advice? 5 yo "ruining" sibs artwork - Page 2

[texmati]

Originally Posted by Kirsten

First, I need to understand why you put quotes around the word ruin over and over. The five year old DID ruin her sisters' artwork. She ruined it. It isn't "ruined" - which insinuates that it is fine and your older children are overreacting. Whether five year old was trying to be mean and wreck it or not doesn't change the fact that it is wrecked. And at five, I absolutely think she knows what she is doing.

I was about to post the same thing. (I'm an oldest, btw) I would try and nip it in the bud.

[monkeys4mama]

Originally Posted by texmati

I was about to post the same thing. (I'm an oldest, btw) I would try and nip it in the bud.

Please see my second post. I'm afraid I didn't do a very good job conveying the situation in the first.

[texmati]

Originally Posted by monkeys4mama

Please see my second post. I'm afraid I didn't do a very good job conveying the situation in the first.

I'm sorry! I should have read to the end before posting!

[SunshineJ]

Honestly I think the appropriate "consequence" here is to instigate a new method of doing things. A folder for each child and/or get a dishtub to put "reusable" paper into. If the paper is in the tub, it's fair game. (Maybe you can keep this slid under the bed?) I can actually see how the current situation of doing things could cause confusion for anyone, not just the 5 yr old. The dispproportinate anger from the other child probably has little to do with this specific incident and more with the general upheaval in her life right now. I'd try something like that and clearly explain the new rules, and then see if it's still a problem. Hugs! It sound like you've got your hands full right now!

[monkeys4mama]

Originally Posted by SunshineJ

Honestly I think the appropriate "consequence" here is to instigate a new method of doing things. A folder for each child and/or get a dishtub to put "reusable" paper into. If the paper is in the tub, it's fair game. (Maybe you can keep this slid under the bed?) I can actually see how the current situation of doing things could cause confusion for anyone, not just the 5 yr old. The dispproportinate anger from the other child probably has little to do with this specific incident and more with the general upheaval in her life right now. I'd try something like that and clearly explain the new rules, and then see if it's still a problem. Hugs! It sound like you've got your hands full right now!

Yeah, maybe that's best. Rather than worrying about consequences or lack thereof, if I can make the situation more manageable and give the kids better guidelines, that's going to help everyone. More than any "lesson" I could try to teach. Right? I sure hope so. I am going to bring home some empty file folders from my workplace and each kid can have one to use.

Thanks for the supportive words. This situation is hard for all, but it's gotta get better eventually.

[CarrieMF]

If it was my kids, the 5yo would not be able to use those items for a while. She is old enough to know better than to do stuff like that just because she wants something they have. Not being able to use those items for a while(and letting her know why) is a natural consequence.

[Ravenlunatic]

I think the pp's idea of folders is excellent. THat way you can still have a 'recycle' pile and it will be clear for your 5 year old to know which pile she can freely pull from.

I thought that maybe if your 5 year old drew a picture of your other daughter or just an apology on paper, you know make it art, then maybe your older daughter will be more receptive.

I also think that lashing out at a younger sib during a time of stress and family disruption is completely normal. Maybe some additional books about your situation or some support groups? Maybe a heart to heart with your older daughter about her responsibility changes since your new family situation. How you need her to be more aware of her lashing out dramatically. I don't know how old she is so I dont' know what is appropriate.

Good Luck

[NiteNicole]

I like the idea of having a folder for special things and another pile for recyclables. If your five yo can remember to ask if something is iffy and your older children can keep special things separate, that should go a long way towards solving your problems.

I hope you all are feeling a lot less pressure soon

[Kirsten]

First, I am sorry about your current situation. I hope your mom recovers quickly and that you and your kids are able to move back to your home soon.

Originally Posted by monkeys4mama

Even when we are in our own home, we have a lot of basic art supplies which the kids are allowed to use at the kitchen table. The stash of art stuff is mostly communal. They make a LOT of pictures, most of which are forgotten immediately.

