destructive nature (several of the things he's eaten have been hers) would be due to resentment, but he also ate things long before she came -- gloves, wallets, pay checks, books, etc.

At most times, though, he is still very engaged and happy about being alive, so it was weighing very heavily on me to think about ending his life. Not to mention, my husband especially has had a deep bond with him. It's hard to explain how we got to the point we are now, emotionally.

I had read somewhere about trying several small meals a day, and maybe that would work. I don't know anything about a raw diet, so I'll have to look it up.

Maybe we could also try blocking him off in our bedroom when we're not directly supervising him. We used to do that when we were gone, but he now knows how to escape our usual method of barricade, so we'll just have to try something better. He has rawhides that he likes to chew, but he is not interested in most other safe chew toys. The things he likes best are stuffed animals, and he rips those to shreds, which is dangerous when he ingests the cloth and stuffing. Can anyone think of anything safe that would give him the feeling he gets from ripping up stuffed toys?

Thanks again for your replies. We were just very, very frustrated. The money is hard to part with, but at this point, it's not a true hardship.
post #7 of 19
I read too and didnt respond as I was having a hard time getting my thoughts on it organized.

Agre with the other posters,,,,really you have to be proactive in not letting him get things. Also if you are watching closely and he does manage to get something, you will know and can induce vomitting with hydrogen peroxide to get it up....messy, but effective and cheap.

That being said, if you are not willing or able to do this to keep him safe, rehoming or euthanasia would be kinder options.
post #8 of 19
North of 60 had a great idea about creating a special area that you know is doggie proof and keeping him in there when you can't watch him. Not sure if he is crate trained already but that could be an option.

Do check out the raw diet, our dogs have been on it for a few years now and are thriving.
post #9 of 19
Another vote for raw diet here. I'm not sure if it would make a difference that part of your dogs intestine had to be removed, but my dogs love to chew on an entire raw chicken (done outside or in a crate due to mess) and dogs are designed to digest raw bones beautifully. If my dogs have a meal with a lot of bones their poop turns white and chalky when it dries in the sun and disintegrates- it all breaks down in the digestive tract.

If I give them a whole chicken, I let them chew for 20-30 minutes and then bag the remainder for another meal. This might satisfy your dogs urge to tear something up. Some dogs need a couple of exposures to raw meat before they figure it out and get excited if they are not used to it. Right now I am alternating between a grain free kibble with a few raw meat meals per week, but in the past I have fed raw exclusively. Right now I have one older dog who prefers the dry food and a 1 yr old dog who will eat anything and prefers raw.

Since sometimes pica signals some sort of nutritional deficiency had you tried different dog foods to see if it makes any difference?

Gotta go, toddler is up from her nap...

Oh, I can't really say on the financial aspect...really depends what you can pull from your budget. I agree with the other posters on having a safe area if at all possible.
post #10 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azdesertrn View Post
Another vote for raw diet here. I'm not sure if it would make a difference that part of your dogs intestine had to be removed, but my dogs love to chew on an entire raw chicken (done outside or in a crate due to mess) and dogs are designed to digest raw bones beautifully.
Oh my goodness. Our dog would go mad with glee if we gave him a whole raw chicken. My husband has never allowed him to have bones unless they are the big femur kind from the pet store. He's afraid he'll choke on them. I'll let him read this. We have a whole cooked chicken for our dinner once every couple of weeks. I guess it would be all right to let him have the bones from that?

He came home from the vet yesterday and seems to be doing well -- eating and not vomiting -- though he has had much of a bowel movement. I hope that whatever is in there doesn't get stuck again. The vet said it could take a couple of days for it to come out.

We talked yesterday and decided that it's our responsibility, not the dog's, to make sure this doesn't happen again. Fingers crossed.
post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyKT View Post
Oh my goodness. Our dog would go mad with glee if we gave him a whole raw chicken. My husband has never allowed him to have bones unless they are the big femur kind from the pet store. He's afraid he'll choke on them. I'll let him read this. We have a whole cooked chicken for our dinner once every couple of weeks. I guess it would be all right to let him have the bones from that?
Yeah, except the key is RAW bones. Raw bones are digested well. Don't give cooked bones, especially not cooked chicken bones... they will splinter or something... I forget exactly why not - perhaps someone else here knows?

