Where rights clash with politeness - how do you even begin to figure that one out

[annekh23]

This seems to be coming up a fair bit in the Hollister thread, problem is, we all have our own definitions of politeness.

Ideally we wouldn't need laws to protect us, but it seems that we do, but how on earth do you find a balance, particularly if you are talking to mums to be or something, between rights and politeness. Or if you are trying to remain diplomatic with someone you have an ongoing relationship with, so don't want to just parrot stuff about rights.

I suppose I'm asking how I can be a lactivist and be "nice", or does remaining "nice" get us nowhere in the end.

[boobs4milk]

i like to think that i am frank in my lactivist conversations, not 'nice' or 'mean'. i say things with emotion and belive in what i'm saying so it doesn't feel like parroting or shoveling, either. i used to be one of 'those' bf'ers-the ones that make the rest of bf land look like a haven for crazies! fact of the matter was that i was still a bit uncomfortable with bf and i needed to make myself feel better by beating up on others i feel horrible about it so i try very hard to be a lactivist and not a meanie while still looking and sounding like i know what i'm talking about!

[proudmomof4]

This is probably another example of setting boundaries, isn't it?

What often seems to work is being non-judgmental about other parents' choices on if or how long to breastfeed but still sticking to your guns. Alas, that's a lot easier said than done. In my family, I've been labeled the "eco gal" (for the reasons in my signature) - and it was always ok to verbally attack me for my homebirths, wearing my babies, breastfeeding (or more "starving my child") and whatever. On the other hand, I've recently read a lot about those evil "breastfeeding enthusiasts" or even "members of the breastfeeding mafia" who have nothing else to do than tell other women how to feed their children.
Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[haydn'smommy]

I think it boils down to something my mom always tried to teach me as a kid: tact. There is a way to get your point across without verbally slapping the other person across the face with it. In my current career I have to practice this a lot. I don't always agree with my patients' parenting choices, but as long as they aren't hurting their children, then I have to respect that that is their choice to make. Now I could fuss at them, belittled them, browbeat them over this and that, but I subscribe to the "get more flies with honey" technique. I think that there is something to be said for kindness, compassion, and love in how we approach these situations. I've been doing this in my daily life and practice and I've swayed many to my side and have lots of happy breastfed babies in my practice because of that.

[coffeegirl]

Good question. IMO, I think politeness should never have to be sacrificed. If it is, then you're doing something wrong.

Positive reinforcement works best, you know? For instance: being a happy, friendly, knowledgable and confident breastfeeding mom is going to be a far more effective testimony than being the kind of mom who is openly critical and judgemental about other mothers' parenting choices. Basically, I still believe that you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[crunchy_mommy]

I agree with the others but I also think it depends on the context.

If someone directly asks my opinion or seems very open & receptive to it, I absolutely will spout off information...

But if they haven't asked for it, or we don't have the kind of relationship that they'd be open to that kind of discussion, I prefer to keep everything relative to me. So I will "speak out" by modeling (i.e. NIP etc.) and/or by discussing the issue only as it relates to my child, my family. In other words, the same principles for having any "healthy argument" would apply: use "I" not "you" and "I have found that..." instead of "you should" and so forth.

Then there would be the situation where your personal rights are being threatened (i.e. someone asking you to cover up/BF elsewhere)... in that situation, I think being polite is less important than standing up for your rights. That's no excuse to be outright rude of course!! And I also prefer to pick & choose my battles. If I'm in a public place I'd be more likely to speak up, as I feel that other BF'ing moms would benefit from it. If I'm in a more private place (especially someone's home) then I would be more likely to just be accommodating (within reason) and move to another room or whatever.

I also prefer to use discretion with any situation... (e.g. the Hollister thread -- if my DS was super hungry and I wanted to use a fitting room, I would find somewhere else if there was a line... if I am discussing BF'ing with someone who is not open to hearing me, I am not going to go on & on and start lashing out at them)

[annekh23]

I wasn't thinking so much in politeness as how to communicate, though there was an element of that.

I was more thinking, using the example of the hollister incident, that I personally would feel it was a bit rude to use a fitting room to nurse if there was a line and particularly if there was a line and you were using one of two or three, not one of 10.

I'm also not entirely comfortable with the idea of nursing on a furniture display, but I'd be equally uncomfortable with giving a bottle in the same setting.

