Anyone with a degree in Psychology? Question about UP and Montessori

[twinergy]

I wasn’t sure where to post this question, Mods pleas move it as you see appropriate. I was discussing Alfie Kohn’s Ideas with somebody that has a degree in Psychology and got the response
1.That behavior modification is very effective in humans and there are several studies to back it up.
2.Montessori education is based on behavior modification and is proven (by studies) to raise IQ 10 points
3.Without behavior modification we are back to Individualism.

I didn’t know how to respond, how could I when I’ve only read a couple books and obviously lack any credentials. It got me thinking that there are probably lots of studies out there some would discredit Kohn others would back him up. It could be argued that he hand selected studies to prove his point while ignoring others that would discredit him. Anyway I recommended Hold On to Your Kids because it is based on attachment theory and it seemed to go over well.

[One_Girl]

I don't have a degree in psychology, but my dd's friend has a dad who is a school psychologist and they decided against Montessori because there wasn't much to back up its effectiveness and they didn't like the atmosphere in the Montessori school they looked at.

[justKate]

twinergy, you might want to cross-post in the Learning forums--there are probably people there with more knowledge of the principles of Montessori. Your thread piqued my interest....

[sapphire_chan]

Sounds like the pet theories of one of mom's psych profs back in the late 60s. She was still complaining about having to write BS for the A when I was a teen in the 90s.

[EviesMom]

I've never really seen Kohn to say that behavior modification isn't effective with humans, just that its not the right way to raise compassionate adults. Just as with behavior modification for an animal, if you overuse something like a particular reward or punishment, they get used to it and each separate one doesn't have as much effect (like stickers and prizes for every single thing at school).

And it doesn't guide the child to the human characteristic you would like them to have as adults (so they might not pull someone's hair when they know they're being observed, but they also are unlikely to help someone who is crying and they're not being observed). If what you wanted to teach was compassionate behavior and kindness to others, behaviorist techniques are not so helpful. If all you wanted to teach was not to pull hair when mom's watching, it'll probably do fine.

(I use behaviorist stuff for myself, like rewards for getting to the gym for my early morning class-if I go to the gym, I can get a coffee treat after; if not, I just have plain coffee. It's effective, but I'm only trying to build a habit for myself, not develop a lasting trait.)

[twinergy]

EviesMom, I had said that Kohn claims "behavior modification doesn't really work," and I'm pretty sure that is a quote out of context. (I don't have time to find the page where I read it.) I will be more careful in the future.

[GuildJenn]

I'm not sure where you read that Montessori is behaviourist but I'd be interested in seeing the link or source for that.

Our experience of our local Montessori is that it's actually MUCH LESS behaviourist than a traditional elementary school. Here's a quote from Maria Montessori herself: "The greatest sign of success for a teacher . . . is to be able to say: 'The children are now working as if I did not exist.' "

Kids are not praised for completing their work; there are no formal grades; completing a work just leads you to the next work; kids can choose what they want to focus on that day. Here's a link that seems in line with our school: http://www.montessori.org/story.php?id=230

As for Montessori not being a proven method of education, actually it's one of the few that has been tested in a lottery-type setting: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...ref&siteid=sci

[twinergy]

It occured to me that I never really asked my question in my original post. But I do like the responses I got because I may have never asked those questions. Anyway I was wondering where Kohn actually fits into psychology. I know that he challenges behaviorism, but what does that make him?

I will also x-post to the education forum when I have time.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by twinergy

1. That behavior modification is very effective in humans and there are several studies to back it up.

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I've never really seen Kohn to say that behavior modification isn't effective with humans, just that its not the right way to raise compassionate adults. ... If all you wanted to teach was not to pull hair when mom's watching, it'll probably do fine.

yep. behavior modification works great for what it is. Most of us use it in small ways with ourselves and in minor ways with our kids. Setting a timer for 10 minutes to pick up toys and then *rewarding* the kids by reading a book is using behavoir modification. Running serveral errands and then celebrating with a Latte from Starbucks is basically the same thing. No harm done.

However, thinking for one minute that such simplistic techniques will help grow a child who loves learning, is compassionate, creative, hard working, etc. is absurd. It simple cannot help develop instrinsic motivation and abstract concepts such as "creativity" just don't translate.

2. Montessori education is based on behavior modification and is proven (by studies) to raise IQ 10 points

I don't know anything about montessori. There is an intersting book by Jane Healy about brain development (it's called Your Child's Growing Mind or something like that) and it talks about how rats with an enriched environment have bigger brains that rats living in a plain cage, but that no caged rats have brains as big as wild rats. It makes me wonder about the "raising IQ points by doing X" stuff. It is the equivelant of an enriched cage? It is like living in the wild?

What exactly are they comparing? Did they compare the Montessori kids to kids at home with a loving mom who was doing fun things with them? To underprivelaged kids with moms who really weren't available? To kids in different preschools? If so, what kind of preschools?

