"discreet" and is it ever ok to define it

[annekh23]

another question/discussion topic from me!

Years ago, I remember chatting with my parents about breastfeeding in public, I was already on to nursling number two, so I'd done it plenty and they'd seen it, I think the discussion probably began because of a law being introduced in Scotland protecting breastfeeding.

They've always said I'm discreet/modest, but at that point in time, I barely even knew nursing clothes existed, so my belly was usually on display, regardless of any bits of breast!

They are very pro breastfeeding, but qualified their views on breastfeeding in public with "as long as it's discreet", so we had an indepth discussion on what was discreet and settled on the converse of what was indiscreet, which we decided was showing the other breast, unless you also happened to be using it for a twin, or older sibling.

I suspect there was alcohol involved, but the conclusion was pretty much that you can't define discreet, so it would be hard to write a law that included that anyway, even if you wanted to, though none of us are lawyers.

Is is every ok to suggest discreet, can putting limitations on breastfeeding be pro breastfeeding?

[boobs4milk]

i've been accused of exposing myself and child molestation for bf a toddler (16 mos at the time) and i was being very discreet, imho. i think one woman's discreet is another person's indescent exposure if said person is ignorant of or opposed to bf in general.

[2lilsweetfoxes]

The issue with defining "discreet" is: what I consider discreet someone else may consider to be indiscreet. I have a very thin blanket I'll use, but won't put it over her head, more drape it over my arm. Of course, now, I'll give her a snack of crackers and juice or something to tide her over until we get to a more private spot or go home.

[Funny Face]

I do not think one can give a universal definition for discreet, nor do I want one to! I wish every nursing mother would throw 'discreet' out the window and we could hang our breast out to feed without being self conscious or worrying we'll be harassed. That is the utopian breastfeeding society I wish existed here in America.

What really chaps my hide is when people start trying to use the word 'modest' in context of nursing. Don't get me started there.

I also truly believe that most people who complain about breastfeeding and discretion have a problem with breastfeeding, not with the amount of flesh being exposed. Very few mamas show more than a small flash of skin when nursing.

[jeanine123]

I met my personal definition of discreet when I was nursing and I could give a rat's hiney whether or not someone else meets that same definition when nursing their child. It is not for me nor anyone else to decide what constitutes discreet. I don't think it's ever okay to put limits or regulations on BFing or NIP.

[SpiderMum]

I try not to use the term at all....I probably am discreet, but I don't want to say I am because it feels like I'm trying to justify what I'm doing! I don't NEED to justify anything! I'm feeding my child and if I think I'm discreet or not is irrelevant.

[Smokering]

I'd be anti-defining it, especially as breast size is so closely correlated to "modesty". I don't make any particular effort to be discreet, but I'm kinda automatically less conspicuous than a woman four cup sizes bigger than mine... there's simply less to see and DD's head covers it better!

[proudmomof4]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I'd be anti-defining it, especially as breast size is so closely correlated to "modesty". I don't make any particular effort to be discreet, but I'm kinda automatically less conspicuous than a woman four cup sizes bigger than mine... there's simply less to see and DD's head covers it better!

Snort... good one!

This doesn't really help with your question but I'd still like to add my here. The whole concept of "modesty" or "discreet nursing" seems so hypocrite to me.
If people were so concerned about modesty there would be a whole lot of other spots to start working on, wouldn't there? I suspect that more often than not this is an excuse to try to exclude women and young children. I also suspect that a lot of those comments stem from some people's issues with their own sexuality or with the feeling that they missed out on something really good when they were children themselves.
Back to your question, this would result in "No, it's not ok to reprimand a nursing mother to be discreet."

[Lil'M]

I'm not interested in defining it for others, but for me I definitely didn't have 2 breasts exposed while only feeding with one and I did my best not to show my breast without a baby attached for more than the few seconds it took to latch on. I didn't pull my breast out of the top of my shirt, but always the bottom. There were times when one of my babes was in the popping on and off phase and I often tried to find more private locations to nurse or if I was at a public bench or something, I might pull a stroller in front of me to obstruct the view somewhat, etc. I didn't like to cover with a blanket, but I would nurse in the sling sometimes and pull up the fabric to cover what was going on if babe tolerated it. I nursed my toddlers in public if I needed to (fell down and got hurt, babe melting down, etc.), but would go do it in the car or some more private place or give a snack instead if it could wait a little while.

I agree with PP that if someone has a problem with the basic act of breastfeeding, they will complain if they know it is happening, regardless of if there is anything showing or not. I recommend looking away if they don't like what they are seeing!

[PatioGardener]

Food for thought: In Ontario a woman has the right to be bare chested where ever a man has the right to be bare chested (for example, in a park, but not in a restaurant). So if a woman wanted, she could be topless in those areas, breastfeeding or not.

IMO there should be no limits on breastfeeding besides the legal right for mother and child to be in that place. While one person may take offense at an exposed stomach or a glimpse of a (gasp!) nipple when baby unlatches, another may take offense at a (gasp!) breastfeeding 2 year old.

[prothyraia]

One big problem is that isn't always *easy* to nurse "discreetly", particularly when you're new at it. A lot depends on the mom, the shape/size of her breasts, the clothing she has available, whether the babe will tolerate being covered up, whether the babe is wiggly and distractable, whether you need to watch the babe's latch carefully, whether you have over-active letdown, etc. etc. etc.

If there's pressure to nurse without showing any extra skin or flash of nipple, all of the above issues can make nursing incredibly stressful (which can inhibit letdown, even!). At which point women can start to think "This would be easier if I just used a bottle".

[GandEmama]

I don't think discreet can be defined, as many other posters have said. What one considers discreet another may see as very non discreet.
Unfortunately, where I live "discreet" typically means leaving the room to feed your baby. This kind of thinking makes breastfeeding invisible, which is very problematic for many reasons.

