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"No Medical Benefits"? - Page 3

post #41 of 87
At the risk of making the OP even more defensive....

.....are you really going to review ALL the studies on circumcision? Over the past 150 years? Even the ones that "show" that circumcision cures epilepsy? And other diseases that we now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that circumcision has nothing to do with? But really, how are you going to distinguish between legitimate studies and illegitimate ones?

And speaking of confirmation bias, how are you going to determine whether and how the pre-existing biases of circumcision researchers affected the study design and outcomes of the studies? Look at the history of circumcision research - it's all about confirmation bias and the search for a rationale for this surgery. In fact, I strongly recommend you read David Gollaher's book on the history of circumcision, paying special attention to the history of circumcision and circumcision research in this country.

And which other body parts are you going to conduct this cost-benefit analysis for to determine whether they should be removed? I'm serious. What makes the foreskin so unique in its superfluousness that it, and it alone, is worthy of consideration for amputation?

And are you going to conduct a similar analysis for your daughter about the benefits of removing the hood of her clitoris and labia? Those are the analogous parts on a woman. Would you want to have your clitoral hood and labia removed? Without your consent?

Speaking of research, you will be interested to read what is lost in circumcision (with references, of course):

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

http://research.cirp.org/

http://research.cirp.org/links1.html

Finally, I submit you have another area for research. You need to research the ethical aspects of cutting off a necessary and important part of your son's body when no immediate medical reason presents itself. Why do you have the right to make this decision about your son's body? What other body parts do you have the right to cut off? Where does your son's right to bodily integrity begin, if not with his genitals? Obviously my questions could be termed biased, but I believe you need to think about your fundamental premise that you have the ethical right to decide whether to cut your son's genitals.
post #42 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by SaveTheWild
Jenna and AnnMarie --

again, thanks for the insight from experience. Always helpful. (though I assume neither of you had sample sizes large enough to really call it a scientific study. LOL)
LOL Not that many, but enough to know what's best.

BTW, you and your husband can know a little of what it's like to have sex with an intact man/being intact. He could restore his foreskin. But for a quicker way, there is a thing that he can wear that's like a sock that keeps the glans protected so it's softer and it helps with sensitivity a little. It's not the same thing, but it can give him an idea of what was lost when he was circed.
post #43 of 87

Re: Re: Re: "No Medical Benefits"?

Quote:
Originally posted by SaveTheWild
Of course I would, because that would be the most honest and correct thing to say. I would say "here are the benefits" and "here are the risks" and one outweighs the other. Obviously in those examples the costs grossly outweigh the benefits, so you don't do it. Simple as that.
I think it should be obvious that when you cut off part of the penis the risks grossly outweigh any possible benefits. I think that's true of any healthy body part.
post #44 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Quirky
At the risk of making the OP even more defensive....

.....are you really going to review ALL the studies on circumcision? Over the past 150 years? Even the ones that "show" that circumcision cures epilepsy? And other diseases that we now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that circumcision has nothing to do with? But really, how are you going to distinguish between legitimate studies and illegitimate ones?


I am actually not feeling that defensive, so no need to worry about that.

nope I certainly am not going to review all the medical studies over the past 150 years. couldn't do it, and, as you point out, medical science has progressed, and other studies have shown the earlier studies to be wrong. I will do what I can to get as broad a perspective as possible. I certainly don't think that anyone should avoid doing independent research simply because they wouldn't be able to look at everything. There is obviously a balance that has to be made.

Quote:
And speaking of confirmation bias, how are you going to determine whether and how the pre-existing biases of circumcision researchers affected the study design and outcomes of the studies? Look at the history of circumcision research - it's all about confirmation bias and the search for a rationale for this surgery.


Yup, that is always the rub! It's really hard to know, so I will do what I can. Obviously gettin insight from people about what the strengths and weaknesses of a particular study are is helpful, then I can use those opinions to go back and look at the study and make my own determination as to whether they apply. Of couse it is a flawed system, but everything is. I sincerely believe it is better than placing the decision in the hands of someone else which is what would happen if I relied too heavily on the opinion of one "expert."