3. Without behavior modification we are back to Individualism.

There are always more than two options. That kind of black and white thinking is just silly. There's always the option of treating our children like humans who are wrothy of respect.

[twinergy]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

I'm not sure where you read that Montessori is behaviourist but I'd be interested in seeing the link or source for that.

Our experience of our local Montessori is that it's actually MUCH LESS behaviourist than a traditional elementary school. Here's a quote from Maria Montessori herself: "The greatest sign of success for a teacher . . . is to be able to say: 'The children are now working as if I did not exist.' "

Kids are not praised for completing their work; there are no formal grades; completing a work just leads you to the next work; kids can choose what they want to focus on that day. Here's a link that seems in line with our school: http://www.montessori.org/story.php?id=230

As for Montessori not being a proven method of education, actually it's one of the few that has been tested in a lottery-type setting: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...ref&siteid=sci

I didn't read it anywhere, I was told that by a another mom in a play group that has a BA in Psychology (behaviorist and education), was a Montessori preschool teacher, and is studying for a masters in education. I'm really just trying to make sense of it all because it seemed different from impressions about Montessori I had gotten here. But I really haven't read that much about it.

[Apple Girl]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

What exactly are they comparing? Did they compare the Montessori kids to kids at home with a loving mom who was doing fun things with them? To underprivelaged kids with moms who really weren't available? To kids in different preschools? If so, what kind of preschools?

They are comparing kids at a school choice public AMI Montessori school to kids in regular public school who also applied to be in the program. It's lottery style, so the kids are chosen randomly to be in the M school. So basically they are looking at a subset of parents who wanted their kids to be in the special Montessori program but lost in the lotto to those who won the lotto. This minimizes the effect of parents who don't care about their kids education or are just sending their kids to M because it's nice and private and they can afford it... minimizes economic bias and education bias.

They look at 5 and 12 year olds... so not preschool, but kindergarten and middle school age. They did not look at homeschoolers or unschoolers.

The biggest issue I had with the study was sample size (only about 50 kids in each group). Basically, the 5 year old M kids seem to have better reading skills, but both groups of kids (M and non-M) are about the same reading comprehension by age 12. The 12 year olds have more creative essays with more complex sentence structure. The biggest and most interesting difference to me was the view on justice and fairness - at both age levels there is a higher level of social justice in the Montessori kids, and M kids report their schools as being more positive, caring environments.

A really interesting study, for sure.

[Drummer's Wife]

I am a Montessorian, and a fan of Alfie Kohn. In fact, before my Montessori training I would have been a lot less receptive of his beliefs.

Basically, I will just say to GuildJenn's post, b/c I don't have much to add, and am posting from my phone.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Apple Girl

The biggest issue I had with the study was sample size (only about 50 kids in each group)...

A really interesting study, for sure.

Yeah - it's definitely just a pilot study. We didn't pick our school based on much other than gut feel but given the lack of research into most early childhood methods I found that one interesting.

twinergy - I'm not sure I'm impressed by that mom. But it is true that Montessori's not a trademarked name and lots of schools use it when really they're doing something else.

[twinergy]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

However, thinking for one minute that such simplistic techniques will help grow a child who loves learning, is compassionate, creative, hard working, etc. is absurd. It simple cannot help develop instrinsic motivation and abstract concepts such as "creativity" just don't translate.


I don't know anything about montessori. There is an intersting book by Jane Healy about brain development (it's called Your Child's Growing Mind or something like that) and it talks about how rats with an enriched environment have bigger brains that rats living in a plain cage, but that no caged rats have brains as big as wild rats. It makes me wonder about the "raising IQ points by doing X" stuff. It is the equivelant of an enriched cage? It is like living in the wild?


.

I am what Kohn would call a "Praise Junkie." I turned down a full schollarship to Dartmouth and chose to pay my own tuition at community college because I was afraid I wouldn't get all A's and be the best in my class. That is what I was always told I had to be to succeed. I have ZERO motivation unless the stream of praise continues. I have lost jobs because I just shut down in the absence of praise, yet I excell in environments where the praise flows.

I could care less about increasing my kid's IQ's; considering their Dad's IQ even with background (NM public schools) I'm sure they would do well on such tests. Big deal. There are plenty of unhappy, under achievers with exceptionally high IQ's. There are also many people that do school very well but aren't too good at life skills. I am really more interested raising motivated, creative, critical thinkers.

In my heart, I have always felt Kohn's theories and am happy somebody is challenging conventional thinking. Anyway enough with the . Thanks for listing to my rant.

[twinergy]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

twinergy - I'm not sure I'm impressed by that mom. But it is true that Montessori's not a trademarked name and lots of schools use it when really they're doing something else.

