We go to a church that is a plant from a large church, which is either nondom or baptist depending on exactly what you think they mean (the church itself doesn't seem to be entirely sure, depends which bit of paper you read as to whether they say nondom or baptist, they are affiliated with the Baptist General Conference).
The pastor of the new church is a former youth pastor and then preaching pastor of a 3rd service at the parent church, the way things were structured there, that meant he wasn't an elder. The elders of the new church are two of the elders from the parent church and the three of them form the elder board. Currently the new church doesn't have any formal membership, some of us were members of the parent church, some were "just" regular attenders of that third service and others have come from either other churchs or are new to the area. So we're a mixed bag, believe in adult baptism, but it's not mentioned on the website and only gets mentioned when a child is dedicated or in the run up to the one baptism service that the church has held. The existance of the church was made public in Sept 08 and our first service away from the parent church was in March 09, so we're pretty new!
This has coincided with a rough time in our lives, I got pregnant in Sept 08, an unplanned 3rd child after a gap when we'd just decided we were definitely done! I had severe PPD with our first, but not our 2nd, but had a horrific delivery, which was very disabling for the first couple of years and I was only 10mths past surgery to fix one of the many injuries.
I think we were actually both thrilled to be blessed in this way, we'd probably never have tried to make it happen, but she was much wanted, but that doesn't take away all the practical difficulties and unfortunately I began to get depressed during the pregnancy and probably should have got help sooner than I did. Our baby was born in May 09 and my depression continued and failed to respond to treatment, I had bad reactions to some medications, including one that landed me on a cardiac ward for 2 days. Finally in late November we found one that began to help, I feel amazing compared to how I was, but the reality is whilst I wouldn't say I feel sad, I have pretty much every other symptom to some extent.
To the outside world, it almost seems forgotten, 2mths ago I couldn't hold a conversation, cried most of the time and couldn't give eye contact, so the fact I can actually talk with some eye contact is a dramatic change, which meant I could engage in our marital counselling sessions, which had begun on the advice of the pastor, our marriage does need help, mostly because I have been so ill which has put an immense amount of strain on DH, he's almost been a single parent whilst holding down a full time job with a zombie in the house that also needed to be fed.
Rightly or wrongly, after I was actually able to engage in a couple of sessions, I expressed to the pastor that I didn't think this counsellor was working, without even listening to why, he instantly asked me to sign a disclosure agreement so he could talk with the counsellor and he could make that decision.
My instant response was rebellion, no, you aren't going to make that kind of decision for me and I'm not doing that.
Christmas stopped the pastor from following up this issue, but I was still meeting with my psychiatrist and therapist, so was able to talk through possibilites. So when I got a message from the pastor's assistant trying to schedule a meeting but also requesting that the form be signed before even scheduling it, I responded that I'd sign, but not undated and that I'd prefer to hold a conference call, which she responded was not what he'd asked and to let her know when I'd done what was asked.
We saw the marriage counsellor again this week and the three of us agreed that we weren't getting anywhere and we should try someone else. At that stage I was at the point of thinking I'd sign the form, still dated, but let them talk without me, but in that session my husband indicated that his expectation would be that the pastor would then talk to the new counsellor before we even met with him, which I knew would cause me issues in opening up to a new counsellor, so we left without me having signed the form.
I contacted the pastor to let him know how things stood and he told me that I'd manipulated the situation to avoid signing the form, by which stage I'd realised that I could still sign and date the form and if a new counsellor accepted information about us before meeting with us then that would be a clear sign that that person wouldn't work for me, so I said I would do that, signing and dating doesn't prevent me signing another form without a date in future, but doing that currently when I know the law allows me to revoke it at any stage and that I would intend to do that would make it dishonest to sign it without a date.
He said he would discuss the issue with the elders with a view to removing me from the church, if I couldn't obey is exact command then that was the appropriate thing to do, he also mentioned in further demonstration of my lack of submission that I was breastfeeding in church without a cover, when I knew that it made some people uncomfortable and that I was not friends with a person he wanted me to be friends with, which was funny in a way because in no way are we not still friends and any cooling has been mutual. I think what he meant was that I was not following her exact command/opinion, which I'm not, but then her exact command would include offering my then 7mth old cheerios, when I haven't looked at the ingredients to see if that's ok (and her doctor had said she wasn't ready for solids), or using disposable diapers when my husband demands that we use cloth etc.
This conversation happened on Wednesday afternoon, on Thursday morning I contacted the counsellor to try and arrange to get the form signed and dated, but we've been playing phone tag and haven't actually sorted anything out.
On Friday morning the above mentioned friend called me and I told her what was going on and she tried to convince me that my now 8mth old doesn't actually need to be breastfed at church, despite it being usually over 3hrs between us leaving home and getting back home. My not yet 15lb 8mth old who was almost a month early and has oral issues that means solids really are only for experimentation and she's getting zero nutrition from them and who has had such issues switching between a bottle and breast that we haven't tried for 3mths because no situation of it being absolutely necessary has arisen.