Quote:
And which other body parts are you going to conduct this cost-benefit analysis for to determine whether they should be removed? I'm serious. What makes the foreskin so unique in its superfluousness that it, and it alone, is worthy of consideration for amputation?


I guess my only honest answer here is that I would do an analysis on anything that was brought to my attention, if there was reason to believe that there may truely be a benefit that would outweigh the respective costs.
I think a lot of people see "cost/benefit analysis" as a bad thing. It isn't. It should be considered a good way to make important decisions. The key is to make sure you take into account as many factors as you can. If you did a cost benefit analysis on only the medical issues and left out the psycological, or sexual or ethical, you would only be getting part of the picture.


Quote:
I submit you have another area for research. You need to research the ethical aspects of cutting off a necessary and important part of your son's body when no immediate medical reason presents itself.
Yep, of course that is a factor that will play heavily into the decision. To do otherwise would be dishonest.
post #45 of 87

This got longer than anticipated- sorry

If you research the frequency of UTIs in circ'd vs intact males- from what I remember (and I'm definitely the keeper of the facts and links here, I'll leave that to the others) the circ'd males DO have a SLIGHTLY lower risk of UTIs, but even with the higher risk of intact boys, girls still have a MUCH, MUCH higher rates of UTIs. (I'm sorry, I don't have stats, don't remember where I saw that, but you said you're researching, so something to check.) I've had several UTIs throughout my life, dd has had 2 and she's only 3, ds has had none, he's almost 2 and intact.

Also, when researching the pain after, someone mentioned adults get pain meds and babies don't, which is true. Another major difference btw adults and infants is adults are potty trained and don't have an open would sitting in urine and feces for extended periods of time. (This was one of the major things that turned me off to circ- in addition to seeing the video. After the video, any medical 'benefits' are really out the window.) I couldn't imagine #1- having an open wound in urine (every time I peed after I had an episiotomy, I cried for a week- it hurt that much, even with advil for pain) and #2-having to wipe poop off that same open wound.

I've also read (someone else can back me up with links, if needed) that circing a baby takes about 1/3 of the penis off. That's a lot of skin, not just a little 'snip'. I've seen 2 circ'd baby penis' and about 3 intact penis' (including ds) since ds was born and the circ'd babies do look a lot smaller. Now, for me to see ds intact wasn't strange b/c before he was born, I had never seen a baby penis at all.

When I was in the hospital after dd was born, they had a 'caring for your newborn' channel where they showed how to care for a circ. I saw how awful that wound looked and knew I couldn't do it.

Now, what you've said of there being NO medical benefits may be true, but the risks are much greater, IMO and the medical 'benefits' are just grasping at straws. Again, if circ'd men are lowering the risk of penile cancer, we should do mastectomies on all girls b/c breast cancer is a much more common form of cancer.

Not to mention, lots of men in our generation are circ'd, even if their own dads aren't- b/c the babies were taken and circ'd without consent. (My brother wasn't going to be circ'd, but they did it first- got 'consent' later after convincing my mom how much better it was-maybe to cover their own butts; my uncle (who is in his 40s) was circ'd when he got his tonsils out- again, without consent.)

On the sexual issue- someone here had a link showing the countries with the highes circ rate also has the highest rate of Viagra use, intact countries have a very low rate of Viagra use. Something else to think about and research.
post #46 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by SaveTheWild
re: the Fleiss book. Yeah, he seems to be the person people around this board rely on a lot. I will read the book to get his perspective, but again, I won't rely on it unduly. I imagine the "goal" of his book is to "prove" that circumcision is bad. That's fine for him to do, and it will likely be a good way to get a challending perspective on the issue, but I certainly won't rely on it without doing a lot of challenging of his theories.


I'm glad you'll be reading it with a critical mind. But, mostly, I'm just glad you'll be reading it. He started out performing circs himself. But the situation mattered to him, so he did a lot of research. He ends the book with nearly 50 pages of source notes, so it's certainly not just his opinion.