This is how we do it also. SO much art - which is great, but does generate waste which I also dislike. How about getting the 5 year old one of those things similar to an etch a sketch - the ones with a 'pen' so you can draw then slide the thing at the bottom to erase and draw again? LOVE the folder or drawer for each child idea! And how about you can only draw on the back of YOUR OWN art?

Originally Posted by monkeys4mama

the reaction from her sister seemed a bit extreme for the circumstances. She does have a tendency to react very strongly to perceived wrongs against her. When she feels hurt, she is very unforgiving and tends to lash out at others. So I'm trying to walk a fine line here. I want to hold the younger child accountable for damaging the drawing and to teach her something. But I also want the older daughter to be more understanding and forgiving. This morning, she refused to accept any apologies from her sister, even when her sister was crying. My older daughter's insistence that her little sister be punished severely was a bit disturbing.

My dd2 (middle of three girls) is like this too. I think I'd focus more on teaching the 5 year old not to do this than on trying to change how her sister feels. You can't really change someone's feelings/perception/emotion about a wrong against them, you know?

Maybe if your other dd saw you really getting serious about stopping the 5 year old from doing this, she wouldn't have to get as angry? But I also agree with another poster that the general situation right now is likely feeding into her heightened anger.

It is pretty hard to forgive when it is something the 5 year old is old enough to know not to do. I'd take it upon myself to make 5 year old understand the severity of damaging her sisters' artwork - and I'd absolutely restrict access to ALL scissors/stickers/tape/writing utensils of all types for the 5 year old. The other ones have shown good judgment and shouldn't be penalized by not having art supplies IMO.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by monkeys4mama

What art supplies we have are in a big plastic bin in the kitchen and are communal.

I haven't read the rest of the replies yet after you updated, so this may have already been said....

After reading what you wrote when you explained it all better, I can understand the confusion. My solution is to get another bin. One bin for the "free to all" paper, and the other bin for the "masterpieces." When the masterpiece bin is full, have the kids go through it and downsize (lots of things will have lost their meaning by then) and pick one or two very special things to either put in a folder or hang on the wall of your bedroom with clothesline and clothespins.

If the older kids leave a masterpiece in the free-to-all bin, well, that's their loss and hopefully a lesson learned to take better care of the things that are important to them. If the younger child takes things from the masterpiece bin to "edit" and ruin, then she needs a solid consequence like not doing art projects for awhile or something.

[LaughingHyena]

We like to use both sides of the paper too and It does cause problems when the kids don't realise that they are writing on the back of something important.

I have taken to making books (the kids call them colouring books) with the paper and they are allowed to draw in their books.

They were really easy to make, I used a sheet of card for the back and front covers (cut from a cereal box) then punched holes in the card covers and whatever paper I had to hand. Then used string to tie the whole thing together. When I get more paper I can hole punch it and add it to the back of the book and every so often we go through and take out the fully used paged.

The kids had fun personalising the covers with drawings and stickers and are pretty good at sticking to their own book.

They are easy to grab when we go out too.

[sapphire_chan]

In addition to the suggestions to make art work a supervised activity, I'd talk to the older kids about doing some art WITH the 5yo.

Like go to the store and have them all pick a color-in poster to do together (and talk with the older kids in advance that just as you were patient with them learning drawing, they'll need to know that the poster might not end up "perfect" but will still be a "good" picture.) Or have them make a garden of tissue paper flowers, where it doesn't really matter where each flower goes.

Or put a huge piece of paper on one wall to be a graffiti wall. The only rule is that you can't write over other people's drawings. You can draw inside the drawings, you can draw right next to, but not on top. Parents and guests should be encouraged to use it too.