I feed basically on demand, but not without planning, e.g. Ikea isn't close, so I'd try and judge if it would be preferable to feed when I got there and get a snack for everyone else and do it in the cafe, or if it would only be a quick trip around and we'd probably make it to the small cafe at the other end. In just the same way I'd take older kids to the bathroom on arrival, because it's a big store and a long way to go if a need is suddenly announced!

I don't however enforce these notions of politeness on others, so I have a hard time accepting others differing notions of politeness being inflicted on me!

[crunchy_mommy]

Way easier to respond now that you've explained what you meant I was getting confused with my last response lol

I'm totally in agreement with you -- those aren't so much breastfeeding issues as issues of common courtesy. Ikea, for example -- the closest one is over an hour away so I rarely go -- but last time I went, I brought my wrap. I nursed him in the wrap and in the cafe. I didn't sit down on any furniture to nurse, I feel that's inappropriate -- same as you, in fact I think it's rude to sit on a display piece for any reason for more than a minute or two unless you're actually considering buying it.

Hollister (or any store), yes, same there -- if there were 10 fitting rooms & no line, I'd definitely use one to nurse if necessary, but if there were only a couple rooms and a line, I would find somewhere else.

I think these are more issues of politeness (as you've said) than BF'ing. I would not feed a bottle in those situations either. I'm not sure how I feel about other people nursing in those situations, I guess it's not my place to judge though I might think it's rude in the back of my mind... However, I have a very high-needs baby. He often BF's every 15 minutes. And if you don't feed him, he screams hysterically. Which is ruder, letting your child scream uncontrollably (not to mention how the poor baby feels!) or just sitting wherever you can find a spot (even if it's not the most appropriate place)? Of course, I personally try to plan outings around his mood & also have my wrap available but sometimes for some reason I just can't latch him properly in the wrap & we just have to run an errand.

OK sorry to go on & on. I think politeness should prevail except in extenuating circumstances & I think we are not in a place to judge what is "extenuating circumstances" for someone else.

Interesting topic!

[HollyBearsMom]

Maybe its my retail background but I don't why *anyone* would choose a fitting a room to nurse their child.

They are dirty, are rarely cleaned more than the occasional vaccum or wipe down with a dirty rag or worse sprayed to death with dysinfectant.

I guess if I had my child in the room already and was undressed maybe but I know that I always chose to leave whatever store I was in and find a nice bench in the mall. Or walk to center areas that most malls have with plants and fountains etc and nurse there.

But to the OP's question I think it just about using common courtesy.

Take the handicapped bathroom stall. If there is a big line for the bathroom where everyone is waiting to use the stalls than I go use it but if its just me I don't in case a handicapped person comes in after me. (talking about being alone-no stroller or small children in tow).

I don't use the express line with too many items, I let people ahead of me who only has a few items and I have a cart full, I move to the right on escalators, etc. Common courtesy.

I NIP everywhere and I mean everywhere but I never intentionally put someone out while doing so. Didn't take over fitting rooms, hogged a whole bench or whipped my boob out fully exposed in a restaurant. I never hid was I doing or covered up but I was discreet in public places.

I *personally* think we do more for the cause when we NIP anywhere and everywhere while still being polite about it.

[bebebradford]

Originally Posted by HollyBearsMom

Maybe its my retail background but I don't why *anyone* would choose a fitting a room to nurse their child.

They are dirty, are rarely cleaned more than the occasional vaccum or wipe down with a dirty rag or worse sprayed to death with dysinfectant.

I guess if I had my child in the room already and was undressed maybe but I know that I always chose to leave whatever store I was in and find a nice bench in the mall. Or walk to center areas that most malls have with plants and fountains etc and nurse there.

But to the OP's question I think it just about using common courtesy.

Take the handicapped bathroom stall. If there is a big line for the bathroom where everyone is waiting to use the stalls than I go use it but if its just me I don't in case a handicapped person comes in after me. (talking about being alone-no stroller or small children in tow).

I don't use the express line with too many items, I let people ahead of me who only has a few items and I have a cart full, I move to the right on escalators, etc. Common courtesy.

I NIP everywhere and I mean everywhere but I never intentionally put someone out while doing so. Didn't take over fitting rooms, hogged a whole bench or whipped my boob out fully exposed in a restaurant. I never hid was I doing or covered up but I was discreet in public places.