BTW, I can't put the Goldman book down (Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma . It explores the psychological issues (of infants, parents, doctors, society) surrounding circ. He quotes a lot of research, as well.

For me, it boiled down to genital integrity--my son deserved to keep his body the way he was born. He didn't need to go through surgery merely for being born male. If a reproductive area (like the penis) were so problematic, I think natural selection would have killed us off long ago!

Sometimes our discussions around here get kind of tense. I find that unfortunate. I sense that the tension has put you on the defensive, understandably.

A previous poster (Quirky, I think) brought up a good point -- why would circ be any more of a legitimate "cure" for AIDS and UTIs than for masturbation, epilepsy, and mental illness? Perhaps our current fears drive the equation more than anything else? (Which is something that Goldman explores in depth.)

Here's another thought--you don't have to circ on day 1. You can wait six months, or longer. You can take as much time as you need/want to research this issue and feel confident about your decision. After all, if you circ, it can't be undone.

Kind of off-topic: Goldman mentions that Blue Shield insurance covered the procedure of female genital mutilation until 1977!! Yikes!
post #47 of 87
Thread Starter 
Shelbean91-

thanks. those are all very interesting issues to think about, and are exactly in line with the stuff I have found so far say. Yeah, and the pain stuff makes sense with respect to the diaper situation. (though I still need to look into the issue of post-infancy circumcision to see what the complication are -- though again this would only be an issue if I determined that it "should be" done, at that point my next question would be "when"?)

Somemama --
thanks to you too. I think "genital integrity" is definitely an important factor as well.

Quote:
Sometimes our discussions around here get kind of tense. I find that unfortunate. I sense that the tension has put you on the defensive, understandably.


With respect to the "defensiveness" issue... I am really not a particularly sensitive person, and I quite enjoy healthy robust debates and discussions... I do get turned off by people who approach a situation in high attack mode, and come out swining with person attacks. I think it ends up stunting healthy debate more often than anything else, and resulting in a loss of information flow (e.g. I think its natural to be more receptive of a point when the person is making it calmly and logically rather than when they are "yelling" it at you and making angry personal comments.) It doesn't really upset me personally (well sometimes it does LOL) ... mostly it just disappoints me. a wasted opportunity for meaningful discussion.
post #48 of 87
Quote:
Kind of off-topic: Goldman mentions that Blue Shield insurance covered the procedure of female genital mutilation until 1977!! Yikes!
I thought the last FGM in the US was done in 1948! (According to Eve Ensler, Vagina Monologues).

I hear it's traditional in catholic families in Mexico to make an incision on the clitoris in the shape of a cross. Illegal in the US now, but maybe that's what was done in the 70s?

Now that I think about it, the one in 1948 was a complete removal of the clitoris, on a 5-year-old girl.
post #49 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by Greaseball
I thought the last FGM in the US was done in 1948! (According to Eve Ensler, Vagina Monologues).

Nope, wrong. In 1991, 8 FGM's were performed.

Also another thought to SaveTheWild-- I'm not sure exactly what you have against Fleiss?
post #50 of 87
Women still have this done in this country, but voluntarily. Many believe it increases sensation.

:Puke circlist: http://www.circlist.com/femalecirc/anatfemale.html

"Labiaplasty

Below is the text of an article, New hot cosmetic surgery for women, from the Toronto Globe and Mail, Tuesday, 10 November 1998 by Krista Foss, Health Reporter

At Dr. Robert Stubbs's office, they call it the Toronto Trim.

For the past 12 years, women have come to him from all over North America to have their labia minora -- the flaps of skin that form the lips of a woman's genitalia and surround the clitoris and vaginal opening -- reduced.

It's not a cosmetic alteration that ranks up there in popularity with breast augmentation, but recently Dr. Stubbs has been performing the surgery more than ever -- as often as once a month."

Be warned there is a before and after picture on the bottom of the page.

