Hib, Prevnar and the vacuum

[Tiffany_in_ga]

Just to clarify this in my head......

Because of serotype replacement and all that goes along with that argument, there would be no sense in getting JUST Hib or JUST Prevnar, right? You'd either get both or neither.

Right? From what I've read it seems if you get JUST Hib, you're opening the door for the yuckies that Prevnar supposedly prevents. And vice versa. So you'd have to get both (and still be susceptible to the strains not in the vaxes)....or get neither and trust in the body's natural flora balance. Am I understanding this correctly?

[Marnica]

well the way I understand it it is yes and no

The strains that are stepping up and filling voids (becoming more prevelant) due to the use of HIB and Prevnar are becoming more prevelant across the board. These strains not covered in the avaliable vaccines are more prevlant due to mass vaccination with HIB first and then as a result of that Prevar (7 strains) and now as a result of that they are coming up with prevnar (13 strains). I suppose you could look at it the way you are describing, but the effects are being seen on a massive scale, not really an individual one like you are describing. So lets say you get the HIB vax only. That doesn't mean that your child is more susceptible to the 7 strains in prevnar, they are already more suceptible to strains not covered in any vax...we all are. So No I don't think it has to be all or nothing.
I think i have explained what I am trying to say very poorly but right now my brain is fried. Hopefully you know what I'm trying to say!

[stacey05]

I have always heard it the way Marnica is explaining. BUT, I recently read a few studies that explained it differently. It actually had percentages of vaccinated vs controls (non vaccinated) and it showed a higher prevelance (sp?) of non vaccine strains in the vaccinated vs the non vaccinated. According to this study, it did seem that the vaccinated were at bigger risk than the non vaccinated (hib/prevnar) of the strains not in the vaccines. I will see if I can find it again.

[stacey05]

ok, I'm running out the door, but I found this article below. It is not the article I mentioned above, but it is interesting and from the CDC, no less.

>Similarly, if serotype replacement occurs and vaccinated persons become more likely to carry nonvaccine serotypes, the exposure of unvaccinated persons to these serotypes will increase. As a result of these indirect effects, strain replacement will be magnified in communities where large numbers of persons are vaccinated. <

This kinda says what Marnica was saying and what I was saying, although it isn't specifically about hib and prevnar. I also found this:


*

From this last paragraph, I gathered that some think that vaccinating with hib can lower the immune system and make a way for others to move in or just creating the vacuum for more types to take over. This would make unvaccinated more likely to come into contact with these types as well. Does this make sense? These last few paragraphs were from this website:

http://vran.org/about-vaccines/speci...igger-picture/

Anyway, this is probably all jumbled and not sure it explains anything anyway..got a 2 yo on my lap and am heading out the door. I hope others chime in here!! It can be so confusing!

[Tiffany_in_ga]

Yes! It can be so confusing. Very interesting snippets though...thanks for looking those up for me. It makes sense that the population at large is at increased risk from the "super" strains. But then it does make you wonder if vax status places the individual at more or less risk....sheesh....makes my brain hurt trying to sift through it all.

[an_domhan]

Originally Posted by Tiffany_in_ga

Because of serotype replacement and all that goes along with that argument, there would be no sense in getting JUST Hib or JUST Prevnar, right? You'd either get both or neither.

Your question is complicated, because the host is crucial to the outcome. Since these two organisms do have an inhibitory effect on each other, vaccinating with one or the other will create a problem in bacterial populations (and potential disharmony). Vaccinating with both - will bring a set of different complications (staph).... Since these organisms are not invasive in every host they occupy, seems it might be worthwhile to find out why they become opportunistic in some people.

Inside Vaccines has a good series on serotype replacement and another on interspecies competition. Hib is approaching prevaccine estimates, there is just a little bit of obfuscation surrounding typeable and nontypeable strains. The demographic has also shifted as it relates to complications etc...Prevnar has its own set of issues in my mind (the studies for example), replacement disease being one of them.

Only in science, can you create a problem with vaccines, shift the demographic for complications, scare the public into vaccinating to protect the new demographic, and then ultimately blame non-vaccinators for epidemics.

I'd certainly hold anything Hilary Butler says or publishes in high regard.

[writteninkursive]

My biggest regret in life so far is allowing them to vax my oldest DD with Prevnar in 2006. She was 6 months old, was given 3 doses of Prevnar in 6 months, and after the first one, she no longer said "Mama" or "Dada". Just stopped talking, cold turkey. I thought it was odd (though I knew nothing of vaccines at the time), asked her ped why she had stopped saying words as essential to a baby as Mama and Dada. The ped said "Sometimes babies get bored with words they've mastered and move on to new ones." She didn't move on. And she wasn't bored with us. From there on, it's been a battle to get her language skills back on track (they still aren't). She had begun talking originally so early. After she stopped, she didn't start again for a very long time. She is 4 years old now, and is in speech therapy with extremely high receptive language skills and very low annunciation skills. So she can understand it, but can't express it very well. It's been such a struggle. Watch out for Prevnar. Bad news.