But most importantly get the older kids in on the idea and get their ideas for ways to get the little one involved without it being a mess. And reassure them that you're also taking action to protect their individual work by making art time supervised for the 5 yo.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by LaughingHyena

We like to use both sides of the paper too and It does cause problems when the kids don't realise that they are writing on the back of something important.

How about the artist signs and dates the back of the work when it's important? With your help if they're younger? A regular pencil won't show through the other side and it'll help you identify what they really liked when it's time to decide what art to save.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by Ravenlunatic

I don't know about this. I have a 5.5 year old and I would say she understands many things, but doesn't always have impulse control. I am not saying that I totally disagree with the PP's, some sort of consequences do need to be put into place, but I don't think statements like 'she absolutely can control herself, and she is capable of respecting boundaries' are accurate. She obviously can't. Maybe she should by some standard, but I would say that my dd is in the throws of learning about boundaries and yes, some impulse control things too.

Why can't the other children's artwork always be put up? Some restriction to art supplies is necessary and again, consequences after clear communication of boundaries.

But give the kid a break for goodness sake.

I agree that she doesn't necessarily have the impulse control to keep from doing stuff she knows she shouldn't. Which is why the markers need to be supervised. Since she can't control that impulse, it needs to be set up so that a parent can help her control the impulse and guide positive and productive marker use.

Not as a punishment, not because she is "bad", but because she needs help and the family loves her and wants her to be able to do art and enjoy the art of her siblings.

[monkeys4mama]

Thank you all for so many great suggestions and for the supportive comments. I am feeling better about the situation today and have some great ideas that I think will help in our current situation and also in the future.

I talked to the girls yesterday about the folders idea and I am going to have the younger one make a picture and write "I'm sorry" for her older sister. I thought that was a great way to get the message across. And I also liked the idea of signing "special" works too, which would be like extra added insurance against art demolition. It should be relatively easy to set up a couple of art bins and some individual folders. The idea of creating some communal art projects is a fantastic one too. I hadn't thought about that, but it would sure provide a fun group activity and encourage cooperation rather than competition. (I suppose the increased sense of competitiveness I'm picking up in the kids can probably also be attributed to our circumstances too.) And temporarily revoking priveleges for some materials, like the markers, unless directly supervised also seems like a reasonable and natural consequence. I think I have some good ideas how to address these ideas on an ongoing basis.

You mamas have great ideas. Thanks so much. Oh, and even though the littlest hasn't really had any real consequences yet (they haven't done any artworks since the other day), her older sister did seem satisfied that her concerns were being heard by me and she seemed content that I was doing something about the situation. Her demand for a pound of flesh seems to have let up (thank goodness!) So I think we're getting at the goal I was hoping for. I intend to carry over these ideas when we get back into our home also since I did feel the problem wasn't entirely due to circumstances, just made worse by it.

Thank you!
Ellen

[beanma]

Glad it's better today. My suggestion was going to be: get a puppy! Everyone would quickly learn to put valuable things away then!

My 2 girls produce a prodigious amount of artwork. I instituted a folder system because I was completely overwhelmed. I still save way too much of it, but at least there's a semblance of order around it. I date the folder for each girl with the beginning date and then when it gets too full I put an end date on it and start a new folder. I found that going back through old masterpieces they were much more interesting if they had a name and date on them. For awhile I tried to put the kids' names and dates on myself, but that proved to be a pain in my butt so I moved to this folder system. I also have two big under-the-bed boxes filled with larger works.

We have way too much art, but at least it's put away now! The puppy really did help with that and picking up toys, too! You could tell them that art projects that aren't put away might end up in the recycling (in a non-threatening way, of course, just matter of factly) so if it's something they value they should put it in their special folder.

Hth and hope things ease up for you soon!

[monkeys4mama]

Originally Posted by beanma

Glad it's better today. My suggestion was going to be: get a puppy! Everyone would quickly learn to put valuable things away then!

!

Oh yeah, that would be just what I need to add to the mix right now. Yikes!
Think I'll try the folders first.