I got an email from the pastor Friday afternoon saying I needed to make a decision and that he'd spoken to the elders and that they agreed I should sign the form.
I found it very discouraging that two men who don't know me at all, and I do mean that - one of them won't even say hello to me the other hasn't said anything beyond that, can come to such a decision so quickly without even speaking to me.
I'm feeling so distressed by the breastfeeding issue, that I need to know what the policy is on that because if that excludes me from church, I may write to the elders to explain why I disagree, but it's way too emotional for get entangled in right now. If I'm being excluded from the church because of breastfeeding then I can't really consider myself to be part of that church and thus there is no longer any need to deal with the other stuff.
So I responded accordingly, but the thought, prayer and time required to write the response means it got sent after the end of office hours.
My poor husband is stuck in the middle of all this, he thinks I should just sign and be done with it and deal with everything else later and continue to breastfeed in church in the mean time, but he wasn't in on that phone conversation, where the impression that I was given was that to do so would be just as much a crime and thus even if I did sign I'd still be subject to church discipline.
I've had a chance to read a couple of theologians and check the bible references on church discipline, so it seems it has too purposes, to protect the purity of the church (i.e. it looks bad if you keep letting someone committing incest to be part of the church) and to restore the believer from a state of sin (being removed from the church should make them see incest is a sin).
The very few non christians I've shared this with have said how uncaring the pastor is and how on earth does he still have a job as a pastor, so it seems like to them that the purity of the church is compromised, by him! So that leaves my restoration, which is rather confusing, I know I'm a sinner, I know I have a hard time with submission, but I don't see that precise obedience to the demand of the pastor is required, or that if so it should be done without question, the bible reminds us that our leaders are not infallible and also tells leaders to shepherd and be humble, not controlling and bossy. If the church were to decide that to sign and date a disclosure form when asked to sign without a date is a sin worthy of excommunication, I really would worry that they are turning into a cult.
This hurts so much because I care so much I don't want to just cut my ties and leave because I care and it seems that the direction they are headed is dangerous, plus right now my husband would stay in the church and considers me in a very similar light to the pastor, he's demonstrating that his loyalties lie with the pastor not with me. I don't think marriage partners should just church hop together when one is unhappy but that he considers me so sinful that he views the pastor as perfect that he almost seems to be saying that my sins (which are many) justify the pastor sinning against me, that when he has yelled at me, or mocked me that I deserved it.
Life is hard, but God is amazing, this post has been long, well done if you got this far!
The pastor of the new church is a former youth pastor and then preaching pastor of a 3rd service at the parent church, the way things were structured there, that meant he wasn't an elder. The elders of the new church are two of the elders from the parent church and the three of them form the elder board. Currently the new church doesn't have any formal membership, some of us were members of the parent church, some were "just" regular attenders of that third service and others have come from either other churchs or are new to the area. So we're a mixed bag, believe in adult baptism, but it's not mentioned on the website and only gets mentioned when a child is dedicated or in the run up to the one baptism service that the church has held. The existance of the church was made public in Sept 08 and our first service away from the parent church was in March 09, so we're pretty new!
This has coincided with a rough time in our lives, I got pregnant in Sept 08, an unplanned 3rd child after a gap when we'd just decided we were definitely done! I had severe PPD with our first, but not our 2nd, but had a horrific delivery, which was very disabling for the first couple of years and I was only 10mths past surgery to fix one of the many injuries.
I think we were actually both thrilled to be blessed in this way, we'd probably never have tried to make it happen, but she was much wanted, but that doesn't take away all the practical difficulties and unfortunately I began to get depressed during the pregnancy and probably should have got help sooner than I did. Our baby was born in May 09 and my depression continued and failed to respond to treatment, I had bad reactions to some medications, including one that landed me on a cardiac ward for 2 days. Finally in late November we found one that began to help, I feel amazing compared to how I was, but the reality is whilst I wouldn't say I feel sad, I have pretty much every other symptom to some extent.
To the outside world, it almost seems forgotten, 2mths ago I couldn't hold a conversation, cried most of the time and couldn't give eye contact, so the fact I can actually talk with some eye contact is a dramatic change, which meant I could engage in our marital counselling sessions, which had begun on the advice of the pastor, our marriage does need help, mostly because I have been so ill which has put an immense amount of strain on DH, he's almost been a single parent whilst holding down a full time job with a zombie in the house that also needed to be fed.
Rightly or wrongly, after I was actually able to engage in a couple of sessions, I expressed to the pastor that I didn't think this counsellor was working, without even listening to why, he instantly asked me to sign a disclosure agreement so he could talk with the counsellor and he could make that decision.
My instant response was rebellion, no, you aren't going to make that kind of decision for me and I'm not doing that.