I guess I really haven't done her justice by bringing up this isolated incident. She is actually a great mom and an amazing person that has overcome a lot. I feel very fortunate to have her as a neighbor and our kids are the same age. I would even feel comfortable leaving my children in her care. She is very involved with her children and very caring, just IMO misinformed. There is another mom on our street that you can hear berating her children through closed windows. Our kids are also the same age but I don't associate with that mom if I don't have to. I would let her kids come to my house, but I wouldn't let mine go to her's. Most parents agree with behavior modification. I and my kids wouldn't have much of a social life if we used this as a factor in determining who our friends are.
I do try to enlighten people with the wonderful parenting advice I have learned from the MDC boards. I think it is important to get the word out there so I talk to parents I meet at the park, museum, in playgroups
and in other forums. Maybe it is a bit too early, because I am a beginner not a veteran. It is also difficult to suggest advice to someone who has so much education. I guess I would really like to sway this paticular mom to GD because I am so impressed with her.

[mamadebug]

I am Montessori certified and came close to a degree in psychology (switched to sociology). I have not read anything by Alfie Kohn. So, with that disclaimer.....

I think she is really misinformed about Montessori. She may have worked as a Montessori teacher - she may or may not have any training. If she has training, it may or may not be very authentic. The name Montessori isn't trade marked, so any one can open a Montessori school and any one can open a Montessori teacher training center.

Behavior modification, using punishments and rewards to modify behavior, is in contradiction with the Montessori philosophy. Montessori is against using praise or punishment because it is extrinsic motivation and one of the goals of Montessori is to promote intrinsic motivation - that a child is doing something because they want to, recognize it is right, etc, but not because of external forces.

Maybe one study somewhere was done that showed Montessori raised a small group of kid's IQ 10 points. But, I can promise that no credible Montessori school or organization is going to say that it is proven to raise a kids IQ 10 points.

[Spring Lily]

Does your friend have an advanced degree in psychology or just a Bachelor's? This argument doesn't sound like it is based on a thorough foundation of psychology.

Originally Posted by twinergy

2.Montessori education is based on behavior modification and is proven (by studies) to raise IQ 10 points
3.Without behavior modification we are back to Individualism.

I'm incredibly skeptical of point #2, first because studies are frequently misinterpreted. For example, if children with Montessori educations average 10 points higher on IQ tests, is that because of that school? Or it is only correlated with that school? Couldn't it also be because of cultural factors, like having really involved parents who research their children's education? Or maybe because of socioeconomic factors related to families who are able to afford Montessori education? The other reason I'm skeptical of it is that any psychologist knows that IQ is only one small facet of a person, and there are a lot of problems with that kind of testing in general. Almost every IQ test is skewed toward certain populations performing better than others, so those tests are biased instruments to begin with. They also test a very limited amount of information and skills about a person, for example they don't test a emotional or social skills, which are absolutely a part of a person's overall intelligence.

As for point #3, that is not sound reasoning. those aren't the only two options. In fact, the majority of behaviorists out there understand that the best approach to raising children is using a combination of approaches--it would be considered unethical to apply one method to all cases without considering if it is appropriate. Behaviorists must evaluate a child's situation before utilizing techniques because not every situation is appropriate for that method.

[SpiderMum]

While behavior modification might "work"....that doesn't mean it is what is best for my kid. There are plenty of things that produce results, but aren't things that I'm comfortable doing.

Same with the education aspect...IQ isn't the holy grail to me. My child's happiness is my ultimate goal.

[chaoticzenmom]

Originally Posted by twinergy

It occured to me that I never really asked my question in my original post. But I do like the responses I got because I may have never asked those questions. Anyway I was wondering where Kohn actually fits into psychology. I know that he challenges behaviorism, but what does that make him?

I will also x-post to the education forum when I have time.

He's probably more of a humanist than a behaviorist. There are lots of different models in psychology....although my mind is mostly coming up blank right now. There's the Psycho-analysis guy.(...blank again), who believed it was all related to your infancy and mother who would have a completely different take on psychology.

I think that AK is trying to get people to realize that you can change behavior by behavior modification, but it doesn't actually do anything for the person. I sometimes teach in a montessori style sunday school class. I'm really mixed on it. There's so much training of behavior and not as much interaction and integration as I'd like. The kids have their workspace and are taught to respect personal boundaries, but they're also not really interacting with each other. In another preschool class my children were in, the kids would all play together, drag out all of the toys and integrate the play...blocks would become car tracks and even the dollhouse and pegs could become active in the play.

In MOntesorri, it's one toy, one mat, one(maybe 2) kids and not much talking between kids or between the teacher and kids. It's the kids space and the teacher is more of a facilitator and observer.

I think behavior mofification can be useful too. If you want your students to respect when class starts, you have to start class on time. If you want your child to stop eating fingernails or sucking their thumb, behavior modification can work for that.

[twinergy]

After reading UP I felt like there was something missing. Then someone recommended reading Hold On to Your Kids and that really helped me fill in the blanks. Neufeld also suggests moving away from behavior modification, but recommends using attachment theory in its place. Although kohn talks about attachment he never mentions attachment theory in UP. In fact the title and main thesis, what matters is that a child feels unconditionally loved, would even suggest attachment theroy. I think UP would have been much better if he had