I don't think placing 'limitations' on breastfeeding can ever really be pro-breastfeeding unless the nursing mother herself is making these decisions for her own comfort or her babies needs. While I do think making breastfeeding "discreet" (however that is defined) runs the risk of hiding it from the world and thus not normalizing breastfeeding, some women prefer to be more discreet. It's their body and their baby. They should be able to nurse as openly or as privately as they choose without judgement.

But if these definitions of "discreet" are coming from other people suggesting a woman should be "discreet," then no, I would not consider that pro-breastfeeding in the least.

[Funny Face]

Originally Posted by SpiderMum

I try not to use the term at all....I probably am discreet, but I don't want to say I am because it feels like I'm trying to justify what I'm doing! I don't NEED to justify anything! I'm feeding my child and if I think I'm discreet or not is irrelevant.

This is how I feel too.

[annekh23]

I definitely feel it's impossible to define discreet, I have an email sat in my inbox that I need to reply to, it's a statement that breastfeeding in church be discreet and what the elders think discreet is

"elders want nursing moms to have
their breasts and under garments covered so there is no risk of exposure or distraction. (Blankets and nursing smocks are
commonly used for this purpose.) Given the worship
setting I'm sure you would agree their request is
reasonable, yes?"

I'm trying to be diplomatic and not just stomp my feet, there seems to be acknowledgement that covers don't work for everyone and are not required, but equally I don't see how I can meet "no risk of exposure" without a cover, because though with the right clothing choices I don't bare any flesh, I can't predict the moment she might suddenly delatch and throw her head back.

I also have a degree of sympathy/understanding with not wanting to see breasts, but this is the first time it's been expressed as not wanting to see undergarments, I don't generally flash them around, but I'm not sure I can always manage to avoid a glimpse. It also depends how they define undergarments, is a nursing tank an undergarment? if so I'm doomed!

[boobs4milk]

my neice goes to a very strict church and she always wore a nursing tank under a regular shirt with a button up shirt on the top. the button up shirt could be left undone and used as a 'cover up' while latching, etc. she chose cotton and light-weight knits so she wouldn't get too hot. i've followed your situation and i understand that you want to stay with this church but still promote freedom of bf?

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by boobs4milk

my neice goes to a very strict church and she always wore a nursing tank under a regular shirt with a button up shirt on the top. the button up shirt could be left undone and used as a 'cover up' while latching, etc. she chose cotton and light-weight knits so she wouldn't get too hot. i've followed your situation and i understand that you want to stay with this church but still promote freedom of bf?

I know there are strict churches, but this doesn't seem to be one, they seem to try to make an effort to be relaxed and their doesn't seem to be anyone that practices strict modest dressing, or head covering. Women often wear clothes that show their shape quite clearly, or skirts/dresses cut well above the knee. So to be very restrictive on breastfeeding, doesn't seem entirely in accordance with other demonstrations of acceptable behaviour. Behaviour at church seems to (rightly in my opinion) be exactly what is demonstrated in the rest of life, so it seems like though rules are being specifically applied to worship, that it really means all the time.

I'm having a hard time getting my own feelings straight in my head, to even formulate a response. I'd prefer something like "we encourgage you to be as discreet as is practical", which at least leaves it to each individuals comfort level.

[Funny Face]

Gosh, I don't know what I'd say to that email, I probably would have already left the church.

I'd probably be snarky and respond with "I'll worry about my boobs and my baby, you worry about yours."

Or "When will I be receiving the details of the general dress code for the entire congregation? Surely you don't mean to single out nursing mothers as the only ones providing a 'distraction'?"

I really don't have anything nice to say about the situation anymore.

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by Funny Face

Gosh, I don't know what I'd say to that email, I probably would have already left the church.

I'd probably be snarky and respond with "I'll worry about my boobs and my baby, you worry about yours."

I'd love to say that, but I don't think it's a particularly helpful thing to say!

Or "When will I be receiving the details of the general dress code for the entire congregation? Surely you don't mean to single out nursing mothers as the only ones providing a 'distraction'?"

DH is formulating a more general response to how he feels this has been handled, he's taking his time about it, but I'll take that to be a good thing, me and patience are rarely mentioned in the same sentence, I'm getting some good practice in exercising it!

I don't want to drift back over into the spiritual aspect of things, other than that to say there are times to run, but there are times to work on things too, which is why we're trying to handle it rather than run. In the end, if we move on, it would be more down to how this has been handled, not what the end result is, even if I was indisputably sinning against others, this isn't good handling and the bible gives us some pretty good instructions of how to handle that.

[zensven42]

Although anyone who wants can define "discreet", it is only their own opinion. Some people will define discreet as simply not sticking your bare privates in someone's face, but being totally nude is OK, while some people will define discreet as keeping every part of your body covered (such as with a burka). People are of course entitled to these opinions, but have no right to restrict another person's freedom because of their opinion. Defining the word "discreet" to be used in a legal context in rules and laws is restricting another's freedom and therefore should not be done. When it comes to private organizations and property, however, they can make any rules they want, as to not allow them to would be to restrict THEIR freedom. (even if you think they are being *sshats)

[annekh23]

zensven42, I like your description, I might not agree with some muslim countries stance on burkas, but at least they are upfront with that being the law.

I've finally, after multiple emails, got a statement that they do mean cover up or go to the nursing room, I'm peeved it took so many exchanges to get the rules stated, I was pretty clear in asking for a statement, but it was like getting blood out of a stone!

I don't agree, I've not taken legal advice, but a LLL leader contacted their professional liason to get any information they did have. Apparently it's dubious legally as to whether a church is a place of public accomodation, but now I've got a clear statement, it's probably worth me contacting them again to clarify some details.