I *personally* think we do more for the cause when we NIP anywhere and everywhere while still being polite about it.

[pumpkin]

Sometimes having a baby means I might be a little rude. Like when it was -10 degrees with 40 mph winds I was rather forceful about making cars wait for me to cross in the parking lot because we needed to get inside FAST. Without a baby in my arms it wouldn't have been such a big deal.

I try to operate in the world with consideration to others. We ask for out of the way tables at restaurants in case she gets vocal, but we still go out. I nurse when she needs to eat, but I find a bench intended for people to rest rather than sit down on a furniture display.

I'm sure there are people who would have preferred we not nurse in the middle of the lobby at the hospital last night. However it was where we needed to be and we were using the waiting area in its intended fashion (tag teaming visiting my sister and new niece since children are banned past the waiting room).

I haven't nursed in a changing room, but we did give my nephew a bottle in one once. He suddenly decided he was starving while we were trying on clothes, there was a handy place to sit, and we were the only people in a store with 15 dressing rooms. Even then, I popped out to let the clerk know that my sister was feeding the baby so they didn't wonder what on earth was taking so long.

I guess I just haven't found it that hard to assert my rights without trampling over common courtesy. I'm sure there are people who are horrified by our nursing simply because we are nursing, but I take care not to impact them beyond the fact of seeing a baby eat.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by pumpkin

I'm sure there are people who are horrified by our nursing simply because we are nursing, but I take care not to impact them beyond the fact of seeing a baby eat.

YES! Well put. If we are being "rude" simply because we are letting people see our babies eat, I would consider that "lactivism" not rudeness

If we are being rude beyond that, well that's a lack of common courtesy.

[tanyam926]

You can't please everyone all the time.

I consider myself a thoughtful, empathetic, and compassionate person. I care about others. I am also assertive and confident in my ability to read a situation and make the best decision. This sometimes includes prayer, careful consideration of the complex nature of the situation, and most of the time it's just every day living where I am "doing my thing".

It's important to me to stay true to my values, and it is usually pretty easy to feel out a problem or conflict and be true to what I feel is important.

Now, from reading your previous threads about your situation, I think your situation is much more complex than can be answered w/your question.

Basically, there are people in your situation acting out of love, and there are those that aren't. It's not about being polite or doing the right thing. The only thing you can do is make sure you are one of the ones that are acting out of love, and let the chips fall where they may. (IMHO anyway).

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by HollyBearsMom

Maybe its my retail background but I don't why *anyone* would choose a fitting a room to nurse their child.

They are dirty, are rarely cleaned more than the occasional vaccum or wipe down with a dirty rag or worse sprayed to death with dysinfectant.

I guess if I had my child in the room already and was undressed maybe but I know that I always chose to leave whatever store I was in and find a nice bench in the mall. Or walk to center areas that most malls have with plants and fountains etc and nurse there.

But to the OP's question I think it just about using common courtesy.

Take the handicapped bathroom stall. If there is a big line for the bathroom where everyone is waiting to use the stalls than I go use it but if its just me I don't in case a handicapped person comes in after me. (talking about being alone-no stroller or small children in tow).

I don't use the express line with too many items, I let people ahead of me who only has a few items and I have a cart full, I move to the right on escalators, etc. Common courtesy.

I NIP everywhere and I mean everywhere but I never intentionally put someone out while doing so. Didn't take over fitting rooms, hogged a whole bench or whipped my boob out fully exposed in a restaurant. I never hid was I doing or covered up but I was discreet in public places.

I *personally* think we do more for the cause when we NIP anywhere and everywhere while still being polite about it.

I have had some retail jobs...and know teens who are in retail. The stories are beyond disgusting. I hate going into those rooms alone just to try something on...ick. Bodily fluids of all kinds people...all kinds....many times....cleaned by a teen making $7hr.

I also do not like how much this hollister issue has been publicized b/c I do not want people to think women have a right to nurse in a covered stall. Wow, what a right! That is way to close to "women MUST nurse in stalls."

I love the mall and go there a lot...if for nothing else then to get out of the house. I nurse all over the place, walking, sitting, eating, talking. I would never dream of nursing in a stall and I don't want people looking at me, thinking of what they heard in the news and then getting bent out of shape about it.