Here's another link: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/se...hancement.html
post #51 of 87
I did read of a procedure a few years ago for women that was really close to a circ. The hood of the clitoris was removed, and the reasoning was that it would make the clitoris more accessible for easier orgasm.

It made the clitoris so sensitive that it could not be touched, and then after it was no longer painful it lost sensation. It must be what happens to penises.

I think I read this in Cosmopolitan, though...
post #52 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by Greaseball
I did read of a procedure a few years ago for women that was really close to a circ. The hood of the clitoris was removed, and the reasoning was that it would make the clitoris more accessible for easier orgasm.

It made the clitoris so sensitive that it could not be touched, and then after it was no longer painful it lost sensation. It must be what happens to penises.

I think I read this in Cosmopolitan, though...
Yup, it's true. Check out the second link in my last post.

:Puke Go to yahoo and do a search for "Dr. Pamela Loftus photos."
post #53 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by somemama
Also another thought to SaveTheWild-- I'm not sure exactly what you have against Fleiss?
Nothing at all. I would be treating any expert the same way -- with critical thought and not swallowing their opiniion as fact without doing my own research. I am sure he has a lot of good things to say.
post #54 of 87
Quote:
After the stress of single or multiple childbirth, vaginal tissues tend to lose their tone, often resulting in an increase in the width of the vaginal canal. During sexual intercourse, this added width can result in less friction, and decreased pleasure for both partners. Even with regular exercise, including Kegal exercise, vaginal tone may not improve.
Why can't the man just have surgery to make his penis bigger?!

OK, there is something seriously wrong with this woman:
Quote:
My GYN was hesitant to do it and I had to tell her several times how much trouble I was having reaching orgasm during intercourse because I had such a long hood. Finally I said I would do it myself if she refused.
Quote:
As far as the hypersensitivity issue, it's more a matter of getting used to the feeling and mentally putting it out of your mind until you have sex.
Why should any part of your body have to "be put out of your mind"?

And this one:
Quote:
I think that all women should consider have their hoods removed as it would aid in cleanliness of the area and grreatly improving orgasm!
No thanks!
post #55 of 87
Wild... Two things...


I agree with much of what you have said about research- to go to the source.. good. Now- what I want to know is how you are trying to do this without any firsthand knowledge of normal unaltered male anatomy- how are you going to factor that into your research? You are not in a position to be objective if you are trying to compare facts about the known to the unknown.

Next- circling all the way back to the original post and the question of BENEFITS.... sure there is some medical evidence that has (through criminally assaulting babies without their consent, pain relief, or the standards of scientific study) been gathered over time which have bolstered some theories that what had been done to those children might be thought of as "beneficial"

(Would you support cutting the genitals of hundreds of thousands of females to study the differences between them and the uncut females? Would a scientist be allowed to do that to a girl? Could they conduct studies on her pain experience of the non-beneficial cutting? Measure her blood cortisol levels and the pitch of her screams?)

Lets just grab ONE of these "benefits" let's think about UTI in the first year of life. Maybe circumcision does reduce the incidence of UTI in circumcised boys during the first year. (I'm not entirely convinced that the medical evidence is sound- I think the study was done with very poor controls and I think the protective effects of breastfeeding must ALSO be controled for...) but... let's just say this is a known benefit.

#1- it's a statisical benefit... not a personal one... the LOSS... that's personal. If circumcisd boys have a lower incidence and intact boys hardly get it- you have 99 boys who lost some really nice sexual anatomy in order to weed out the one boy who would have gotten a UTI because he was not circumcised. on the other hand in the intact group.. you have all of the boys keeping their sexual anatomy and one of them getting a UTI...