Check the meat department of your grocery store - they may have fresh or frozen beef bones. Sometimes they're labelled marrow bones, or soup bones. They're thick slices of a bone and about fist-sized. They might be a good option (but always supervise especially the first few times your dog has one).
post #12 of 19
really? refuse surgery? wow! would you refuse it for your child? if someone is home with him all the time I'm confused as to how he keeps eating these foreign objects? Maybe someone needs to clean the floor area more? just a suggestion... but in your case a perfectly clean floor is probably going to help a lot!
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyKT View Post
Oh my goodness. Our dog would go mad with glee if we gave him a whole raw chicken. My husband has never allowed him to have bones unless they are the big femur kind from the pet store. He's afraid he'll choke on them. I'll let him read this. We have a whole cooked chicken for our dinner once every couple of weeks. I guess it would be all right to let him have the bones from that?
cooked bones are not acceptable food for a dog. They splinter and will cause even worse problems than you have already experienced. Perforated stomach or intestines. And cooked chicken bones are the worst. Ours like chicken pieces, we don't feed our dogs whole carcasses as one of them is a small breed and it's just too much food. And I have no desire to try and get a 1/2 eaten carcass from them. They also like beef and pork but it's easier to keep the bone to meat ratio balanced with chicken, at least for us.
post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
Ok. Got it. No cooked bones. Thanks for the clarification.

I think rationing out raw chicken pieces is a good idea. Our dog is a Brittany, so he's not terribly big. I think letting him do this every few days would certainly make him happy.
post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimL View Post
really? refuse surgery? wow! would you refuse it for your child? if someone is home with him all the time I'm confused as to how he keeps eating these foreign objects? Maybe someone needs to clean the floor area more? just a suggestion... but in your case a perfectly clean floor is probably going to help a lot!

Thanks, Kim, but if you read through you'll see that I've had a change of heart. I was simply frustrated, and yes, we do keep a rather clean and tidy house. That's why it's so puzzling how he continues to find opportunities. We've had 11 years of this, so we know his weak spots, but he continues to find more targets, and besides, the stress to his intestines means that even simple things, like TP and apparently some sort of string this last time, can be trouble. With a 2 yo in the house, it's not possible to keep absolutely everything off the floor at all times. A dryer sheet that falls from a load of laundry on the way from the laundry room to the bedroom can be a target for him. Thanks for your input.
post #16 of 19
My dog is not my child. I would not refuse surgery on my child, I would consider euthanizing my dog if there was no possible way I could afford the surgery without significant financial hardship. I will gladly be homeless if my child needed it, I won't do that for a dog. Everyone feels differently about their pets.

Amy, I'm glad you came to a decision you are at peace with. I also like the "dog proof" area--would it be possible to gate off any area so he can be close to you but won't be able to chew anything up? Our lab likes to chew books and toys so we pulled our couch a few feet from the wall and gate off that area. It's probably 2 feet by 6 feet, so he has a decent amount of room and even though he hasn't been crate trained he's happy back there. He has a bed and some chew toys, no food or water because he isn't back there for long periods of time. We spend probably 85% of our time in the living room (which is baby gated from the rest of the house because of the kids) so when DH or I are in there with him he's out with the family, but when we are sleeping or gone or I'm fixing dinner he's back in his corner.
post #17 of 19
I have a 12 yo Jack Russell with similar habits-just wanted to affirm one of your own suggestions-which was to feed small meals often. We've seen good results from doing that for about a year now.
post #18 of 19
I see it was already clarified (I haven't been on the computer for a few days), but yes, RAW bones only. Cooked bones are dangerous.

I don't feed whole chicken carcasses all the time- but when there is a good sale......

If you are exclusively raw feeding you have to add organ meats into the diet so its balanced (chicken livers etc..) But for occasional treats its not as important since they will get balanced nutrition from their dog food. Now that I am only feeding raw a few times a week, I can usually find chicken leg quarters the cheapest (drumstick and thigh connected) If I give anything too small the dogs are more likely to swallow it whole (and vomit), so big pieces work better for us. One nearby store sometimes has turkey wings on sale and those are good for some chewing (chicken wings are too small for us)
post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mata View Post
I have a 12 yo Jack Russell with similar habits-just wanted to affirm one of your own suggestions-which was to feed small meals often. We've seen good results from doing that for about a year now.
In addition to feeding frequent small meals, you could "package" those small meals so they are more interactive & last longer. Kongs! Get a large, black kong (black is the toughest rubber - almost impossible to get any chunks off). Stuff the Kong with kibble for your dog's meals. Maybe add a tiny bit of something wet (peanut butter? cheese?) and that will help the kibble stick inside a bit, making the meal last even longer. It will help satisfy the urge to chew and keep him entertained.
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