Christmas stopped the pastor from following up this issue, but I was still meeting with my psychiatrist and therapist, so was able to talk through possibilites. So when I got a message from the pastor's assistant trying to schedule a meeting but also requesting that the form be signed before even scheduling it, I responded that I'd sign, but not undated and that I'd prefer to hold a conference call, which she responded was not what he'd asked and to let her know when I'd done what was asked.
We saw the marriage counsellor again this week and the three of us agreed that we weren't getting anywhere and we should try someone else. At that stage I was at the point of thinking I'd sign the form, still dated, but let them talk without me, but in that session my husband indicated that his expectation would be that the pastor would then talk to the new counsellor before we even met with him, which I knew would cause me issues in opening up to a new counsellor, so we left without me having signed the form.
I contacted the pastor to let him know how things stood and he told me that I'd manipulated the situation to avoid signing the form, by which stage I'd realised that I could still sign and date the form and if a new counsellor accepted information about us before meeting with us then that would be a clear sign that that person wouldn't work for me, so I said I would do that, signing and dating doesn't prevent me signing another form without a date in future, but doing that currently when I know the law allows me to revoke it at any stage and that I would intend to do that would make it dishonest to sign it without a date.
He said he would discuss the issue with the elders with a view to removing me from the church, if I couldn't obey is exact command then that was the appropriate thing to do, he also mentioned in further demonstration of my lack of submission that I was breastfeeding in church without a cover, when I knew that it made some people uncomfortable and that I was not friends with a person he wanted me to be friends with, which was funny in a way because in no way are we not still friends and any cooling has been mutual. I think what he meant was that I was not following her exact command/opinion, which I'm not, but then her exact command would include offering my then 7mth old cheerios, when I haven't looked at the ingredients to see if that's ok (and her doctor had said she wasn't ready for solids), or using disposable diapers when my husband demands that we use cloth etc.
This conversation happened on Wednesday afternoon, on Thursday morning I contacted the counsellor to try and arrange to get the form signed and dated, but we've been playing phone tag and haven't actually sorted anything out.
On Friday morning the above mentioned friend called me and I told her what was going on and she tried to convince me that my now 8mth old doesn't actually need to be breastfed at church, despite it being usually over 3hrs between us leaving home and getting back home. My not yet 15lb 8mth old who was almost a month early and has oral issues that means solids really are only for experimentation and she's getting zero nutrition from them and who has had such issues switching between a bottle and breast that we haven't tried for 3mths because no situation of it being absolutely necessary has arisen.
I got an email from the pastor Friday afternoon saying I needed to make a decision and that he'd spoken to the elders and that they agreed I should sign the form.
I found it very discouraging that two men who don't know me at all, and I do mean that - one of them won't even say hello to me the other hasn't said anything beyond that, can come to such a decision so quickly without even speaking to me.
I'm feeling so distressed by the breastfeeding issue, that I need to know what the policy is on that because if that excludes me from church, I may write to the elders to explain why I disagree, but it's way too emotional for get entangled in right now. If I'm being excluded from the church because of breastfeeding then I can't really consider myself to be part of that church and thus there is no longer any need to deal with the other stuff.
So I responded accordingly, but the thought, prayer and time required to write the response means it got sent after the end of office hours.
My poor husband is stuck in the middle of all this, he thinks I should just sign and be done with it and deal with everything else later and continue to breastfeed in church in the mean time, but he wasn't in on that phone conversation, where the impression that I was given was that to do so would be just as much a crime and thus even if I did sign I'd still be subject to church discipline.
I've had a chance to read a couple of theologians and check the bible references on church discipline, so it seems it has too purposes, to protect the purity of the church (i.e. it looks bad if you keep letting someone committing incest to be part of the church) and to restore the believer from a state of sin (being removed from the church should make them see incest is a sin).
The very few non christians I've shared this with have said how uncaring the pastor is and how on earth does he still have a job as a pastor, so it seems like to them that the purity of the church is compromised, by him! So that leaves my restoration, which is rather confusing, I know I'm a sinner, I know I have a hard time with submission, but I don't see that precise obedience to the demand of the pastor is required, or that if so it should be done without question, the bible reminds us that our leaders are not infallible and also tells leaders to shepherd and be humble, not controlling and bossy. If the church were to decide that to sign and date a disclosure form when asked to sign without a date is a sin worthy of excommunication, I really would worry that they are turning into a cult.
This hurts so much because I care so much I don't want to just cut my ties and leave because I care and it seems that the direction they are headed is dangerous, plus right now my husband would stay in the church and considers me in a very similar light to the pastor, he's demonstrating that his loyalties lie with the pastor not with me. I don't think marriage partners should just church hop together when one is unhappy but that he considers me so sinful that he views the pastor as perfect that he almost seems to be saying that my sins (which are many) justify the pastor sinning against me, that when he has yelled at me, or mocked me that I deserved it.
Life is hard, but God is amazing, this post has been long, well done if you got this far!