Not all the boys get that benefit... only the ONE who would have gotten the UTI... and we will never know who he is will we? so you are gambling against your child- and it is going to cost him... win or loose in that benefit lottery- they all lose a substantial portion of sex organ. In fact- come to think of it- you can leave your kid intact and 99 out of 100 times- he will not have been the one who was going to get the UTI anyway- so he can still benefit in a public health standpoint from the UTI boy being circumcised - yet all the while retaining his own anatomy. The benefit to the UTI boy is not dependent on 99 other boys being circumcised... only on UTI boy being circumcised. That's what I did with my son- I didn't play that lottery with his sex organ and that other kid either did or didn't get that UTI regardless. LOL (don't bother)

It's not that ALL circumcised boys have better urinary tract health... in fact- if we step beyond that neonatal period and advance a few years to the potty training time- we will discover that a very large portion of the circumcised boys will be having urinary problems due to the fact thy were circumcised. As well as the fact that the whole UTI incidence balances and the intact and circumcised boys are equally likely to get one.

Now- when the AAP weighs the risk vs benefit... they think- we circumcise 100 and one of them is benefited by the fact that he does not get a uti that year... but we also have some complication in that group of 100... maybe a botch, a revision, a bleeding incident... - overall- the benefit dos not outweigh the risk- we can't recomend it because the risk/benefit is so balanced...

They don't give any weight to the value of the anatomy lost do they?

But you can't see that can you?- because- back to my first point- you have a imbedded bias toward not acknowledging the value of this anatomy because to you it is the unknown. I's like an antiques dealer who knows how to read the marks on a vase... without the knowledge- you simply can't begin to know the value. If you don't have the anatomy- you can't be alert to pinpoint the imbedded bias. Regardless of your lofty ideas about your research ability... you are still just guessing when it comes to male anatomy.

The only RISK they (american medical societies) calculate is if you start bleeding uncontrollably while they cut your valueable sexual anatomy off... they don't count the anatomy do they?

They can't can they?

They can't turn around after years of violating men as babies and say- "you should remember to consider the important errogenous value and sexual function of this anatomy when looking at these potential benefits of cutting it off... (oooh ummm awkward moment huh?) oh...ahhh yess... I forgot- you can't do that can you?... because we cut it off you a few decades ago... ummm well yeah, sorry about that...we are turning over a new leaf and we hope you will too- no hard feelings eh bud... it's all water under the bridge!

as for a study- here's one- a risk benefit analysis of the UTI benefit--- and without giving the foreskin ANY value- (yes- this scientist also fell into that blank) they still can't see that circucmsion would be worth cuting into the genital flesh of hundreds of thousands of boys to potentially avoid UTI.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/chessare/


Love Sarah
post #56 of 87
Excellent post Sarah! You should save that one and bring it back out from time to time.
post #57 of 87
Quote:
There are definitely benefits with removing brests,
But do you think there are benefits to removing breasts in INFANCY on the CHANCE that an individual MIGHT develop breast cancer?

Would you advocate for the removal of the breasts of an infant from a family with high cancer "risk", knowing that even high RISK is not a GUARANTEE of developing breast cancer?
post #58 of 87
Just an aside- although I adore him... I don't like Paul Fleiss' book all that much- when I read a book on circumcision I try to read it as if I don't know anything about intactivism and male anatomy.

I read the book as if I am a pregnant girl from Ohio who has a kooky hippy friend who gave her a book.

Fleiss' book, regardless of how true or how much I agree with him, reads like unsubstiantiated (regardless if it actually is proven) propaganda and fear tactics.

Tring to put myself in the shoes of Savethewild... that book would do nothing for me. Its feels like snake oil.

The book I recomend is the Gollaher Book because it helps to frame the modern decision in the historical context... help us to understand our bias, our inability to be subjective... looks at us human like bugs under a microscope... "let's look at those human beings... see them mutilate the sex organ of their babies... I wonder why they - across history... across cultural divides... always return to their genitals with knives..."


Love Sarah
post #59 of 87
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarah

The book I recomend is the Gollaher Book
What's the name of it? Is it a book that someone that's unlikely to read anything about parenting (Maybe anything at all for that matter.) might read? Is it something you could give for a baby shower gift?
post #60 of 87
Circumcision: A History of the World's Most Contraversial Surgery

Though it's interesting one of the the Amazon reviewers found it too "fringe" :
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