As for rights clashing w/ politeness...the question to ask is: why are they clashing? B/c 9 times out of 10, the other person was impolite. The right way to respond will be based on WHAT you need out of the situation. Sometimes I have responded cheekily or rudely b/c I needed to get the other person to back off. Sometimes I have responded softly b/c I thought it might help to persuade them.

I'm actually not one who likes to start off with, "Well it is my right to blah blah blah" rather I try to take whatever I was given and make a poignant "back at you" remark or turn it to humour. This causes any onlookers to realize the problem is w/ the commentator and not me. Great way to end it.

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by tanyam926

Now, from reading your previous threads about your situation, I think your situation is much more complex than can be answered w/your question.

I'm not really looking for an answer, I'm more trying to tease out various angles and to bounce ideas around on the specific angle.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

See it comes down to you personally. I see NOTHING rude about nursing on furniture at Ikea. That does not cross my mind as something anyone would find rude (although I see a few people on here seem to). So I would never NOT nurse on the furniture.

[Youngfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber

I see NOTHING rude about nursing on furniture at Ikea. That does not cross my mind as something anyone would find rude (although I see a few people on here seem to). So I would never NOT nurse on the furniture.

I hope this doesn't sound snarky...it is not!

I do think it's the wrong thing to do. It's the stores display item to feature their product. I would never use a t-shirt off the shelf at Target for a burp rag...kwim? I do believe the furniture in stores in meant to be tried out and tested but you wouldn't give a toddler a snack on one or a drink, right? I've never bottle-fed but I assume there are the same milk-all-over-the-place stuff that I deal with while bf a newborn....I wouldn't want that to get on the display couch.

I've never been denied nursing any time or any place but I do tend to be very conservative in my choice. I got big knockers so nursing takes some undressing and the like. Maybe if I had normals sized breasts and didn't have to hold my breast while nursing, I'd do it "anywhere".

OTOH, I don't nurse in Bible Study because it's a circle of unrelated people sitting close together. On Christmas Day, I nursed in the action because it was family.

[JessicaS]

I would not set out to nurse in a changing room, but I have.

If you are in the changing room and take off your shirt the baby is going to think the buffet is open and they will protest (yell) if you put it back on without giving them a snack. Unless I had someone with me to hold the baby while I tried something on I don't know how someone could get around that.


I certainly do not think it is "rude." Should someone really get dressed again and then find a spot to sit down? I thought the point was making nursing convenient.

Would I do it? Yes, I have done it multiple times and I certainly wouldn't stop nursing because an employee barged it. I would tell them to leave and I would finish. If they wanted to call security I would encourage them to do so.

If it was crowded I don't know that I would, I haven't been in Hollister.


I have not nursed on a furniture display...I haven't thought about it. I wouldn't nurse a newborn on a furniture display (mine was definitely *milk everywhere*) but it is easy to nurse a newborn in a sling.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein

I hope this doesn't sound snarky...it is not!

I do think it's the wrong thing to do. It's the stores display item to feature their product. I would never use a t-shirt off the shelf at Target for a burp rag...kwim? I do believe the furniture in stores in meant to be tried out and tested but you wouldn't give a toddler a snack on one or a drink, right? I've never bottle-fed but I assume there are the same milk-all-over-the-place stuff that I deal with while bf a newborn....I wouldn't want that to get on the display couch..

I would give a toddler a snack on a display couch and I would also give a bottle. Now if I had a puker, I might reconsider, but ds was not a puker (he rarely spit up).

I guess I should also say I would never shop at a furniture store that was one of those like BUY NOW NO PAYMENTS BLAH BLAH. I am speaking directly to IKEA, (as the only non-second hand furniture I think I've been in with ds).

Ds climbs on all the beds and couches (in his shoes no less !the horror!) with all the other kids, I would think dog poop shoes (potentially) WAY GROSSER than breast milk.

I pretty much think everytime I'm at IKEA I see someone nursing on the furniture. Personally I think that you should be required to nurse on the furniture at IKEA because it seems like 80% of the women there are pregnant! (we were just at IKEA yesterday and must have seen easily 15-20 pregnant women!)

[proudmomof4]

Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber

(...)

I pretty much think everytime I'm at IKEA I see someone nursing on the furniture. Personally I think that you should be required to nurse on the furniture at IKEA because it seems like 80% of the women there are pregnant! (we were just at IKEA yesterday and must have seen easily 15-20 pregnant women!)